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Good and Bad people?

Started by Tank, February 03, 2012, 12:58:39 PM

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Ali

Honestly Stevil, I have no idea how to debate with someone who doesn't believe in right or wrong.  It's like we're speaking different languages.  LOL  Agree to disagree.

Asmodean

I regard good and evil kind of rights and wrongs as deeply subjective human constructs. For most, they do exist on personal to intersocietal levels, but are not universal or otherwise absolute.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Stevil

Quote from: Ali on February 04, 2012, 08:32:04 PM
Honestly Stevil, I have no idea how to debate with someone who doesn't believe in right or wrong.  It's like we're speaking different languages.  LOL  Agree to disagree.
If you replace good with "beneficial", bad with "detrimental" then you will go along way to understand my train of thought.
You will understand that beneficial needs to be qualified, in what respect is something beneficial? In what respect is something detrimental.

But then you would understand that it becomes difficult to label a person as a whole as being beneficial or detrimental.
Are we saying that our society benefits from a person or is hampered by a person?

When you remove the simple "good" or "bad" you must replace with much better reasoned judgment, you must provide context, you must show from what point of view, you must articulate how your reasoning proves the benefits or detriment.

It is about being specific.

Sandra Craft

#18
Quote from: Tank on February 03, 2012, 12:58:39 PM
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg

I'm not sure I agree with this. Is it religion that makes good people do bad things or is it simply peer pressure?

I think religion is a form of peer pressure on its own and in any case is a very powerful motivator for all kinds of behavior, but no, not the only source of good people doing bad things.  It may have been the main source historically, but people can make mistakes for a lot of reasons.

Quote from: The AsmoOne thing I do know: It does NOT take religion for bad people to do good things.

That usually takes love.  (has seen way too many mid-day movies)

Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Asmodean

Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on February 04, 2012, 09:23:38 PM
That usually takes love.  (has seen way too many mid-day movies)
Yes. Also, loyalty, compassion etc.

You can't count on the evil asshole to always take the nasty-ass path. Most "sane" evil assholes would probably only use it at need, although they would not hesitate to do so and the threshold of need would be lower than for an average good person.

Hey, you can even be evil and feel bad about it... Or so I'm told. I'm a done is done and no regrets kind of person, really.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Stevil

Quote from: Asmodean on February 04, 2012, 09:53:45 PM
You can't count on the evil asshole to always take the nasty-ass path.
I doubt that a person classifies themselves as being evil and then lives their life by that methodology, then feels guilt or remorse when they did something that turned out to be Good.

Asmodean

Quote from: Stevil on February 04, 2012, 10:16:44 PM
I doubt that a person classifies themselves as being evil and then lives their life by that methodology, then feels guilt or remorse when they did something that turned out to be Good.
An average evil person would probably be regarded as evil by others while having a diffeent opinion of self.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Stevil

Quote from: Asmodean on February 04, 2012, 10:33:14 PM
An average evil person would probably be regarded as evil by others while having a diffeent opinion of self.
What are people's perception of an evil person?

Is an evil person expected to be evil across the board and hence take the path of most evilness.
Or do they have a core focus of evil e.g. pedophillia but can be good in areas that aren't their core focus.

The Magic Pudding

Quote from: Stevil on February 04, 2012, 07:18:50 PM
At what stage to you decide to judge the person?
Is it when their bad actions are more frequent than their good actions?

Not frequency, if in total their bad actions outweigh the good ones as weighed on my own personal scales.

Quote from: Stevil on February 04, 2012, 07:18:50 PM
Is it when their bad actions are really, really bad (e.g rapist, pedophile, murderous dictator, murderous activist/terrorist)

Yes that would make them bad.
Perhaps the guy who intentionally ran over ducks reforms, sell his house converts an industrial wasteland into a wetland for ducks.  I'm not sure how often this sort of thing happens though.

Quote from: Stevil on February 04, 2012, 07:18:50 PM
Is it if they are generally perceived to be selfish?

They'd have to carry that pretty far before I classed them as a bad person, they'd almost certainly be a bad partner.

Quote from: Stevil on February 04, 2012, 07:18:50 PM
Is it if they are generally perceived to not adhere to the golden rule?

Possibly not a bad person, probably a bad citizen. Their failure to adhere may be petty.

Asmodean

Quote from: Stevil on February 04, 2012, 11:16:04 PM
Is an evil person expected to be evil across the board and hence take the path of most evilness.
I think people expect it, yes...

Quote
Or do they have a core focus of evil e.g. pedophillia but can be good in areas that aren't their core focus.
Well, in my limited expeience with humans, they tend to paint the entire person toxic green if just one of the defining characteristics is, in their eyes, bad.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Guardian85

Quote from: Asmodean on February 05, 2012, 07:31:12 AM
Quote from: Stevil on February 04, 2012, 11:16:04 PM

Or do they have a core focus of evil e.g. pedophillia but can be good in areas that aren't their core focus.
Well, in my limited expeience with humans, they tend to paint the entire person toxic green if just one of the defining characteristics is, in their eyes, bad.

Might this be a good time to point out that, from the point of view of quite a few people (theists), most people on this forum could be clasified as bad people?


"If scientist means 'not the dumbest motherfucker in the room,' I guess I'm a scientist, then."
-Unknown Smartass-

Sweetdeath

From personal observations, I think most people do bad things if money is involved. Such as smuggling of illegal goods, murder, etc.
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

Stevil

Quote from: Guardian85 on February 05, 2012, 09:50:03 AM
Might this be a good time to point out that, from the point of view of quite a few people (theists), most people on this forum could be clasified as bad people?
Atheists are evil to the core, that is why the perfect and loving god is justified in sending us to eternal torture for our disbelief.

Reprobate

Quote from: Tank on February 03, 2012, 12:58:39 PM
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg

I'm not sure I agree with this. Is it religion that makes good people do bad things or is it simply peer pressure?

If you apply it to groups it's more accurate, but if you look at the atrocities committed by people serving Stalin and Mao, it's pretty much discredited.

DeterminedJuliet

I think I agree with Sweetdeath. Money probably causes more people to do horrible things than even religion does.
When you mix the pursuit of money in the name of religion, that's when you get some supreme assholery.
"We've thought of life by analogy with a journey, with pilgrimage which had a serious purpose at the end, and the THING was to get to that end; success, or whatever it is, or maybe heaven after you're dead. But, we missed the point the whole way along; It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing, or dance, while the music was being played.