Author Topic: Evidence for God  (Read 1587 times)

Arturo

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Re: Evidence for God
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2017, 12:18:29 PM »
I see Davin and I think a few others who deconstruct these posts, so I will give it a WACK!

Hello, all.

This post is for the purpose of addressing some common questions often raised by atheists such as, Who or what is God? Why doesn't God prove his existence to me? Where is the evidence for God's existence?

The Bible is a very good place to provide a good answer.  In fact, one Bible verse covers it very well.  In 21st century English, the passage reads...

Ironically, the Bible is what turned me away from religion. Bet you didn't expect that did you?

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"...what may be known about God is clearly evident among them, for God made it clear to them.  For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship,..."  (Romans 1:19, 20).
That makes no sense.

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Thus perception plays a very important part in trying to offer an explanation concerning the Creator.
Even if you needed a certain perception to understand whatever the fuck that bible quote meant, the way most people go about it turns them into nothing more than thought police. Some are nicer than other's but they are thought police none the less. Ever hear that quote from Scarface? It went something like "How you like it huh? Every day they tell you what to do! What to think!"

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Many, perhaps most, atheists would accept as proof of the existence of God only evidence they can see, feel, touch and take apart and reassemble in a laboratory setting.  And, of course, that lab would have to be only where they would have unfettered access.

So, let us reason a bit. 

You assume that we don't reason already. And that evidences your lack of critical thinking. The thing is, we make no assumptions. And least I try not to. And even when we do, it goes to that old saying that "we make our own meaning in life".

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How would I liken the Creator?  Perhaps by looking at the problem in reverse.  Let's look at the problem from God's point of view. 

In Isaiah is a fitting description of the problem and with an element of reason comes understanding.

"There is One who dwells above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers...."  Isaiah 40:22

Could you rightly expect a grasshopper to fully explain a human or human accomplishments like the Hubble space telescope?  Or would you be humble enough to learn grasshopper speech and befriend them?  Sounds foolish, correct?  That is the dilemma. 
We've addressed this issue before. Although it was about how smart a starfish was and it's comprehension of things beyond itself. So for starters, THE EARTH IS NOT A CIRCLE! And two, grasshoppers are damn retarded, we aren't (mostly). Plus, I don't see anything about "befriending" or what have you in the quote you gave us. So again, I think you're just adding non-existing meaning to your own source material. And some people do befriend grasshoppers. Hell, I've seen some people keep praying mantises as pets.

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Further on this line of thought is the difference between humans and chimpanzees is about one percent of DNA.  On that scale what would a creature be like who was one percent greater than humans in their DNA?  If their intellect would follow the same scale, could we ever hope to understand them?  Much less be on par with them?  And yet God is orders of magnitude greater than chimpanzees or grasshopper-like humans.

The difference is, all these things actually make contact with humans. Things we can "see, feel, touch and take apart and reassemble in a laboratory setting" as you put it. And along those lines, you seem to be saying that God has not? If so, then we can reasonably say that God does not exist. A good analogy for this is from Niel Degrasse Tyson (who I also seen give your arguement). If you're looking for a bear in a certain geographical area, and you do everything to find him, but their is no evidence like paw prints or droppings, you've proven he's not there, let's move on. You know who I have seen though and does not exist? Santa. But who knows, maybe the real Santa is among those guys who sit at the shopping mall all day in December.

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And here is one item we all see without any understanding.  Something so basic it has no record anywhere in the Bible as having been created.  And that even though many think it is listed among the creations attributed to God.  And what is that?  LIFE.

The Bible tells us this at Psalm 36:9 simply that the 'source of life is God'.  Much has been hypothesized about life.  Some have speculated about life having a chemical nature.  Some have claimed that by assembling certain molecules together they have created life.  But when pressed, they admit they can not and did not create life.  It cannot be disassembled and reassembled.  Some have speculated that life is a form of energy as yet not understood.

Yes that's because we don't assume things. We look at the evidence and say it was LIKELY this might have happened, but we don't know for sure yet. Just like how casinos play games so that it is LIKELY they will win. And when you find a way to make it LIKELY you will win (counting cards) it becomes illegal.

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And there is God.  If we go back to Romans 1:20 we see it speaks about the creation as giving us insight into God.  So look at the creation.  Focus on Isaiah 40:25, 26.  "To whom can you liken me to make me his equal?” says the Holy One.

26 “Lift up your eyes to heaven and see.  Who has created these things?
It is the One who brings out their army by number; He calls them all by name.
Because of his vast dynamic energy and his awe-inspiring power, Not one of them is missing."

Science today admit every star fulfills a purpose.  Did you know we ourselves are star stuff?  And even the super heavy elements seem to come from the collision of neutron stars. So not even a single star is missing.

Let me ask you something: Why do you think it is a WHO that made everything?

Science also tells us eventually the universe itself will run down.  Over 3000 years ago the Psalmist spoke of an immense maintenance project needed to fix the universe itself.  Read for yourself Psalm 102:25-27.  Makes for very interesting reading. 

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Oh.  And DNA;  Look at Psalm 139:16.  "Your eyes even saw me as an embryo;  All its parts were written in your book  Regarding the days when they were formed,  Before any of them existed.'  Written more than 3,000 years before we had amassed enough knowledge on our own to understand, how would you explain that passage?

It actually says "Your eyes saw my unformed body". This is from a quick internet search and confirmed by multiple sources. I could pull out my own Bible, but it's in the attic, and it's cold up there. I don't even know how the mice live there.

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So, for a lowly human to define in human terms a being vastly more complex with knowledge and the ability to make and use forces beyond our comprehension, is at best an exercise in futility. 

The same could be said about aliens. How do we know ALIENS aren't watching us? How do we know god isn't and ALIEN? Why? Because aliens.

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But a few things I do know.   The Bible provides compelling evidence that God exists. It encourages us to build faith in God, not by blindly believing religious assertions, but by using our “power of reason” and “mental perception.” 

I think I've effectively invalidated all of your arguments, so therefore this final one is invalid by default.

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The existence of an orderly universe containing life points to a Creator.

The Bible says: “Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but the one who constructed all things is God.” (Hebrews 3:4)
Making assumptions again...

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Although this logic is simple, many well-educated people find it to be powerful.   For example, the late astronomer Allan Sandage once said regarding the universe: “I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery, but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing.”

Logic is only simple for those too dumb to use it effectively. Example, "why is there something instead of nothing? Because God!" That wasn't hard. Just because this guy was an astronomer, it doesn't make him all knowing. There are plenty of things he didn't know.

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Bible writers had scientific knowledge that was beyond the understanding of their contemporaries. For example, in ancient times many peoples believed that the earth was supported by an animal, such as an elephant, a boar, or an ox. In contrast, the Bible says that God is “suspending the earth upon nothing.” (Job 26:7) Similarly, the Bible correctly describes the shape of the earth as a “sphere,” or “globe. or circle  (Isaiah 40:22) Many people feel that the most reasonable explanation for such advanced understanding is that Bible writers received their information from God.

It sounds like maybe the writers just copied the animal supporting idea? It also sounds like you need to go back to school and learn what a circle is and how it's different from a sphere.

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The Bible answers many difficult questions, the type of questions that when not satisfactorily answered can lead a person to atheism. For example: If God is loving and all-powerful, why is there suffering and evil in the world? Why is Religion so often an influence for bad rather than for good?  See  Titus 1:6  Could it be the unsatisfactory answers to questions has caused you to be where you are?
No.


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So have I completely answered the questions posed?  Probably not. However, at the same time, I  hope I have raised questions that honest, open-minded individuals will seek answers to.
You can ask me and I promise to try and answer your questions using reason, logic and the Bible. I like a good challenge.

You have shown me, lack of reason, logic, and knowledge of the Bible. Your argument is invalid. Good day sir.
But, uh...well there it is.
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Asmodean

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Re: Evidence for God
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2017, 01:47:46 PM »
Let me ask you something: Why do you think it is a WHO that made everything?
Oh, now you've done it..! Maybe. Do you really want to hear them tired old excuses for why gods are not unnecessary gap-dwelling figments of underdeveloped imagination?!
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Re: Evidence for God
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2017, 02:10:14 PM »
Bob:
using reason, logic and the Bible.

Is that even a sentence? Can those words even be used together in that manner?

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Re: Evidence for God
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2017, 02:28:42 PM »
Bob:
using reason, logic and the Bible.

Is that even a sentence? Can those words even be used together in that manner?

Does "oxymoron" fit the circumstance?
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Icarus

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Re: Evidence for God
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2017, 07:54:10 PM »
Bob, welcome to the forum is the usual greeting. In your case It seems that you have disturbed a hornets nest.

Your main line of reasoning, if reasoning is the applicable word here, is some kind of reverence toward "the Bible" as an authoritative source of some kind.  What you and damned near every Christian out there seems unaware of is that....the bible was not originally written in English. It was translated innumerable times, revised innumerable times, In the first 1500 hundred years the only way to copy whatever texts existed was by a scribe with a pen and ink. Do You suppose that they ever made a mistake? COpies of the texts were copies... of copies...... of copies........are you getting the idea?  You are of course aware that the most often used bible is the King James Version or offshoots of the "version".  You will also know that that particular bible was a compilation of work by a committee of 54 men in the years nearest 1610. The 54 were presumed to be scholars and were directed by King James who was not satisfied with the previous catholic leaning religious book of his sister Elizabeth. 

The bible, KJV, NIV, NER,  CEV,   GNB,  NAB,  NRSV,   REV,   and all those other variations that are in use today cannot be relied upon as to be the inerrant word of god.  SO please do not insult our intelligence by claiming the "bible" is some kind of authority. Did you even know that there are so many variations of your good book? 

While I am at it let me suggest to you that the concept of the Jesus person is as likely, perhaps more likely, to be a Human invention as it is to be a historical reality. 

I apologize to you for being so blunt about the way the world really is. The fact is that you have blundered onto a forum where the participants are intellectually superior to the mainline Jesus person. There are exceptions. We have some Christians here who are held in highest esteem and are skilled in the art of reasoning.   They are educated Christians who are not likely to be beguiled by some snake oil preacher person or a  would be holy book that is so full of contradictions..

Arturo

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Re: Evidence for God
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2017, 08:52:53 PM »
Let me ask you something: Why do you think it is a WHO that made everything?
Oh, now you've done it..! Maybe. Do you really want to hear them tired old excuses for why gods are not unnecessary gap-dwelling figments of underdeveloped imagination?!

I just want them to reflect on their possibly terrible life of how they were forced to believe this shit. "Mommy made me read the bible every time I got in trouble and now it's my central pillar in my shit life"
But, uh...well there it is.
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Re: Evidence for God
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2017, 07:07:48 AM »
Hello, all.
......
In Isaiah is a fitting description of the problem and with an element of reason comes understanding.

"There is One who dwells above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers...."  Isaiah 40:22

Could you rightly expect a grasshopper to fully explain a human or human accomplishments like the Hubble space telescope?  Or would you be humble enough to learn grasshopper speech and befriend them?  Sounds foolish, correct?  That is the dilemma. 

Further on this line of thought is the difference between humans and chimpanzees is about one percent of DNA.  On that scale what would a creature be like who was one percent greater than humans in their DNA?  If their intellect would follow the same scale, could we ever hope to understand them?  Much less be on par with them?  And yet God is orders of magnitude greater than chimpanzees or grasshopper-like humans.

So, for a lowly human to define in human terms a being vastly more complex with knowledge and the ability to make and use forces beyond our comprehension, is at best an exercise in futility. 
.........
So have I completely answered the questions posed?  Probably not. However, at the same time, I  hope I have raised questions that honest, open-minded individuals will seek answers to.
You can ask me and I promise to try and answer your questions using reason, logic and the Bible. I like a good challenge.
Hello Bob, you promised to answer our questions, but if you don't hurry up and address some of these posts, you are likely to get overwhelmed! Chop chop!
And I must add my two cents to this conversation. I would love to have a conversation with you in person, because I hate reasoning-while-typing. It takes too long. But I will just address the grasshopper issue. Let me just begin by telling you that I was a very, very strong Christian for 35 years. All of these arguments that you present, I have presented at one time or another to other people, so I really know where you're coming from. And I assume it is from a place of genuine caring for our souls, as that was where I was coming from too.
So here is my question: if we are as grasshoppers, and God is so all-knowing and powerful, why doesn't he show himself in ways that we can understand and be sure of? I'm not talking about Jesus coming to "show us the way", I'm talking about real-time, something that we could look at and say, Of course, that's God! You may say, as you like to use the Bible, that the things of God are clearly seen. But the problem is, Bob, that they are not clearly seen. Every "evidence" for God in this world can also be attributed to what we might call nature. There's nothing that has been made or that has happened that can only be attributed to God. There are natural explanations for absolutely everything, whether it is modern-day miracles or the world we see around us. If our souls are in jeopardy of eternal hell fire, why why why wouldn't God speak to us and show us himself in ways that we understand? He should know what would do it for us individually and as a human race. He should know exactly what it would take for everyone to believe. And he should know also that some elusive Son of God 2000 years ago or nature as we see it today, is not going to cut it for a huge number of his beloved children. If he was God, he should be able to fix this! Especially when people beg to know him, and search for him endlessly.
And please don't give me crap about "If God were to show himself TOO clearly, it would take away our free will!" Not buying it. Apparently Satan lived with God and could see him and touch him and hang out with him, and yet he still rebelled and made the wrong choice. So obviously "free will" isn't a thing to God. (As evidenced by the lack of mention in the Bible) 
Please fulfill your promise, Bob, and answer our questions!
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. ~ Plato (?)

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Re: Evidence for God
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2017, 12:13:32 PM »
Hello, all.
......
In Isaiah is a fitting description of the problem and with an element of reason comes understanding.

"There is One who dwells above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers...."  Isaiah 40:22

Could you rightly expect a grasshopper to fully explain a human or human accomplishments like the Hubble space telescope?  Or would you be humble enough to learn grasshopper speech and befriend them?  Sounds foolish, correct?  That is the dilemma. 

Further on this line of thought is the difference between humans and chimpanzees is about one percent of DNA.  On that scale what would a creature be like who was one percent greater than humans in their DNA?  If their intellect would follow the same scale, could we ever hope to understand them?  Much less be on par with them?  And yet God is orders of magnitude greater than chimpanzees or grasshopper-like humans.

So, for a lowly human to define in human terms a being vastly more complex with knowledge and the ability to make and use forces beyond our comprehension, is at best an exercise in futility. 
.........
So have I completely answered the questions posed?  Probably not. However, at the same time, I  hope I have raised questions that honest, open-minded individuals will seek answers to.
You can ask me and I promise to try and answer your questions using reason, logic and the Bible. I like a good challenge.
Hello Bob, you promised to answer our questions, but if you don't hurry up and address some of these posts, you are likely to get overwhelmed! Chop chop!
And I must add my two cents to this conversation. I would love to have a conversation with you in person, because I hate reasoning-while-typing. It takes too long. But I will just address the grasshopper issue. Let me just begin by telling you that I was a very, very strong Christian for 35 years. All of these arguments that you present, I have presented at one time or another to other people, so I really know where you're coming from. And I assume it is from a place of genuine caring for our souls, as that was where I was coming from too.
So here is my question: if we are as grasshoppers, and God is so all-knowing and powerful, why doesn't he show himself in ways that we can understand and be sure of? I'm not talking about Jesus coming to "show us the way", I'm talking about real-time, something that we could look at and say, Of course, that's God! You may say, as you like to use the Bible, that the things of God are clearly seen. But the problem is, Bob, that they are not clearly seen. Every "evidence" for God in this world can also be attributed to what we might call nature. There's nothing that has been made or that has happened that can only be attributed to God. There are natural explanations for absolutely everything, whether it is modern-day miracles or the world we see around us. If our souls are in jeopardy of eternal hell fire, why why why wouldn't God speak to us and show us himself in ways that we understand? He should know what would do it for us individually and as a human race. He should know exactly what it would take for everyone to believe. And he should know also that some elusive Son of God 2000 years ago or nature as we see it today, is not going to cut it for a huge number of his beloved children. If he was God, he should be able to fix this! Especially when people beg to know him, and search for him endlessly.
And please don't give me crap about "If God were to show himself TOO clearly, it would take away our free will!" Not buying it. Apparently Satan lived with God and could see him and touch him and hang out with him, and yet he still rebelled and made the wrong choice. So obviously "free will" isn't a thing to God. (As evidenced by the lack of mention in the Bible) 
Please fulfill your promise, Bob, and answer our questions!

I think I just fell in love. And not with Bob!
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Re: Evidence for God
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2017, 12:25:40 PM »

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“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

Epicurus
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Arturo

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Re: Evidence for God
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2017, 12:53:00 PM »
But, uh...well there it is.
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Re: Evidence for God
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2017, 02:33:19 PM »
I think I just fell in love. And not with Bob!
:cheersfortwo:
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Re: Evidence for God
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2017, 07:00:04 PM »
^^^^ Me too Tank.

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Re: Evidence for God
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2017, 07:11:31 PM »

 Let me just begin by telling you that I was a very, very strong Christian for 35 years...... He should know exactly what it would take for everyone to believe. And he should know also that some elusive Son of God 2000 years ago or nature as we see it today, is not going to cut it for a huge number of his beloved children. If he was God, he should be able to fix this! Especially when people beg to know him, and search for him endlessly.

I have a question: if you were a very, very strong Christian for 35 years, did you not have exactly what it took for someone to believe?  You did believe for 35 years.  What was insufficient during that time regarding God's presentation to you?   

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Re: Evidence for God
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2017, 08:16:50 PM »
Oh, dear Ecurb, that there is a big, fat, nasty hornet's nest of a question. That answer is a BOOK.  But let me see if I can be very abbreviated, yet still fairly thorough.......
First, the entire subject of the Holy Spirit was really bothering me , how the Spirit of God was supposed to teach us and guide us into God's will and understanding, yet everyone, even people in the same denomination, the same church (!) disagreed about really important things. Spiritual matters that were on opposite sides of the spectrum. Also, the Holy Spirit was supposed to be changing lives and helping us to be morally strong,  yet I never saw a truly transformed life. There were a few that gave grand testimonies of how God had changed them, but after a couple years, the glowy Jesus-rush wore off and they were pretty much the same as before. And the wives I had tearfully confide in me about their husbands' "porn addiction" or infidelities..... I would wonder what good the holy spirit was, if he couldn't handle these common issues. After all, it was supposed to be the very spirit of the Living God, the creator of the universe. And the Bible promised every Christian would receive this gift of the Holy Spirit living within us.
My other pretty major problem was prayer. I have heard SO MANY excuses for God in this area. It's a common saying in church that "God answers every prayer. Sometimes it's yes, sometimes it's no, and sometimes it's wait." But I pretty much felt like God was totally ignoring me. I couldn't understand why he seemed to answer everyone's prayers but mine. I prayed the right way, according to the Bible (Oh yes, there is a right way and a wrong way). And I started realizing that every answered prayer was something that would have happened anyway. Nothing ever happened that wouldn't have happened anyway. 
It got me questioning. Cautiously and fearfully and privately. After all, my eternal salvation was on the line. My family, my friends, my past, my future, the foundation of my life.
Then I got inspired. I thought, if God is God, and He is Truth, then He and his Word should stand up to any scrutiny. So all my reading,  all my research, all my questioning, I brought to God. I prayed and begged him to show me His answers to these things I was learning. And you know what I got?
Silence.
Nothing. 
And then there's a very painful part of this story that I shall skip over, because even though I'm fine now, the pain was so deep, the loneliness and feelings of betrayal so strong, that it hurts even now to think too much about.
I learned so much, not the least of which, was to actually be ok questioning and then admitting that I do not know, and being ok with that.
I can't believe I just wrote all that. There was so much more that "was insufficient during that time regarding God's presentation" to me, but those are the basics.  ;)
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. ~ Plato (?)

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Re: Evidence for God
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2017, 08:58:24 PM »
I can relate to your story, being led to believe something that turned out to be a total lie.
But, uh...well there it is.
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