Author Topic: The Milo finally bit the dust... Sort of.  (Read 885 times)

Asmodean

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The Milo finally bit the dust... Sort of.
« on: February 22, 2017, 09:38:03 AM »
Disclaimer: due to an immense work load, I may not frequent this thread very often, but I will respond to constructive replies where a response is called for. Every fucking time I think it's going to be quiet, shit just... Explodes. I really ought to stop using the Q-word.

Apparently, the self-proclaimed Most Fabulous Supervillain on the Internet has finally crossed one line too many and is sort-of paying for it.

For those of you who do not know about him, Milo Yiannopoulos is a British journalist and professional provocateur, often described as an Alt-Right or Far-Right Conservative. I say "Often described" because personally, I do not necessarily subscribe to the methods of labelling the guy - in my political environment, he would not be easy to pin to one side of the political spectrum. In any case, Milo is known for his anti-Feminist, anti-Muslim, Free-Speech "fundamentalist" views, his support of Trump and... Basically, for unapologetically hurting the tiny little fragile feelings of some "modern left-wingers." Do a video search and you will find out why in seconds. I recommend it, especially for those who find it easy to take offence at something someone says.

Rambling introductions aside, Milo is currently facing some backlash because of a podcast where he commented on paedophilia in a way, which could be interpreted as an endorsement of it. Now, his book deal and some speaking arrangements have been killed off, and he resigned from his editorial position with Breitbart

Personally, I am happy enough to buy his side of the story, if for very little other reason than that I don't give a shit. Then again, a "universally" agreed upon line was crossed and stuff like that does have a price in terms of PR backlash. And if it was PR alone, I would probably not even be making this thread right now as it would not have presented me with an opportune entrée...

...And this is what I was hoping to spark a discussion about; it seems to me like the Western society has become so thin-skinned and so addicted to politically correct platitude-driven bullshit, that a statement, which could have been addressed with a well-deserved "Oh, for fuck's sake, dude!" has in stead sparked enough of a shit storm that for what I think is the first time ever, the Norwegian mainstream media are featuring this guy front and centre. How the fuck did we get to this point, where somehow people assume the right never to be offended while implicitly denying others the right to just be plain wrong? A better question; how do we get out of it? Should we?

I think my views on the subject are pretty well-established, and in the case of Milo, sure, I disagree with many of his opinions, but I would not dream of "going after him" for expressing them. Disagreement is healthy. Ridicule is a useful tool, when used properly, in communicating your message. Diversity does extend to diversity of opinion, no matter how distasteful such an opinion may be to any given individual or group. I think it has also been established that my general attitude towards people who use hurt feelings as an argument is "Grow the fuck up." It has not been proven wrong yet, and every attempt thus far has been based on winged wishes and peace-on-earth bullshit.

You know, this is highly entangled with homogeny vs. diversity issue I've been pondering of late and how the more vocal proponents of cultural, ethnic, employment-related, what-have-you diversity seem to actually advocate homogeny, but enough about that, unless someone is willing to bite on this point.

So here we are... Are feelings more important than facts in the public sphere? How far should we as a society go to safeguard someone from getting offended? Is free speech only free if you are on the popular side of the issue?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 10:06:48 AM by Asmodean »
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hermes2015

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Re: The Milo finally bit the dust... Sort of.
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2017, 10:21:01 AM »
PZ Myers has some interesting things to say on the affair:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/

Dave

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Re: The Milo finally bit the dust... Sort of.
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2017, 10:28:28 AM »
There is the ever present danger that people like this attract a following - and then an attitude becomes a movement. Trump took advantage of that as did so many less than savoury leaders in history. When it gets out of hand physically society may suffer in a real way.

Humans in groups seem to be far easier to incite into active, mindless, violence rather than active, platonic, love and it often takes a single person to plant the seed.

Not being PC but I see no point in deliberately provoking anger in others unless you actually want a fight. Those who do so and then complain they are bring threatened are some kind of hypocrite, or fool. Though I abhor that kind of violence I did not feel any great surprise or sorrow over Charlie Hebdo. They provoked a response that was predictable and thus, willfully, placed themselves in actual danger of death. Might be viewed as being self-inflicted.

That another group or culture annoys us seems, to me, no grounds for "slagging them off" in public but, if one wishes to, one cannot really complain that the morals/ethics of the other group/culture allow for a disproportionate response according to your value system. Even if that response confirms some of what you say.

One day, hopefully, humanity will grow up and start acting like a race of responsible adults.
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Bad Penny II

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Re: The Milo finally bit the dust... Sort of.
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2017, 11:02:17 AM »
So here we are... Are feelings more important than facts in the public sphere?

Sometimes, maybe.


How far should we as a society go to safeguard someone from getting offended?

A reasonable distance.
Those Americans trying to bury their dead having to suffer the Westboro fucks, that's what mounted police are for.  If not why bother feeding the horses?
The different riding the bus should be afforded some protection.

Probably the offensive should have their fora but words make mad bus guys.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 11:20:08 AM by Bad Penny II »
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Bad Penny II

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Re: The Milo finally bit the dust... Sort of.
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2017, 11:27:40 AM »
There is the ever present danger that people like this attract a following - and then an attitude becomes a movement.

But if you deny them air they'll fester and produce orange pustules.
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Dave

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Re: The Milo finally bit the dust... Sort of.
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2017, 12:05:28 PM »
There is the ever present danger that people like this attract a following - and then an attitude becomes a movement.

But if you deny them air they'll fester and produce orange pustules.
That is a good point but perhaps there needs to be agreed public limits as to how far even free expression should go.
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Bad Penny II

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Re: The Milo finally bit the dust... Sort of.
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2017, 12:26:57 PM »
It's OK for the right (leftist) thinkers to call someone a red neck, to designate regions red neck.
Ye, it's OK they're too stupid to realise we're portraying them as sub human, so I say just do it.
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Asmodean

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Re: The Milo finally bit the dust... Sort of.
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2017, 12:28:22 PM »
PZ Myers has some interesting things to say on the affair:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/
It's been a long, long time since I've agreed with PZ and "his" crowd on pretty much anything new... And this time is no exception. Sort-of interesting this may be, and yes, I subscribe to the idea of ignoring people like Milo not being the best way of dealing with them. However, it sort of goes down the self-righteousness hill from there.

Quote
Weirdly, this guy is delivering his archaic and useless advice at a time when we’re finally getting through to demolish Yiannopoulos’s authority. He lost his book deal, he has just resigned from Breitbart, and none of this was accomplished by ignoring him. It was by keeping up the pressure, exposing him for what he is, and letting his own words turn him into a pariah
Authority? The points on which I agree with Milo, I do so in spite of him acting like what many perceive to be a "massive douche." Superficially, we agree on an issue or two, mostly Feminist and Social Justice crowd related stuff, so an example in exercising authority it is not. Yes, perhaps he can incite haters to hate more or some such, and yes, he more or less admits to getting off on conflict, and what precisely did you "pressure builders" do to "expose him for what he is?" Which is what, by the way? That feral dog thing? Well, so fucking what? Or, let me put it another way; why should I give a fuck? I don't care if he's the fucking love child of a cactus and Eva Braun - if he has a point, he does. If not, not, and I do care immensely for his right to have and express those points, be they real or otherwise.

Basically, my beef is this; If someone voices a point with which I agree to a large audience, I'm content as a cucumber with that. The trade-off is that I have to accept the right of someone else to voice an opinion directly opposite to the one I hold. Personally, I am not prepared to condemn someone for expressing an unpopular opinion. In this instance, and in my not-particularly-humble opinion, he did no more than that.

There is the ever present danger that people like this attract a following - and then an attitude becomes a movement. Trump took advantage of that as did so many less than savoury leaders in history. When it gets out of hand physically society may suffer in a real way.

Humans in groups seem to be far easier to incite into active, mindless, violence rather than active, platonic, love and it often takes a single person to plant the seed.
I agree. However, I am not willing to pay the price I'm being implicitly asked to pay to prevent that from happening. You don't need to shut up the fringes in order to push your centrist agenda (And yes, I'm simplifying the shades here)

Quote
Not being PC but I see no point in deliberately provoking anger in others unless you actually want a fight. Those who do so and then complain they are bring threatened are some kind of hypocrite, or fool. Though I abhor that kind of violence I did not feel any great surprise or sorrow over Charlie Hebdo. They provoked a response that was predictable and thus, willfully, placed themselves in actual danger of death. Might be viewed as being self-inflicted.
By all means. You accept the risks by playing the game. My questions tend toward the more hypothetical; by what rules would you prefer that the game was played? To his credit, Milo has not whined about being treated badly by terrible, terrible people the way many prominent public agenda pushers, largely including Charlie Hebdo, would have.

Quote
That another group or culture annoys us seems, to me, no grounds for "slagging them off" in public but, if one wishes to, one cannot really complain that the morals/ethics of the other group/culture allow for a disproportionate response according to your value system. Even if that response confirms some of what you say.
Another culture within one's own society? Fair game within the applicable laws. No different than oneself. Cultures, ideas, ideologies... I don't see circumstances under which it is "wrong" to challenge them.

But yes, I absolutely agree with you that whining over something you've been asking for is silly, not to mention hypocritical. If you are willing to be an ass, be prepared to take it in the ass. *drumroll*

Sometimes, maybe.
May it, though? Be, that is, by some sort of objective standards?

A reasonable distance.
Those Americans trying to bury their dead having to suffer the Westboro fucks, that's what mounted police are for.  If not why bother feeding the horses?
Horses make good glue, they say.

I find those picketers distasteful, but I see the answer more in bikers with flags blocking them from view than in police - be they mounted or otherwise. "God hates fags..." Hate speech? I don't know... "God hates fags and you have a responsibility to God before your fellow man" sounds hate-inciting-ish. The former version... does not.

Quote
The different riding the bus should be afforded some protection.
From collision with a drunk garbage truck? Yes. From being called a dumb fuck..? Possibly, but not necessarily. Kids and the mentally challenged follow a different set of rules. You avoid provoking them with the trade-off of them not being taken seriously on the larger sort of issues.

Quote
Probably the offensive should have their fora but words make mad bus guys.
Is it a good idea to segregate the politically incorrect from the thin-skinned though? Is it worth the price?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 12:59:11 PM by Asmodean »
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Bad Penny II

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Re: The Milo finally bit the dust... Sort of.
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2017, 12:58:35 PM »
I did not feel any great surprise or sorrow over Charlie Hebdo. They provoked a response that was predictable and thus, willfully, placed themselves in actual danger of death.

So you have to change your behaviour to placate the violent.
And if you don't you've just got it coming.
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Dave

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Re: The Milo finally bit the dust... Sort of.
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2017, 02:03:20 PM »
I did not feel any great surprise or sorrow over Charlie Hebdo. They provoked a response that was predictable and thus, willfully, placed themselves in actual danger of death.

So you have to change your behaviour to placate the violent.
And if you don't you've just got it coming.

Nope, you go into it with open eyes, with knowledge of the nature of your target and the expectation of the nature of "repraisals" consistent with the culture of that target. If the target is not of your culture, is of a culture known for its violence towards perceived insult, then do not be surprised if those reprisals are more than you might expect.

"Know your enemy", Sun Tzu (b.544BCE) "The Art of War."

"Plan for the worst", me, just now.
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Re: The Milo finally bit the dust... Sort of.
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2017, 02:04:06 PM »
I don't see a problem. The guy said something that crossed the line of what even Breitbart was uncomfortable with... that line is pretty far into bullshit town. The publisher of the book backed out, well within their rights.

I watched the guy on Bill Maher. He was offensive. He wasn't "politically correct." He was rude to fellow guests and behaved like a toddler. All of those are fine in themselves but only if the people allowing him onto their show, into their places are OK with it.

It seems like some people are trying to say that because he is intentionally offensive then we can't do anything about it because that is discrimination. I say, fuck that. Don't let bias get in the way. Just like no one has the right to not be offended, no one has the right to offend. Free speech sure, but no one is making him shut up, they're practicing their own rights of not supporting him. I don't think people should get special treatment just because they are offensive.

It seems like the natural conclusion to a person who intentionally tries to offend everyone, they end up with no one supporting them.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 02:21:38 PM by Davin »

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Re: The Milo finally bit the dust... Sort of.
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2017, 02:14:16 PM »
If Milo was just one idiot spouting off racist, xenophobic crap, I wouldn't really care. Sure, people can be far too sensitive these days. But like Gloucester said, people are easily incited. Milo's trolling of Leslie Jones, for example, likely emboldened the assholes who hacked her website and posted her private information and nude pics for everyone to see. That's beyond being an asshole, now you're being a bully and humiliating someone just because you want to provoke a reaction,trying to shame them into silence. So this is not just about being PC, in my opinion.
Along those same lines, viewing what happened at Charlie Hebdo as "self-inflicted" seems misplaced. If the argument is that people should "grow the fuck up", why not include the militant Islamists who get riled up when someone dares to make fun of their damn prophet? Seeks like a double standard. At least sensitive college students aren't murdering people.
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Re: The Milo finally bit the dust... Sort of.
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2017, 02:15:17 PM »
"Know your enemy", Sun Tzu (b.544BCE) "The Art of War."

Why did we allow our enemy amongst us?

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« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 02:34:53 PM by Bad Penny II »
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Dave

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Re: The Milo finally bit the dust... Sort of.
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2017, 02:19:04 PM »
"Know your enemy", Sun Tzu (b.544BCE) "The Art of War."

Why did we allow our enemy amongst us?

That is a whole other can of snakes.

Sun Tzu also said, "Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer" but I don't think he meant terrorists, rather political enemies.
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Re: The Milo finally bit the dust... Sort of.
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2017, 02:22:57 PM »
"Know your enemy", Sun Tzu (b.544BCE) "The Art of War."

Why did we allow our enemy amongst us?

I running for office I hope I your vote.

How fast can you run?
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