Are we ultimately responsible for our actions?

[En_Route]

One might ask if so, responsible to whom? But it seems to me the answer in any event can only be no. We are born with genes we did not select into an environment, including the pre-natal environment, over which we could exercise no control. Even if we could have controlled it the extent we could do so would have been determined by the interplay of our genes with that environment. So if we believe our actions can be traced back to a cause or causes the chain of causation leads back inexorably to factors and events which were not of our making.If Alternatively you believe that our actions are uncaused and unrelated to the all the life-events which preceded it, mimicking quantum level indeterminacy, then you cannot be responsible for behaviour which is random and unrelated to the sum of your previous being. The notion of free will is therefore an invention which is used to justify blame and punishment and retribution generally. It also allows the God who was the ultimate cause of your being in Christian mythology to justify consigning you to eternal hellfire if  he deems it appropriate. This repudiation of free will does not vindicate fatalism or suggest wrongdoers should not be punished. We are capable of making choices and most of us are capable of appreciating that fatalism is not a beneficial philosophy. SImilarly most of us internalise some form of social morality and we may be deterred by the fact that breaking the law may incur disagreeable consequences, so we modify our behaviour accordingly. No stable society could abandon the moral fiction that we are to blame for our transgressions and deserve to be punished for them. But in the end free will is another unobservable chimeras, a ghost in the machine like the soul, and our faith in its existence is as blind and non-empirical as the theist's in God


E

[Ali]

You should have been a defense lawyer instead.   

But to answer your question, yes, I feel that ultimately we are responsible for our actions.  Responsible to who?  To ourselves, of course.  If I make no end of bad decisions, I am letting myself down. 

[The Magic Pudding]

One might ask if so, responsible to whom? But it seems to me the answer in any event can only be no. We are born with genes we did not select into an environment, including the pre-natal environment, over which we could exercise no control.

We are the result of all that, big bang, abiogenesis, evolution, bad parents, it is what we are.  I'm not a turtle or a fish, perhaps I may be a flawed human whose car squashes a duck because I'm lighting a cigarette.  It seems odd saying the car was responsible.  Saying rock falls were responsible for twelve deaths last year sounds sort of OK.  I think a definition of responsible is required, is it supposed to imply a duty of care, can only beings capable of conscious choice be responsible?

Responsible
1.  answerable or accountable, as for something within one's power, control, or management (often followed by to or for): He is responsible to the president for his decisions.
2.  involving accountability or responsibility: a responsible position.
3.  chargeable with being the author, cause, or occasion of something (usually followed by for): Termites were responsible for the damage.
4.  having a capacity for moral decisions and therefore accountable; capable of rational thought or action: The defendant is not responsible for his actions.
5.  able to discharge obligations or pay debts.


I usually think of pool tables when thinking of determinism, I'm going to try dice for a change.  Roll 12 and you're a saint (secular of course) 2 and you're off to jail.  I'm of the mind you are your number, I'm sorry for you and your victims the universe created you as a 2, but alas it's jail for you.  If you'd chosen differently you would be a three, but you're not.  Maybe you were a seven before someone hit you on the head, vandalised your brain function and stole your wallet, that is sad perhaps we can get you into a medical wing.

[En_Route]

You should have been a defense lawyer instead.   

But to answer your question, yes, I feel that ultimately we are responsible for our actions.  Responsible to who?  To ourselves, of course.  If I make no end of bad decisions, I am letting myself down. 

So what didn't you do that could have led to better decisions and for which you feel culpable?
And don't forget bad outcomes don't necessarily imply bad decisions (that's another topic but ex post facto judgements suffer from inherent bias). And self-laceration is psychologically detrimental (and rather Christian too if you want a clinching refutation). Take it from me, it was not your fault, whatever it was you did.

[Ali]

You should have been a defense lawyer instead.   

But to answer your question, yes, I feel that ultimately we are responsible for our actions.  Responsible to who?  To ourselves, of course.  If I make no end of bad decisions, I am letting myself down. 

So what didn't you do that could have led to better decisions and for which you feel culpable?
And don't forget bad outcomes don't necessarily imply bad decisions (that's another topic but ex post facto judgements suffer from inherent bias). And self-laceration is psychologically detrimental (and rather Christian too if you want a clinching refutation). Take it from me, it was not your fault, whatever it was you did.

I wouldn't call acknowledging the part that you played in your own misfortune "self laceration."  How else would a person learn to make a better decision next time?

The only decisions that I've made that I truly regret were the ones that resulted in hurting other people.  I have a few of those on my conscience, I'm afraid.  But the good news is that carrying that around is a good reminder to be more honest, more compassionate, more kind.  If I didn't accept the blame for these decisions, if I thought that I'm incapable of being better than that, wouldn't that be a self fulfilling prophecy? 

[Sweetdeath]

In spite of any genes we may have gotten from our parents, we grow up to be our own person. Blaming anyone but ourselves for our own mistakes is pathetic.

[En_Route]

You should have been a defense lawyer instead.   

But to answer your question, yes, I feel that ultimately we are responsible for our actions.  Responsible to who?  To ourselves, of course.  If I make no end of bad decisions, I am letting myself down. 

So what didn't you do that could have led to better decisions and for which you feel culpable?
And don't forget bad outcomes don't necessarily imply bad decisions (that's another topic but ex post facto judgements suffer from inherent bias). And self-laceration is psychologically detrimental (and rather Christian too if you want a clinching refutation). Take it from me, it was not your fault, whatever it was you did.

I wouldn't call acknowledging the part that you played in your own misfortune "self laceration."  How else would a person learn to make a better decision next time?

The only decisions that I've made that I truly regret were the ones that resulted in hurting other people.  I have a few of those on my conscience, I'm afraid.  But the good news is that carrying that around is a good reminder to be more honest, more compassionate, more kind.  If I didn't accept the blame for these decisions, if I thought that I'm incapable of being better than that, wouldn't that be a self fulfilling prophecy? 

You can learn from your mistakes without feeling bad about them.

[En_Route]

In spite of any genes we may have gotten from our parents, we grow up to be our own person. Blaming anyone but ourselves for our own mistakes is pathetic.

With respection, this is just an assertion and doesn't really address the arguments. . Ironically this idea of blame is rooted in the Western Christian tradition.

[Ali]

You should have been a defense lawyer instead.   

But to answer your question, yes, I feel that ultimately we are responsible for our actions.  Responsible to who?  To ourselves, of course.  If I make no end of bad decisions, I am letting myself down. 

So what didn't you do that could have led to better decisions and for which you feel culpable?
And don't forget bad outcomes don't necessarily imply bad decisions (that's another topic but ex post facto judgements suffer from inherent bias). And self-laceration is psychologically detrimental (and rather Christian too if you want a clinching refutation). Take it from me, it was not your fault, whatever it was you did.

I wouldn't call acknowledging the part that you played in your own misfortune "self laceration."  How else would a person learn to make a better decision next time?

The only decisions that I've made that I truly regret were the ones that resulted in hurting other people.  I have a few of those on my conscience, I'm afraid.  But the good news is that carrying that around is a good reminder to be more honest, more compassionate, more kind.  If I didn't accept the blame for these decisions, if I thought that I'm incapable of being better than that, wouldn't that be a self fulfilling prophecy? 

You can learn from your mistakes without feeling bad about them.

I don't know.  I feel bad about my mistakes because they made someone else feel bad.  If I was indifferent their hurt, would I really care to try to be better next time?

[En_Route]

Empathy is one of the most civilising of human emotions. The point is that your resolve to avoid repeating behaviours that cause pain to others need not depend on feeling bad about yourself. Such feelings are (in my view) philosophically untenable and psychologically damaging.

[Ali]

I've thought about it, and I reject the notion that blame is rooted in Christian tradition.  People who grow up in non-Christian parts of the world don't feel regret? 

I think it's possible to forgive yourself for your mistakes, to accept that you did what you did, and next time you'll do better.  But that's a different thing from just simply not ever feeling regret or blame in the first place.  The latter seems a bit...sociopathic, to be honest.

[The Magic Pudding]

I was thinking of posting in the what are you listening to thread but...

You're going to reap just what you sow,
You're going to reap just what you sow,
You're going to reap just what you sow,
You're going to reap just what you sow...

Song lyrics weren't always so easy to grab.
I thought I heard or I imagined I heard a just watch your soul in there.
Not an immortal soul.
Soul sounds so much better than self.
I kinda thought taking more than you give would/should cause one an imbalance.
Well it seems many get by quite well in total ignorance of this principle.
But as Bob says "We're not those kind of men."  He should have said people.

[En_Route]

I've thought about it, and I reject the notion that blame is rooted in Christian tradition.  People who grow up in non-Christian parts of the world don't feel regret? 

I think it's possible to forgive yourself for your mistakes, to accept that you did what you did, and next time you'll do better.  But that's a different thing from just simply not ever feeling regret or blame in the first place.  The latter seems a bit...sociopathic, to be honest.

Christianity has certainly played the blame game par excellence with its notions of sin and penance, and there are certainly Eastern philosophies which seem to me to pretty well free of these bogeymen. I think to blame yourself and then forgive yourself is far more healthy than simply festering in self-recrimination but you can save time and get to the desired end-result by cutting out blame in the first instance.

[Ali]

Christianity has certainly played the blame game par excellence with its notions of sin and penance, and there are certainly Eastern philosophies which seem to me to pretty well free of these bogeymen. I think to blame yourself and then forgive yourself is far more healthy than simply festering in self-recrimination but you can save time and get to the desired end-result by cutting out blame in the first instance.

I actually think I would feel far less happy and hopeful if I believed that I had no control over my actions/decisions.  If I can control them, I am responsible for them.  If I can't, I suppose I am blame free, but frankly that idea is more frightening than comforting.  If I can control my decisions, I can have faith in my ability to learn, change, get better, do better. 

[Stevil]

In spite of any genes we may have gotten from our parents, we grow up to be our own person. Blaming anyone but ourselves for our own mistakes is pathetic.

It is much more complex than that.
We learn a lot of our life habits in our informative early years.
I have many habits that are similar to my parents that I am consciously trying very hard to break. At my age it is very difficult. These habits are subconscious, to change the subconscious is a very lengthy and difficult process.
I don't blame my parents, but I do recognise the situation and the possible cause, I do try to put myself in the control seat. But i also do forgive myself when I slip up. If I can't forgive myself then I would be a mess.