Homosexuality and Christianity | Split from TWC Introduction Thread

[AnimatedDirt]

First, let me bury the hatchet immediately.  I have my issues, but, in the spirit of what Recusant wrote, that does not mean I need to make AnimatedDirt think my way.  It takes two to tango (sorry for all the cliches), so I take responsibility for my actions and accept any reprimand.

I just didn't expect such a post from out of left field in a safe zone of the board, for lack of a better term.  Crow nailed what I felt in his post.

I am at work now and have to teach again soon, so I cannot spend too much time here.  However, tonight or tomorrow I will work on putting something in my signature that says I am happy to talk to and even be supportive of Christians as well as atheists here, but that, at this time in my life, I am not going to debate homosexuality/my biology with anyone or be preached to/told I need Jesus to save me from sin.  That said, I will always answer questions about being gay/my experiences and add information about a variety of topics when I feel I have something non-controversial to say.  That is as far as I can go.

I wish I had the stamina (maturity?) to debate homosexuality and other issues with Christians, but a lot of Christians have done a lot of abusive things to me--especially when I was young and intimidated into obeying Jesus and "being" heterosexual.  I am also currently in a situation where I have to deal with an abusive Christian in order to carry out volunteer work, and as soon as I say something like "That's one way of looking at gay issues but not the only way" I am accused of attacking her religion since what she believes is "Truth"  with a capital T and comes from "experience of God, not theory."  Should I leave this position, I will be abandoning people who depend on me.  

For these and many other reasons, I simply cannot deal with Bible-based debate on homosexuality in an appropriate way.  (To some extent, I cannot deal with Christians unless I know them very well and they have proven to me that they will never pull a Bible card.) I wish the situation were different; given my age, I also wish I were different--but this is who I am.  I want to be on this board, and I admit my limitations.  It was intention when I joined not to engage in debate here.

I won't lie.  I joined this board because I could not find an LGBT atheist board (preferably one that also included straight allies).  No such board exists, and when a search brought up both "The Happy Atheist" and "The Arrogant Atheist," among other boards, I went for the non-arrogant one.  I can be quite arrogant, actually, and that is something I do not wish to indulge in here.

I hope you can all understand this, and I invite the moderators to let me know at any time if I say or do something inappropriate.

This Christian was not debating you or homosexuality nor did I attack you that you should feel unsafe.

It seems you cannot do what you claimed...that if I accept you as you are you would do the same and accept me.

You simply cannot accept that I am Christian AND accept you the way you are.  C'est la vie

[Stevil]

Also, too often (again, speaking about my real life) I am cast in the villain's role for daring to stand up for gay people/myself.  I really don't want to be in that role on an atheist board I have just joined

TWC, not that I don't think you aren't capable of standing up for yourself, but there are many non gay members of this forum that will gladly stand up for (support) you, and your sexual preferences (be it natural or simply personal preference). There are many gay or bisexual members here as well.

I do however think that AD was being upfront and honest about his position. I don't think he was telling you off, telling you to cease and desist or anything. AD believes what he has been taught, and although I greatly disagree with his beliefs and I struggle to understand how a person can respect others whom they think are "living in sin", I also acknowledge that AD has an honorable position of not wanting government to force Christian morality onto society. I am hoping this would mean that AD would support gay marriage in the secular realm should a referendum be made.
Now that AD has revealed his position, disclosed it so that you are aware and understand whom you are talking to, I expect him not to have the need to tell you what you already know about him.

[DeterminedJuliet]

I agree with Stevil, by and large I think this is a pretty LGBT friendly place.

[Firebird]

I agree with Stevil, by and large I think this is a pretty LGBT friendly place.

Agreed. TWC, don't be scared off by any of this. Sometimes we have heated debates or disagreements, but this is a very supportive and fun community, and very LGBT friendly as far as I can tell.

[AnimatedDirt]

although I greatly disagree with his beliefs and I struggle to understand how a person can respect others whom they think are "living in sin",

I don't understand the struggle to understand.  I respect myself, yet I understand I also fall short ( in context of my religious beliefs ) and sin.  I can't help it.  It's in my nature.  ( In context ) Every single person on earth is "living in sin".  There is no greater or lesser sins.  All sin is sin and from the "least" of it ( humanly perceived ) to the "greatest" of it ( again humanly perceived ), it is all sin and makes one unrighteous.  All are sinful.  Therefore I am no better a person because I am not/do not ( insert sin here ) and shouldn't be among those that think themselves better than another simply because they/we don't do ( insert sin here ) because I am sinful too...I am in the same boat, so to speak, in context.  The atheist may not hold the same beliefs as me, and is free to disagree with my moral code of from where I get it, but the atheist cannot say that AD thinks himself better ( sinless ) because he is Christian.  That is far from the truth.

I also acknowledge that AD has an honorable position of not wanting government to force Christian morality onto society. I am hoping this would mean that AD would support gay marriage in the secular realm should a referendum be made.

Of course I support gay marriage as gay marriage ( I don't think ) is looking to be anything but equal to heterosexual marriage in the civil sense within secular society.  Or am I mistaken?

[Stevil]

I don't understand the struggle to understand.  I respect myself, yet I understand I also fall short ( in context of my religious beliefs ) and sin.  I can't help it.  It's in my nature.  ( In context ) Every single person on earth is "living in sin".  There is no greater or lesser sins.  All sin is sin and from the "least" of it ( humanly perceived ) to the "greatest" of it ( again humanly perceived ), it is all sin and makes one unrighteous.  All are sinful.  Therefore I am no better a person because I am not/do not ( insert sin here ) and shouldn't be among those that think themselves better than another simply because they/we don't do ( insert sin here ) because I am sinful too...I am in the same boat, so to speak, in context.  The atheist may not hold the same beliefs as me, and is free to disagree with my moral code of from where I get it, but the atheist cannot say that AD thinks himself better ( sinless ) because he is Christian.  That is far from the truth.

I perceive having lack of judgement as better than being OK with the "sins" of others.
I don't even know why a person feels at liberty to make a moral judgement on what someone else does in the privacy of their bedroom.
It's simply a case of MYOB isn't it? If gods exist and they deem it as a sin, then let them make the judgement.
As far as us humans are concerned, if it don't impact us, we ought to mind our own business.

So with this in mind, is it possible for you to have an opinion of, "I'm told god considers it a sin, but I myself am to be judged by god, it is not my place to judge on god's behalf.", If this were your opinion then you wouldn't even state that you consider homosexuality to be a sin.

Please don't respond to this though, I am hopefully giving you food for thought, I acknowledge you don't need nor appreciate me TELLING you what your opinion OUGHT to be.

I do think that if a gay person were told only once by every Christian that homosexuality is a sin then this gay person will see Christians as a collective and will become feed up of being told "all the time" that they don't agree with this person's "lifestyle"

I also acknowledge that AD has an honorable position of not wanting government to force Christian morality onto society. I am hoping this would mean that AD would support gay marriage in the secular realm should a referendum be made.

Of course I support gay marriage as gay marriage ( I don't think ) is looking to be anything but equal to heterosexual marriage in the civil sense within secular society.  Or am I mistaken?

I assume gay people want to be treated as people rather than as "gay". People get married to their loved ones and are recognised as forming a family by society and law, why should gay people be excluded from this?

[TheWalkingContradiction]

This Christian was not debating you or homosexuality nor did I attack you that you should feel unsafe.

It seems you cannot do what you claimed...that if I accept you as you are you would do the same and accept me.

You simply cannot accept that I am Christian AND accept you the way you are.  C'est la vie

Why are you posting like this?  I don't get it.  

I did say bury the hatchet and I meant it.  But you sound like you are... gloating.  How can I possibly feel safe and comfortable around you?  

Your first sentence: Maybe yes, maybe no.  I don't know you.  I can only judge you by the way you treat people (myself included) on the board.  If you do want to get along, calling me a sinner and preaching about Jesus in your second post to me and on my second day on the board is not the way to do it, especially since I had already discussed my abuse at the hands of Christians in the introduction.  

In my first response to you, which is the first post in this thread, I spoke about a colleague who, in the first 30 seconds of getting to know me in real life, told me her minister was gay and against Fundamentalists.  That, too, was insincere; it was an attempt to make herself look good and make me admire her.  A person can be pro-gay and have a gay minister, but that does mean the person has depth or empathy.  I am reminded of what an African American speaker once said.  Paraphrasing: There was this white girl I had become friendly with in college, and when her mother came to visit, she said, "Look, Ma.  I have a black friend."  Her mother hugged her and said, "I'm so proud of you!"

Imagine if a devil worshipper went to a Christian board, found a Christian who had been abused by devil worshipers, and, in his second post to that Christian on that Christian's second day on the board--while the Christian was posting in a section on the Christian board that was advertised as free of debate and free of devil worshippers causing problems (one of the reasons the Christian had chosen that board)--the devil worshipper told the Christian: "Satan loves you.  Go back to your true master."

Even if that devil worshipper were a hot gay atheist who loved Star Trek and wanted me in bed, I would take the Christian's side and shun the hot guy.  Doing something like he did is just plain wrong.

If you want to get to know me and get along, don't try to prove anything Christian or otherwise, and don't talk to me about Jesus.  (Respect has to be earned.)  In turn, I won't talk to you about atheism.  Ask me about science ficton, art, music, books, my cat, what foods I like, places I like to visit, the joy of teaching...

Your second and third sentence: I can and do accept and support many Christians.  Let's see...

1. I have helped gay Christians to accept who they are while never trying to deconvert them or saying derogatory things about their religion.  I work on deconversion only when specifically asked.  I understand that for many gays, faith matters.  

2. I support my parents and sister in their faith and have even assisted them in church-oriented projects.  

3. I protect Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Buddhists in my classroom from attack for the same reason I protect atheists from attack.

4. I have been outspoken in making sure that we continue to have a prayer room in the building in which I teach at my university, and I have expressed my great displeasure at its being called a (politically correct) "contemplation room" instead of a "prayer room."  

I don't have an issue with your being Christian.  I have an issue with how you have interacted with me.  If your interaction continues in this fashion, I will never accept you--as a person, not as a Christian.

On the other hand, if you respect my limitations and tell me which of your limitations I need to respect, we might become good friends.  I am not ready to write you off because of one or two missteps with me.

To everyone:

Thank you very, very much to all the people who heard my pain and posted support.  This does indeed say something about this board.  

I will not join in any further discussion of homosexuality as a debate in this thread, and I will not respond to any attempts to cajole me into a debate.  I am, however, willing to answer any questions on my experience as a gay person and the experience of other gay people as long as they are for the purpose of gaining information or awareness only.

[technolud]

tC

Here is the bottom line: If you (generic you) have issues with gay sex, then fine: Don't engage in gay sex.  If you are against gay marriage, then don't marry someone gay.

Exactly!

TWC, you should stick around for a while.  This forum isn't about gay or straight.  I think 99.9% ofthe members here would agree that any act between willing partners is fine.

We're more about discovering meaningful athiest existance in a primarily  theist world.  

Jump in.

[Ali]

TWC - First of all, I don't think I ever gave you a proper welcome.  So welcome, and so glad you could join us.  You mentioned teaching, what do you teach?

Second of all - I agree with whoever said that things have been weird around here the past couple of days.  We are usually a very open, accepting, tight knit community, but things have just been a little crazy the past couple of days.  I'm hoping we all get back to normal, stat.

I think you'll find, for the most part, that we are very LGBT friendly, but I totally respect that if someone says something that bugs you or strikes the wrong cord with you, that you call it out (in a respectful way, preferably  )  We all have room to grow and learn, and fresh perspectives are always welcome.

You know what you said that I love?  

I am not going to debate homosexuality/my biology with anyone.

Word.  It's so simple but weirdly powerful to say "This is not up for debate."  I'm going to have to remember that for future use.

Anyway, welcome, and please know that we usually live up to our "Happy Atheist" name.  Stick around for a while, you'll see.  

[McQ]

This Christian was not debating you or homosexuality nor did I attack you that you should feel unsafe.

It seems you cannot do what you claimed...that if I accept you as you are you would do the same and accept me.

You simply cannot accept that I am Christian AND accept you the way you are.  C'est la vie

Why are you posting like this?  I don't get it.  

I did say bury the hatchet and I meant it.  But you sound like you are... gloating.  How can I possibly feel safe and comfortable around you?  

Your first sentence: Maybe yes, maybe no.  I don't know you.  I can only judge you by the way you treat people (myself included) on the board.  If you do want to get along, calling me a sinner and preaching about Jesus in your second post to me and on my second day on the board is not the way to do it, especially since I had already discussed my abuse at the hands of Christians in the introduction.  

In my first response to you, which is the first post in this thread, I spoke about a colleague who, in the first 30 seconds of getting to know me in real life, told me her minister was gay and against Fundamentalists.  That, too, was insincere; it was an attempt to make herself look good and make me admire her.  A person can be pro-gay and have a gay minister, but that does mean the person has depth or empathy.  I am reminded of what an African American speaker once said.  Paraphrasing: There was this white girl I had become friendly with in college, and when her mother came to visit, she said, "Look, Ma.  I have a black friend."  Her mother hugged her and said, "I'm so proud of you!"

Imagine if a devil worshipper went to a Christian board, found a Christian who had been abused by devil worshipers, and, in his second post to that Christian on that Christian's second day on the board--while the Christian was posting in a section on the Christian board that was advertised as free of debate and free of devil worshippers causing problems (one of the reasons the Christian had chosen that board)--the devil worshipper told the Christian: "Satan loves you.  Go back to your true master."

Even if that devil worshipper were a hot gay atheist who loved Star Trek and wanted me in bed, I would take the Christian's side and shun the hot guy.  Doing something like he did is just plain wrong.

If you want to get to know me and get along, don't try to prove anything Christian or otherwise, and don't talk to me about Jesus.  (Respect has to be earned.)  In turn, I won't talk to you about atheism.  Ask me about science ficton, art, music, books, my cat, what foods I like, places I like to visit, the joy of teaching...

Your second and third sentence: I can and do accept and support many Christians.  Let's see...

1. I have helped gay Christians to accept who they are while never trying to deconvert them or saying derogatory things about their religion.  I work on deconversion only when specifically asked.  I understand that for many gays, faith matters.  

2. I support my parents and sister in their faith and have even assisted them in church-oriented projects.  

3. I protect Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Buddhists in my classroom from attack for the same reason I protect atheists from attack.

4. I have been outspoken in making sure that we continue to have a prayer room in the building in which I teach at my university, and I have expressed my great displeasure at its being called a (politically correct) "contemplation room" instead of a "prayer room."  

I don't have an issue with your being Christian.  I have an issue with how you have interacted with me.  If your interaction continues in this fashion, I will never accept you--as a person, not as a Christian.

On the other hand, if you respect my limitations and tell me which of your limitations I need to respect, we might become good friends.  I am not ready to write you off because of one or two missteps with me.

To everyone:

Thank you very, very much to all the people who heard my pain and posted support.  This does indeed say something about this board.  

I will not join in any further discussion of homosexuality as a debate in this thread, and I will not respond to any attempts to cajole me into a debate.  I am, however, willing to answer any questions on my experience as a gay person and the experience of other gay people as long as they are for the purpose of gaining information or awareness only.

First, welcome to the forum. Glad to have you here.

Second, you are very new here, and as such, don't yet have an undstanding of all the members, the nuances of how this forum works, and how it is moderated. So it's natural to be sort of at a loss at first with how to respond to members.

But let me give you my take so far on this issue, and you can take it for what it is worth. I have found AD to be honest, up front and (as a distinct minority here) someone who has had to put up with way more crap than you or most anyone else here. People have piled on him more than any member I can think of in this board's history, and he has done a better job of dealing with it than I would have.

In my opinion, you need to stop going back and forth with this and not fan the flames of the thread more than has been done. You received an honest opinion from AD. You don't have to like it, but he was not gloating or being disingenuous.

Take your time, don't parse every word or look for fights where they don't exist. I think you have gone too far with your assertion that AD has said anything that should make you feel "unsafe". That is tantamount to saying that he threatened you, and that did not happen.

Just relax and enjoy the forum. As has been said, this place isn't about gay or straight (or race, or anything other than atheist). And it is all-inclusive.

We all have to expect that some aspect of our lives don't meet with the approval of everyone. That's life. We deal with it every day as atheists (the most distrusted group in America).

Let's move on please, and just chill out.

[TheWalkingContradiction]

Thank you to the three of you as well.

I am not about to jump ship.  I just have to figure out a way to be on this board that won't make my blood pressure rise, which probably means sticking mostly to the safe sections and not being controversial.

Ali asked about teaching: I teach four ESL (English as a Second Language) classes a semester (Spring, Fall, Summer-1 and Summer-2)  to university students.  Although I do teach at least one beginners or low level class a semester, most of my students in my other classes already speak everyday English (with errors) but need to bring it up to academic English quickly.  In the spring and fall I also teach a speech communication course to fluent graduate students from all disciplines.  We work on ways to present research orally, strategies for Power Point presentations, techniques for speaking up and being understood better, American classroom/academic psychology, American body language, and accent correction.  The latter is especially hard since the class is diverse with students from many different countries. (The most exotic ESL student I have ever taught was...  a French Canadian!)

I don't speak all of my students' languages, but since I am trilingual myself I know exactly what they are going through in learning other languages.  Also, although I don't speak Arabic, my mother is a native speaker who was born and raised in Lebanon.  (I can say roughly 300 words and phrases in Arabic with only a light American accent, and I crack up my Arabic students by throwing things like leysh ana ya allah? (Why me, God?) and yalla yalla! (Hurry up!) into my conversations with them.

[DeterminedJuliet]

(The most exotic ESL student I have ever taught was...  a French Canadian!)

I live in Ottawa, right across the border from Quebec. My Grandfather is a french Canadian (before I got married, I had a french last name). Yes, the Quebecois language can definitely be... exotic. 

[OldGit]

Oh, là, là!  Juliette, ma chérie, que j'ai envie de ...

Fill in ending according to taste.

-----------

I was coming through the arch into my college at Oxford one night when I spied a mate of mine, a Québecois called Jacques.  He'd had a few, and was hopping around the quad on one leg, pretending to be Benn Gunn from Treasure Island.

"Aarr, sir, have 'ee got a bit o' cheese for a christian gennlemun?", quoth he.

So I thought, "what fun!"  and joined in.

After half an hour there were about 20 of us all hopping around the quad demanding cheese in pirate voices.

This is what you get with French Canadians.

[The Magic Pudding]

This thread seems more of a Christianity versus sexuality thread.  Presumably all sex lacking the intention of producing a child with a church approved wife is sin.  I think this is derived from the world view of ancient goat herders, jealous wife/daughter owners.  It's an ugly thing when those in authority tell people their best is the worst.  Spare us the judgement of twisted zealots, sex is a giving thing to me, don't know what it is to them.

This isn't meant as an attack on AD, more frustration that the guilt that has been dealt for millennia is still so strong.

[DeterminedJuliet]

Oh, là, là!  Juliette, ma chérie, que j'ai envie de ...

Fill in ending according to taste.

-----------

I was coming through the arch into my college at Oxford one night when I spied a mate of mine, a Québecois called Jacques.  He'd had a few, and was hopping around the quad on one leg, pretending to be Benn Gunn from Treasure Island.

"Aarr, sir, have 'ee got a bit o' cheese for a christian gennlemun?", quoth he.

So I thought, "what fun!"  and joined in.

After half an hour there were about 20 of us all hopping around the quad demanding cheese in pirate voices.

This is what you get with French Canadians.