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War on Religion

Started by Happy_Is_Good, May 20, 2012, 03:55:27 AM

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Stevil

Quote from: Amicale on May 21, 2012, 05:15:08 AM
Quote from: BonaireBound on May 21, 2012, 02:35:03 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 20, 2012, 04:27:13 AM
I don't respect anyone who's religious. I just can't do it... :\

It really makes me seriously question their intelligence.

Totaly agree

I respectfully disagree. I respect several people who are religious, just not specifically because they ARE religious. Their religion is only one aspect of their personality, and while I may disagree with them over it there's still generally plenty I can respect them deeply for.
If they don't respect SweetDeath and her lifestyle then how can she possibly be expected to respect them back. It is a two way street.
For the rest of us, we ought to stand by SweetDeath's side rather than just be happy the religious are picking on her rather than us.

Sweetdeath

Quote from: Amicale on May 21, 2012, 05:15:08 AM
Quote from: BonaireBound on May 21, 2012, 02:35:03 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 20, 2012, 04:27:13 AM
I don't respect anyone who's religious. I just can't do it... :\

It really makes me seriously question their intelligence.

Totaly agree

I respectfully disagree. I respect several people who are religious, just not specifically because they ARE religious. Their religion is only one aspect of their personality, and while I may disagree with them over it there's still generally plenty I can respect them deeply for.

Well, that's you. I dont have that same kind of   torlerance;  knowing most of their thinking is guided by a biggoted, sexist, rascist book. That deep down they cant fathom why people "choose" to be gay.
Why they dont get understand logic and reason, and why i dont need their pathetic crutch.
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

Sweetdeath

Quote from: Stevil on May 21, 2012, 05:28:51 AM
Quote from: Amicale on May 21, 2012, 05:15:08 AM
Quote from: BonaireBound on May 21, 2012, 02:35:03 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 20, 2012, 04:27:13 AM
I don't respect anyone who's religious. I just can't do it... :\

It really makes me seriously question their intelligence.

Totaly agree

I respectfully disagree. I respect several people who are religious, just not specifically because they ARE religious. Their religion is only one aspect of their personality, and while I may disagree with them over it there's still generally plenty I can respect them deeply for.
If they don't respect SweetDeath and her lifestyle then how can she possibly be expected to respect them back. It is a two way street.
For the rest of us, we ought to stand by SweetDeath's side rather than just be happy the religious are picking on her rather than us.


You're making me blush~   :-*
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

Buddy

Quote from: Stevil on May 21, 2012, 05:28:51 AM
Quote from: Amicale on May 21, 2012, 05:15:08 AM
Quote from: BonaireBound on May 21, 2012, 02:35:03 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 20, 2012, 04:27:13 AM
I don't respect anyone who's religious. I just can't do it... :\

It really makes me seriously question their intelligence.

Totaly agree

I respectfully disagree. I respect several people who are religious, just not specifically because they ARE religious. Their religion is only one aspect of their personality, and while I may disagree with them over it there's still generally plenty I can respect them deeply for.
If they don't respect SweetDeath and her lifestyle then how can she possibly be expected to respect them back. It is a two way street.
For the rest of us, we ought to stand by SweetDeath's side rather than just be happy the religious are picking on her rather than us.

I totally agree with you here. I hate the intolerance that the LGBT sees on a daily basis. As the vice president of our school's Gay-Straight Allience club, I catch a lot of crap from some religious people who can't see life past their Bible. Those are the people that I do not have any respect for. The people I do hold high value are the people who come up to me saying how they had this prejudice for the gay community, but after learning that they are people too, they don't see the negative anymore. My opinion is that there is always going to be intolerance and bigotry in the world. Educating people, rather than fighting it with more intolerance is the key to at least lessening it.

Then again, this is also a personality issue as well. I am a very laid back person. I also shy away from conflict as much as possible. This makes my opinions less aggressive than some people's, and that is okay.
Strange but not a stranger<br /><br />I love my car more than I love most people.

Sweetdeath

You can be laid back if ypu'd like.
Bu being laid back  isnt in my nature. It damn sure doesnt change the world. Or the  ignorance around me.

But that's me.
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

Amicale

Quote from: Stevil on May 21, 2012, 05:28:51 AM
Quote from: Amicale on May 21, 2012, 05:15:08 AM
Quote from: BonaireBound on May 21, 2012, 02:35:03 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 20, 2012, 04:27:13 AM
I don't respect anyone who's religious. I just can't do it... :\

It really makes me seriously question their intelligence.

Totaly agree

I respectfully disagree. I respect several people who are religious, just not specifically because they ARE religious. Their religion is only one aspect of their personality, and while I may disagree with them over it there's still generally plenty I can respect them deeply for.
If they don't respect SweetDeath and her lifestyle then how can she possibly be expected to respect them back. It is a two way street.
For the rest of us, we ought to stand by SweetDeath's side rather than just be happy the religious are picking on her rather than us.

Just to be clear: I'm not in any way happy the religious are picking on her. And of course I'm standing by her side, the same way I'm standing by the side of anyone who gets picked on just for being themselves. Picking on someone for their sexual orientation or any other characteristic about them is flat out wrong. I've encountered bigotry and idiocy too, and I don't respect those who demonstrate those traits. But I don't automatically assume that just because someone believes in God, they're a bigot or an idiot. Not all the religious do pick on people. Those who are kind, decent human beings like the rest of us, I have respect for. Those who aren't kind or decent, I don't. That's it.



"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb we are bound to others. By every crime and act of kindness we birth our future." - Cloud Atlas

"To live in the hearts of those we leave behind is to never die." -Carl Sagan

Amicale

Quote from: Budhorse4 on May 21, 2012, 05:47:25 AM
Quote from: Stevil on May 21, 2012, 05:28:51 AM
Quote from: Amicale on May 21, 2012, 05:15:08 AM
Quote from: BonaireBound on May 21, 2012, 02:35:03 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 20, 2012, 04:27:13 AM
I don't respect anyone who's religious. I just can't do it... :\

It really makes me seriously question their intelligence.

Totaly agree

I respectfully disagree. I respect several people who are religious, just not specifically because they ARE religious. Their religion is only one aspect of their personality, and while I may disagree with them over it there's still generally plenty I can respect them deeply for.
If they don't respect SweetDeath and her lifestyle then how can she possibly be expected to respect them back. It is a two way street.
For the rest of us, we ought to stand by SweetDeath's side rather than just be happy the religious are picking on her rather than us.

I totally agree with you here. I hate the intolerance that the LGBT sees on a daily basis. As the vice president of our school's Gay-Straight Allience club, I catch a lot of crap from some religious people who can't see life past their Bible. Those are the people that I do not have any respect for. The people I do hold high value are the people who come up to me saying how they had this prejudice for the gay community, but after learning that they are people too, they don't see the negative anymore. My opinion is that there is always going to be intolerance and bigotry in the world. Educating people, rather than fighting it with more intolerance is the key to at least lessening it.

Then again, this is also a personality issue as well. I am a very laid back person. I also shy away from conflict as much as possible. This makes my opinions less aggressive than some people's, and that is okay.

Great post, Buddy. Like you, I'm more of a laid back person, and I tend to prefer making a difference behind the scenes through education and through shattering stereotypes. And like you, I've worked on GSA-type stuff in school, and I saw the difference it made, when people realized they'd been mistaken, simply because they were open to new information and getting to know new people. In all fairness, I've also seen closed-minded jerks who refused to learn anything new or who openly gave us grief. At the end of the day, the ones that encouraged me were the ones that realized we (gay people) are people exactly like them, and once they got to know us, a lot of their misconceptions ended right there.

Maybe some people need a louder, more public role. I can understand that. It just isn't my style. And hey, maybe I'm an optimist. Maybe I meet people who are Christians or from other religions, and don't automatically assume that they're going to have an issue with me because I'm gay. I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise. I also agree that hate and bigotry will always exist, on both sides of the fence -- sizeable majorities of the religious and non-religious will probably always feel misunderstood and threatened by "the other side".

I don't think it's so bad that I don't want "a war", that I'd prefer education and conversation instead. It's just who I am, and I can't change that. I respect those here on this board who have different tactics. We're all different. Just because we're atheists doesn't mean there's a handbook we all follow. :)


"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb we are bound to others. By every crime and act of kindness we birth our future." - Cloud Atlas

"To live in the hearts of those we leave behind is to never die." -Carl Sagan

markmcdaniel

There is no war on religion. Rather, people who do not like living in a secular society have discovered they can use it as a rallying cry for there war on secularism and rational thought.
It appears to me (whether rightly or wrongly) that direct arguments against Christianity and theism produce hardly any effect on the public; and freedom of thought is best promoted by the gradual illumination of men's minds which follows from the advance of science - Charles Darwin

I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the object of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a god, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism. - Albert Einstein

Religion is a by product of fear. For much of human history, it may have been a necessary evil, but why was it more evil than necessary? Isn't killing people in the name of God a pretty good definition of insanity. - Arther C. Clarke

Faith means not wanting to know what is true. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Tank

Quote from: markmcdaniel on May 21, 2012, 09:02:36 AM
There is no war on religion. Rather, people who do not like living in a secular society have discovered they can use it as a rallying cry for there war on secularism and rational thought.
Exactly. Some theists do feel picked on because in the past their views have had an unreasonable influence on society and now that unreasonable element is being rolled back and they simply don't like it.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

OldGit

Seems to me there's a lot of truth in that.  Christians in the UK have claimed that city councils officially changing from 'christmas' to 'winterval' is an attack on religion, whereas it's really much more a misguided attempt to avoid offending other faiths.

Ali

Quote from: Tank on May 21, 2012, 09:05:31 AM
Quote from: markmcdaniel on May 21, 2012, 09:02:36 AM
There is no war on religion. Rather, people who do not like living in a secular society have discovered they can use it as a rallying cry for there war on secularism and rational thought.
Exactly. Some theists do feel picked on because in the past their views have had an unreasonable influence on society and now that unreasonable element is being rolled back and they simply don't like it.

This!  Whenever I hear some point of "proof" about the "war on religion" or "persecution of Christians" it's always something like "They won't even let our kids pray in school anymore!!!!"  But that's obviously not true.  Anybody can pray quietly to themselves at any time.  Heck, they can even pray out loud if it's not disrupting class (for example, in the lunchroom before they eat.).  Schools simply can't show favor for one religious belief over another by having an official, mandated school led prayer.  So basically, if Christians can't force everyone else to pray too, there is a war on religion.  ::)  Ridiculous.

Buddy

Quote from: Ali on May 21, 2012, 04:24:45 PM

This!  Whenever I hear some point of "proof" about the "war on religion" or "persecution of Christians" it's always something like "They won't even let our kids pray in school anymore!!!!"  But that's obviously not true.  Anybody can pray quietly to themselves at any time.  Heck, they can even pray out loud if it's not disrupting class (for example, in the lunchroom before they eat.).  Schools simply can't show favor for one religious belief over another by having an official, mandated school led prayer.  So basically, if Christians can't force everyone else to pray too, there is a war on religion.  ::)  Ridiculous.

Don't include Indiana in those schools. They are trying to push for a school wide prayer.  ::)
Strange but not a stranger<br /><br />I love my car more than I love most people.

Sandra Craft

Quote from: Amicale on May 21, 2012, 07:14:47 AM
Just to be clear: I'm not in any way happy the religious are picking on her. And of course I'm standing by her side, the same way I'm standing by the side of anyone who gets picked on just for being themselves. Picking on someone for their sexual orientation or any other characteristic about them is flat out wrong. I've encountered bigotry and idiocy too, and I don't respect those who demonstrate those traits. But I don't automatically assume that just because someone believes in God, they're a bigot or an idiot.  Not all the religious do pick on people. Those who are kind, decent human beings like the rest of us, I have respect for. Those who aren't kind or decent, I don't. That's it.

That's a good point -- I don't automatically assume bigotry or idiocy on the part of the religious either because I've known way too many religious who are not bigoted (and some who are gay themselves for that matter) and who are very intelligent.  One of my most religious friends is a rocket scientist -- and I mean literally, a rocket scientist.  Another is a civil engineer.  I would find it very hard to believe that either of them doesn't understand logic and reason.

From what I've seen, religious belief has nothing to do with how smart someone is, it's more a matter of emotional needs.  And yes, it's a bit of a crutch but I have emotional crutches in my life too, the fact that I don't have this particular one doesn't make me look down on those who do feel a need for it.

I think it does come down to respecting individuals who are kind and decent in their behavior toward others, and those people I've found coming from all walks of life and from all philosophical/religious backgrounds.  And I find it useful to bear in mind that some of the non-religious can be real assholes too and over-step the bounds.  Doesn't mean that makes it OK for the religious to do it, just that they are far from having a monopoly on it.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Firebird

Quote from: Amicale on May 21, 2012, 07:14:47 AM
Just to be clear: I'm not in any way happy the religious are picking on her. And of course I'm standing by her side, the same way I'm standing by the side of anyone who gets picked on just for being themselves. Picking on someone for their sexual orientation or any other characteristic about them is flat out wrong. I've encountered bigotry and idiocy too, and I don't respect those who demonstrate those traits. But I don't automatically assume that just because someone believes in God, they're a bigot or an idiot. Not all the religious do pick on people. Those who are kind, decent human beings like the rest of us, I have respect for. Those who aren't kind or decent, I don't. That's it.

This is exactly how I feel. I think it's very dangerous to generalize or stereotype all religious people that way. Yes, there's a segment that's loud, obnoxious, intolerant, and homophobic, and I welcome a fight with them anytime. But I know plenty of intelligent people who do believe in some form of god. I think they're wrong, of course, but I would never call them an "idiot" for it, nor are they bigoted.
Also, let's not forget there are gay catholics out there, such as Andrew Sullivan or former MA Senator Jarrett Barrios.
"Great, replace one book about an abusive, needy asshole with another." - Will (moderator) on replacing hotel Bibles with "Fifty Shades of Grey"

Ali

Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on May 21, 2012, 04:49:13 PM
Quote from: Amicale on May 21, 2012, 07:14:47 AM
Just to be clear: I'm not in any way happy the religious are picking on her. And of course I'm standing by her side, the same way I'm standing by the side of anyone who gets picked on just for being themselves. Picking on someone for their sexual orientation or any other characteristic about them is flat out wrong. I've encountered bigotry and idiocy too, and I don't respect those who demonstrate those traits. But I don't automatically assume that just because someone believes in God, they're a bigot or an idiot.  Not all the religious do pick on people. Those who are kind, decent human beings like the rest of us, I have respect for. Those who aren't kind or decent, I don't. That's it.

That's a good point -- I don't automatically assume bigotry or idiocy on the part of the religious either because I've known way too many religious who are not bigoted (and some who are gay themselves for that matter) and who are very intelligent.  One of my most religious friends is a rocket scientist -- and I mean literally, a rocket scientist.  Another is a civil engineer.  I would find it very hard to believe that either of them doesn't understand logic and reason.

From what I've seen, religious belief has nothing to do with how smart someone is, it's more a matter of emotional needs.  And yes, it's a bit of a crutch but I have emotional crutches in my life too, the fact that I don't have this particular one doesn't make me look down on those who do feel a need for it.

I think it does come down to respecting individuals who are kind and decent in their behavior toward others, and those people I've found coming from all walks of life and from all philosophical/religious backgrounds.  And I find it useful to bear in mind that some of the non-religious can be real assholes too and over-step the bounds.  Doesn't mean that makes it OK for the religious to do it, just that they are far from having a monopoly on it.

Very well said.  Completely agree.