Author Topic: Oklahoma home invasion turns out bad for burglars  (Read 285 times)

Ecurb Noselrub

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Re: Oklahoma home invasion turns out bad for burglars
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2017, 11:05:49 AM »
They picked the wrong house there!
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BooksCatsEtc

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Re: Oklahoma home invasion turns out bad for burglars
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2017, 12:37:38 PM »
I don't understand why the getaway driver is being charged with first degree murder -- that seems to be stretching the definition quite a lot.
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Re: Oklahoma home invasion turns out bad for burglars
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2017, 01:06:39 PM »
I don't understand why the getaway driver is being charged with first degree murder -- that seems to be stretching the definition quite a lot.

I'm not a lawyer (I'm too nice a guy), but most states (Not sure if all) here in the US have statutes which will make it first-degree murder charges when ever a death occurs during very serious, and I believe very specific felonies, such as rape, robbery, arson, home invasion.

If it was a lesser felony than it would be second-degree murder charge.

In this case even though she was just the driver of the getaway vehicle, and not even on premises themselves where the crime took place she can still be charged with the first-degree murder; additionally even thought it was the suspects themselves who were killed and not a victim(s), as long as a death occurs during the crime.

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Re: Oklahoma home invasion turns out bad for burglars
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2017, 01:29:53 PM »
I get all that, but the hold up for me is first degree murder is deliberate and intentional.  Obviously, the home invaders were prepared to cause harm and the getaway driver was helping them, but to assume intention to commit murder as well as burglary is pushing it.  To me, the law seems to be over-stepping itself here.
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Re: Oklahoma home invasion turns out bad for burglars
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2017, 02:27:01 PM »
When it's a felony murder, intent to kill has nothing to do with it to with it if the felonies are found to be inherently dangerous to a human life, again in such cases as arson, rape, robbery, and burglary.

The intent to commit the crime or felony is what matters in these cases, not to intentionally murder someone; and all who are involved are equally responsible, even those who don't cause the death.

Anyway that's the law as I understand it, basically death occurred as the result of the crime, person(s) who would otherwise be alive are dead because said felonious crime took place.

However, I get that maybe it's your opinion that the law here is over-stepping and the woman should only be charged with crime of robbery or home invasion; possibly it will be lowered later if she can reach a deal with the prosecution?

I do wonder would you have the same opinion if that had been your home that had been broken into, and a family member of yours had been killed?

Would you still want the driver of the getaway car to say only spend several years in prison for robbery rather than first-degree murder?

Just asking as I'm curious, not trying to start anything.


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Gloucester

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Re: Oklahoma home invasion turns out bad for burglars
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2017, 02:32:36 PM »
I don't understand why the getaway driver is being charged with first degree murder -- that seems to be stretching the definition quite a lot.

I'm not a lawyer (I'm too nice a guy), but most states (Not sure if all) here in the US have statutes which will make it first-degree murder charges when ever a death occurs during very serious, and I believe very specific felonies, such as rape, robbery, arson, home invasion.

If it was a lesser felony than it would be second-degree murder charge.

In this case even though she was just the driver of the getaway vehicle, and not even on premises themselves where the crime took place she can still be charged with the first-degree murder; additionally even thought it was the suspects themselves who were killed and not a victim(s), as long as a death occurs during the crime.

If you read it that she was, "An accessory to an illegal act that resulted in the deaths of her fellow felons and thus is jointly responsible, with them,  for the circumstances that led to the occasion of their deaths," or similar tangled stuff I can see a case for her being charged with helping to murder. But that still seems a big stretch of culpability.

Later: but, yeah, how does an act of "self-defence" on the part of the first party become a "murder" for one who is, in effect, a third party - if also sn accessory. Er, um...
« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 02:57:17 PM by Gloucester »
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Re: Oklahoma home invasion turns out bad for burglars
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2017, 03:06:04 PM »
I get what they're saying with first degree murder but I feel like manslaughter is probably a more appropriate charge.

The whole story is just sad. They were just kids. The fuck were they doing?

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Re: Oklahoma home invasion turns out bad for burglars
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2017, 03:12:58 PM »
I get what they're saying with first degree murder but I feel like manslaughter is probably a more appropriate charge.

The whole story is just sad. They were just kids. The fuck were they doing?
:this:
But, uh...well there it is.


Gloucester

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Re: Oklahoma home invasion turns out bad for burglars
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2017, 03:25:06 PM »
I get what they're saying with first degree murder but I feel like manslaughter is probably a more appropriate charge.

The whole story is just sad. They were just kids. The fuck were they doing?
I am no trained psychiatrist but whst I have read and heard seems to indicate that kids can start to develop a criminal "habit" as early as 5yo. By 15 or so they are "hooked" on the activity, maybe just for its own sake.

If they are intelligent the planning of a crime has its own mental rewards, the risks give it flavour and, typically, teenagers often see themslves as having some kind of immortality. They can see and accept the risks at a sub-mature level but do not have the perception that it will happen to them.

Kids can also be addicts seeking to fund their habit.
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Pasta Chick

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Re: Oklahoma home invasion turns out bad for burglars
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2017, 03:34:57 PM »
I'd never argue that kids can't or won't do horrible violent things for any number of reasons, but I also know that kids do a lot of dumbass shit for no particular reason. I had friends in high school who were convicted of arson. Another nearly committed vehicular manslaughter (thankfully only broken bones resulted). One with a B&E and resisting arrest. My own brother got picked up with some friends robbing vehicles and vandalizing property. None of them deserve to be dead.

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Re: Oklahoma home invasion turns out bad for burglars
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2017, 05:00:54 PM »

I do wonder would you have the same opinion if that had been your home that had been broken into, and a family member of yours had been killed?

Would you still want the driver of the getaway car to say only spend several years in prison for robbery rather than first-degree murder?

Just asking as I'm curious, not trying to start anything.

I'd want to kill them myself, but I also really don't want the law based on what I'd want while emotionally over-wrought.  This is why I don't care for victim impact statements either.
Sandy

  
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Re: Oklahoma home invasion turns out bad for burglars
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2017, 05:53:39 PM »
I will side with Books. The girl getaway driver should be busted seriously but not for murder. In no case would any of the four of them have had plans to commit murder. They merely sought to complete a burglary. Well alright that the burglars had no murderous intent is an unfounded presumption.

That the burglars themselves were armed, makes the case for the home owners reaction understandable. Killing all three of them,including the one in the driveway deserves some question. I  might, probably would have, done the same in case my home was invaded and I had a fair shot at the intruders. Fear is a powerful motivator that can transcend common sense. 

After the act I might have a problem with reconciling my hasty and lethal decision. I may be an evil atheist but I do not actually harbor any desire to kill people, not even dumb kids.  Laying into them with a cat o' nine tails is a different story. They deserve to endure some not soon forgotten pain. Caneing seems to be pretty affective in Singapore. It is also more cost effective than incarcerations.

Ecurb Noselrub

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Re: Oklahoma home invasion turns out bad for burglars
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2017, 06:01:00 PM »
It's just a charge.  I doubt she will be convicted of first degree murder.  I suspect she will plead to manslaughter or some other lesser offense.  Prosecutors charges are first offers - they will usually accept less.

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Re: Oklahoma home invasion turns out bad for burglars
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2017, 11:38:28 PM »
I'd never argue that kids can't or won't do horrible violent things for any number of reasons, but I also know that kids do a lot of dumbass shit for no particular reason. I had friends in high school who were convicted of arson. Another nearly committed vehicular manslaughter (thankfully only broken bones resulted). One with a B&E and resisting arrest. My own brother got picked up with some friends robbing vehicles and vandalizing property. None of them deserve to be dead.
But, in any part of America where gun ownership is seen as "normal" and owners are prepared to use those guns in "defence" and the local law authorities are liable to accept that . . . Getting shot in the act of a crime is a high risk for the perp and should be factored in.

"Deserve" is, unfortunately, a value judgement for some. A probably less than fully mature person with access to a legally owned gun and confronted by three of a similar age, possibly one holding a knife and therefore a perceived threat. Once one is shot the others come easily in the adrenalin soaked situation, they might have weapons as well. If the "defender" was cold and calculating in his acts that might be a different manner.

All part of life, and death, in some parts of the US of A it seems from history.
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