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Is it fair to paint Mitt Romney as "a bully"

Started by Ali, May 10, 2012, 11:17:30 PM

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Ali

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/post/mitt-romneys-high-school-hijinks-do-they-matter/2012/05/10/gIQANt8nFU_blog.html
QuoteFormer Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney apologized this morning for "hijinks" during his high school years at a prep school in Michigan, an admission that came just hours after the Washington Post reported of his involvement in an episode in which a student was held down and his hair was cut by the presidential candidate

"I participated in a lot of hijinks and pranks during high school and some might have gone too far and for that, I apologize," Romney told radio host Brian Kilmeade this morning. As far the specific allegation regarding cutting the boy's hair, Romney said: "I don't remember that incident."


Republican presidential candidate former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney, gestures as he speaks to supporters at Oklahoma state Republican Party Headquarters in Oklahoma City, Wednesday, May 9, 2012.(AP Photo/Sue Ogrocki)Romney's acknowledgment of his behavior in high school so soon after his campaign issued something close to a denial in the Post story, which included a series of on-the-record retellings from others who participated, is a recognition on behalf of the campaign that prolonging this story would be detrimental to him and his chances this fall.

It also raises a larger question, however. Is how a person running for president acted more than four decades ago relevant to who they are today — and what they might be like as president?

In this particular case, how you come down on that issue is largely dependent on which partisan hat you wear. (Is there actually such a thing as a "partisan hat"? If so, where do you buy them? And does Nigel Tufnel sell them?)

Democrats quickly moved to cast the incident as a window into Romney's soul. Tweeted Democratic National Committee Chairman Brad Woodhouse:

.@MittRomney was intolerant in 1965, assaulting a presumed homosexual with scissors, and he's intolerant today opposing civil unions and SSM

— Brad Woodhouse (@woodhouseb) May 10, 2012

Republicans sought to dismiss the story as entirely irrelevant. Jim Geraghty of the National Review offered a common take via Twitter:

In light of the Post's story, I just don't think I can bring myself to vote for the 17-year-old Mitt Romney for president.

— jimgeraghty (@jimgeraghty) May 10, 2012

Curt Anderson, a Republican consultant, called the focvus on Romney's high school antics "beyond absurd", adding: "I hear that Teddy Roosevelt gave someone a wedgie in middle school."

Romney, too, tried to play the it-was-a-long-time-ago card in his radio interview. "As to the teasing or the taunts that go on in high school, that's a long time ago," said Romney. "For me, that's about 48 years ago."

The reality of the current way in which we pick presidents is that virtually everything you have done in your life is fair game. (Is that the right way to do things? That's a different blog post.)

Go back through the last several presidential elections — or even the last several months of this race — and you see evidence of that fact.

Republicans sought to make an issue of the fact that President Obama wrote in his memoir that he had eaten dog as a child in Indonesia. His past drug use is also been fodder for the political gossip mill. John McCain regularly used his time at the Naval Academy to illustrate his maverick nature. Days before the 2004 election, the fact that George W. Bush had been arrested in 1976 for drunk driving in Maine came out. (Bush acknowledged the arrest shortly after the news broke.)

Running for president in this age of information overload, Twitter and the 24-hour cable news cycle has been described as a full body scan that reveals your soul. We agree with that assessment.

Remember too that people vote for president in a way that they vote for nothing else; the vote for president is heavily personality dependent — it's far more about who you are than what policy positions you have staked out. Given that, what you have done throughout your life does matter.

Of course, it is possible that experiences in your younger life change you in some meaningful and important way. Romney said as much this morning; "I'm a very different person than I was in high school, of course, but I'm glad that I learned as much as I did during those high school years," Romney said this morning. "I'm quite a different guy. I'm married, have five sons, five daughters-in-law, and now 18 grandchildren." (Personal sidebar: The Fix was a very different person in high school — less confident, meaner, more petty — than we are today. Time can change things.)

We won't know whether or not how Romney acted in high school — and it now seems that he went beyond simple pranks to what looks a lot like bullying — matters to voters until November. (And we may not even know then.)

But, the quickness of Romney's apology is a signal that his campaign recognizes the potential political peril in an extended litigation of what he did or didn't do in high school.

What do you think?  "Window into his bullying little soul", or "Boys will be boys; that was 40 years ago for chrissakes."

ThinkAnarchy

There are so many relevant things to attack the man on. But I don't think bullying as a child means much in adulthood. Most people grow out of it when they age and realize how big an asshole they were in their youth. That's not to say he isn't a douche, I'm just not exactly sure why this is news.
"He that displays too often his wife and his wallet is in danger of having both of them borrowed." -Ben Franklin

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -credited to Franklin, but not sure.

Tank

Isolated incidents in childhood can have deep and long lasting effects on a person. I can attest to that. This is a very difficult question to answer and one that goes to the core of what one can really ever know about any other person. We are all a unique combination of genes and memes mixed and blended by experiences. What we are at 17 is going to be different from what we are at 30.

Personally I look for consistency of recent behaviour to assess whether a person is reliable and to deduce what their current character is like. What is damaging to Romney is the fact that he initially denied the incident. That tells me he either has a poor memory or is a liar. The former is a poor characteristic in a president the later is critical. But to be a bad liar and not knowing when/how to lie are poor qualities in a leader. A President who couldn't lie effectively would be a complete liability. But effectively means as little as possible and only when it really matters. A bluff is a lie and brinkmanship a critical skill for the person in charge of the largest nuclear arsenal on Earth.

I perceive Obarma as a person that if he had no need to lie he never would. I perceive Romney, because he claims to be a theist, as a self deluding individual. He either lies to himself to maintain his delusion or he is truly delusional.

So I don't think there is a sound-bite answer to a question that plumbs the depths of human nature.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Crow

If its true I think the person who was bullied should use this opportunity to get as much revenge as they can.
Retired member.

Amicale

#4
My answer is similar to part of Tank's - I believe that we are typically different at different stages in our lives, and that watching for consistent recent behaviour is the best predictor of future behaviour. How you are now and how you've been for some time is most likely how you will be, in at least the immediate future. I wouldn't necessarily judge someone by how they were in grade school, unless they were still showing similar traits now.

I can't think of anyone I know who hasn't screwed something up in their youth or young adulthood. It's what young people do -- some of us do worse things than others, but we all mess up. If we were all judged by events that happened several years ago in order to get a decent job, I suspect nearly all of us would be unemployed. I do understand that the position of President holds considerably more weight than any other job, but at the same time, I'd be a lot more concerned what a presidential candidate's been like (in terms of their positions and policies) for the last, say, 5 to 10 years -- recent history.

I don't know enough about Romney to comment on him personally, though.... but I'd say we all have 'skeletons in the closet'. In his teenaged years, Barack Obama used alcohol, marijuana and other hard drugs, apparently. I'm sure all presidents and world leaders made mistakes in their youth.


"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb we are bound to others. By every crime and act of kindness we birth our future." - Cloud Atlas

"To live in the hearts of those we leave behind is to never die." -Carl Sagan

jumbojak

The real issue here isn't his behavior fifty years ago and the mistakes he made at the time. What is important is whether he acknowleges that the incident took place, and is able to give a compelling account of how he has grown as a person since then. I have done awful, simply awful things to people in the past. Now I know not only that they were wrong, but why they were wrong and I have the integrity to speak out against similar actions on the behalf of those individuals who are targeted.

I do not expect a president to be a saint, however I do expect them to own up to their past, for better or worse. The fact that the incident occoured several decades is not as important as the intervening time and the personal growth from bully to decent human being.

"Amazing what chimney sweeping can teach us, no? Keep your fire hot and
your flue clean."  - Ecurb Noselrub

"I'd be incensed by your impudence were I not so impressed by your memory." - Siz

Tank

Quote from: jumbojak on May 12, 2012, 10:30:39 PM
The real issue here isn't his behavior fifty years ago and the mistakes he made at the time. What is important is whether he acknowleges that the incident took place, and is able to give a compelling account of how he has grown as a person since then. I have done awful, simply awful things to people in the past. Now I know not only that they were wrong, but why they were wrong and I have the integrity to speak out against similar actions on the behalf of those individuals who are targeted.

I do not expect a president to be a saint, however I do expect them to own up to their past, for better or worse. The fact that the incident occoured several decades is not as important as the intervening time and the personal growth from bully to decent human being.
Well said.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

fester30

Christmas 2010 I was a Christian.  It wasn't much over a year ago I started coming in here.  I don't think it's any more fair to hold the bully thing over on Romney than to hold many of my former views and beliefs on me.  Our last three presidents have used drugs (two snorted coke, 1 didn't inhale).  It's in the past.

Asmodean

Quote from: ThinkAnarchy on May 11, 2012, 12:57:39 AM
There are so many relevant things to attack the man on. But I don't think bullying as a child means much in adulthood. Most people grow out of it when they age and realize how big an asshole they were in their youth. That's not to say he isn't a douche, I'm just not exactly sure why this is news.
I sort of disagree. If someone is the kind of person to hide the tininess of their penis behind the enormity of their muscles and/or the badness of their attitude, how would they be smart enough to grow out of it?
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Sandra Craft

Quote from: Ali on May 10, 2012, 11:17:30 PM
What do you think?  "Window into his bullying little soul", or "Boys will be boys; that was 40 years ago for chrissakes."

Most kids do stupid and often cruel things, I've got emotional scars myself left over from childhood and I know I inflicted a few as well.  The thing that concerns me is whether the adult is doing stupid and/or cruel things, which in my mind is where Romney fails the test.  This business about what he did in high school and if he's sufficiently (or at least publicly) abashed about it now is just a distraction from real issues.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

ThinkAnarchy

Quote from: Asmodean on May 12, 2012, 10:36:07 PM
Quote from: ThinkAnarchy on May 11, 2012, 12:57:39 AM
There are so many relevant things to attack the man on. But I don't think bullying as a child means much in adulthood. Most people grow out of it when they age and realize how big an asshole they were in their youth. That's not to say he isn't a douche, I'm just not exactly sure why this is news.
I sort of disagree. If someone is the kind of person to hide the tininess of their penis behind the enormity of their muscles and/or the badness of their attitude, how would they be smart enough to grow out of it?

I simply know quite a few people who were bullies in high school but after maturing they realized the error of their ways, and in some cases apologized. I was both bullied and a bully in primary and secondary school. For me it was a defense mechanism, not that I think it is a valid defense. But if there was another target, the target wouldn't be me. Although I was never physically violent, I was still an ass. Granted some of the bullies I grew up with now simply bully people in their offices. Some never change, but many do, at least from personal experience.
"He that displays too often his wife and his wallet is in danger of having both of them borrowed." -Ben Franklin

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -credited to Franklin, but not sure.

Firebird

Charles Blow of the NY Times had an interesting opinion piece about this which helps capture how I feel.

The problem is not so much that he did this as a kid; yes, this happened in his youth, and perhaps he can be forgiven somewhat for that. But does anyone seriously believe that he doesn't remember the incident, like he claimed? He basically laughed it off like it was no big deal, which it certainly was not. If he had offered some sort of sincere apology and used this as an opportunity to talk about the horrible effects such bullying have on teenagers, then I would have had some more respect for the man. Instead, he tried to pretend he didn't remember, when he clearly did, and offered up some sort of half-assed apology. I call foul.
"Great, replace one book about an abusive, needy asshole with another." - Will (moderator) on replacing hotel Bibles with "Fifty Shades of Grey"

Amicale

Quote from: Firebird on May 14, 2012, 05:24:07 AM
Charles Blow of the NY Times had an interesting opinion piece about this which helps capture how I feel.

The problem is not so much that he did this as a kid; yes, this happened in his youth, and perhaps he can be forgiven somewhat for that. But does anyone seriously believe that he doesn't remember the incident, like he claimed? He basically laughed it off like it was no big deal, which it certainly was not. If he had offered some sort of sincere apology and used this as an opportunity to talk about the horrible effects such bullying have on teenagers, then I would have had some more respect for the man. Instead, he tried to pretend he didn't remember, when he clearly did, and offered up some sort of half-assed apology. I call foul.

:) All politicians find memory lapses convenient. It helps them never have to actually live up to and make good on most of their campaign promises. ;)


"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb we are bound to others. By every crime and act of kindness we birth our future." - Cloud Atlas

"To live in the hearts of those we leave behind is to never die." -Carl Sagan

technolud

I don't like bullies.  Yes we all made mistakes as kids, but to me there is a difference between smoking pot and beating up on people.  Many (all?) of my friends grew up without bullying people.

That said, it is possible to change, grow and learn.  Sounds like ThinkAnarchy did so.  Not so much Mitt.  I take this incident as a warning sign, even if it is 50 years old.

Ali

Quote from: technolud on May 14, 2012, 11:03:39 AM
I don't like bullies.  Yes we all made mistakes as kids, but to me there is a difference between smoking pot and beating up on people.  Many (all?) of my friends grew up without bullying people.

That said, it is possible to change, grow and learn.  Sounds like ThinkAnarchy did so.  Not so much Mitt.  I take this incident as a warning sign, even if it is 50 years old.

This is kind of how I feel about it.  Maybe it's because I especially dislike bullies.  Maybe it's because I especially dislike the GOP.   ;D  But I can't help but wonder, added in with the casual denial, added in with the story about the dog on the roof of the car, if maybe this isn't so much of a worrying action as a worrying personality trait.