Church/State separation violated - why I really joined

[Firebird]

Now that I can post about more controversial topics, I thought I should tell you all why I finally decided to reach out to other atheists after all these years.
My wife was born overseas and recently applied for her US citizenship. While doing her application, we found out that the required citizenship oath has the line "So help me God" at the end. This was a disappointing surprise to us, but further research indicated that she could omit saying that line as long as she explained her objections in her application. There is precedence for this, so we didn't think it would be a big deal.
Fast forward to her citizenship interview and test, which happened last month. The interviewer sees her application with her attached objection and explanation. He's completely taken aback by this, saying that in ten years he had never seen anyone object to this before (which I find hard to believe considering we live in Massachusetts!). He then leaves the room briefly to check with his supervisor about whether this is really ok, and then comes back in the room saying that while it's ok, it makes him really sad and upset. Among the things he said:

- "Are you sure you don't want to change this?" (No, she says, multiple times)
- "I just don't understand. You seem like such a great person, so smart and accomplished, and yet you have this one thing."

Also, while he was giving the oral test, he asked her to name the two political parties, then asked her which one she preferred! She decided to just say Democrat, and of course the guy admitted he was a Republican, saying it was because he had been in the military.
Anyway, this didn't stop her from passing the test, but needless to say I was so shocked and infuriated that a government employee giving a citizenship test would do something like that. To her credit, she held her ground, but it was clearly inappropriate and illegal. While I've always read about things like this happening in the Bible Belt, this was the first time I'd ever heard of something like this happening to someone I know.
We're considering our options once she takes her oath (without saying that last line of course!) We've settled on reporting this to the Freedom From Religion Foundation or Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, since they're probably used to dealing with things like this. I'd be curious to hear what you all think should be done, though.
Anyway, that was a real eye-opening experience, and a few days later I began looking for an atheist forum. Having a community to talk (or b**tch) to seems even more important than ever. So here I am!  Thanks for listening.

[DeterminedJuliet]

That is absolutely horrid!
I don't blame you for being pissed. Once that employee learned that it was "really okay" from his supervisor, he should have kept his mouth shut!

[McQ]

Very glad you're here. Very pissed off that this happened to your wife. It's outrageous and the guy should be disciplined, or just f***ing canned from his job. What an ass.

[The Magic Pudding]

Too weird for words. 

[Sandra Craft]

We've settled on reporting this to the Freedom From Religion Foundation or Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, since they're probably used to dealing with things like this. I'd be curious to hear what you all think should be done, though.

I'd speak, or write, to the guy's supervisor directly as well.  He may not be aware of how far the clerk has gone (if their bureaucracy is anything like as overworked and understaffed as the one I work for is) and should have an opportunity to deal with it himself before a watchdog group turns up.  By all means tell the watchdogs too, so that they can confirm it's been taken care of (if it has).  If it hasn't, they can do whatever they do to bring pressure to bear but I think it's best to at least try to handle it internally first.  It can turn into a real can of worms once it becomes a public matter.

[Traveler]

I'm really glad you've shared this experience with us. I've wondered what I'd do if ever called to testify at a trial. As I understand it you swear to "tell the truth, the whole truth, so help me god," on a bible. I think there's an alternative available, but I've wondered what everyone would think while I stopped everything to give me the alternate. It really pisses me off to think they might want me to lie on an oath when I'm vowing to tell the truth!!!

Anyway, I'm glad you're here, and hope that you get some satisfaction on this ridiculous situation. You wife should never have had to go through that, and it adds to my despair at the direction this country is headed.

[Tank]

Not shocked at all by this. It was bound to happen to somebody at some time and it was wrong IMO. It also makes me wonder how many people do not have the courage of their convictions and never raise the issue of "So help me God" and simple say it. I would expect that is the reason why the official has never had this problem before. Fortunatly the increase in 'Militant Atheists' I.E. those prepared to say they are atheists, will probably see this sort of honesty become more prevalent.

Being British I can't offer any practical advice on who/where you should take this in the future but it is obvious that you should take this further if religious prejudice (God exists) is to be removed from public life.

Good luck with whatever you choose to do and do please keep us informed as to what happens.

[Tank]

I'm really glad you've shared this experience with us. I've wondered what I'd do if ever called to testify at a trial. As I understand it you swear to "tell the truth, the whole truth, so help me god," on a bible. I think there's an alternative available, but I've wondered what everyone would think while I stopped everything to give me the alternate. It really pisses me off to think they might want me to lie on an oath when I'm vowing to tell the truth!!!

Anyway, I'm glad you're here, and hope that you get some satisfaction on this ridiculous situation. You wife should never have had to go through that, and it adds to my despair at the direction this country is headed.

There is an alternative and a I read here that in the USA very few people actually take the oath on a bible. Bruce would know this best I would think.

[Too Few Lions]

yeah, it's an outrageous story, and it's really good you've reported it. I'd also make a complaint to the interviewer's superiors, he should definitely be disciplined, and really shouldn't be doing that job period. And a big thumbs up to your wife for standing her ground.

[Sandra Craft]

I'm really glad you've shared this experience with us. I've wondered what I'd do if ever called to testify at a trial. As I understand it you swear to "tell the truth, the whole truth, so help me god," on a bible. I think there's an alternative available, but I've wondered what everyone would think while I stopped everything to give me the alternate. It really pisses me off to think they might want me to lie on an oath when I'm vowing to tell the truth!!!

Anyway, I'm glad you're here, and hope that you get some satisfaction on this ridiculous situation. You wife should never have had to go through that, and it adds to my despair at the direction this country is headed.

There is an alternative and a I read here that in the USA very few people actually take the oath on a bible. Bruce would know this best I would think.

Yes, I think it's called "affirming" -- you affirm your word is good rather than swearing to god that it is.  But it depends on where you live whether you even need to ask to affirm.  In 3 times on jury duty, and once in court as a witness, I never saw a bible used and no one ever mentioned god, but then I live in LA county.  In the South it's probably very different.

[xSilverPhinx]

Looks more like a major annoyance than a vioation of what a secular State stands for. If the fact of her being an atheist (or of any other religion) had barred her from gaining citizenship then that would've been in a whole different ball game.

Looks to me more like an ignorant employee who took it upon himself to give unwanted advice. I'm curious to know what the supervisor said about the whole thing

In a hypothetical world where I'm boss, I wouldn't let an employee like that be in a higher decision making position.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

Sounds like this was simply an issue for this one person.  Oaths generally aren't required to be religious in nature, and the "so help me God" clause is more a traditional hangover from another time.  Most people can simply request that it not be included in the oath, and they can "affirm" instead of swearing.  I never see oaths taken on a Bible in legal situations.  Even in Central Texas where I live, the judges don't include the "So help" clause anymore.

[Firebird]

Looks more like a major annoyance than a vioation of what a secular State stands for. If the fact of her being an atheist (or of any other religion) had barred her from gaining citizenship then that would've been in a whole different ball game.

I have to disagree with you. A secular state means religion has no bearing on whether you are worthy of the rights of being a US citizen. Therefore, a representative of the government should not be implying that she needs to say "So help me God" in order to obtain citizenship. He may not have said it directly, but he strongly implied that she should do that in order to pass the exam. That, in my mind, is a violation, and one that should not be ignored. What if someone else asks to do the same thing to him and he succeeds in convincing them that they really need to leave that god line in there if they want to pass? Isn't that a violation?
I don't like conforming to the idea that this country is founded on Christian principles and that someone who holds public office has to be a believer, because it's not true. And we need to speak out when a government employee tries to say otherwise.
Sorry, I know I'm ranting here, and I mean no disrespect to how you feel. But I have strong feelings about this, as you can understand

[ThinkAnarchy]

I'd speak, or write, to the guy's supervisor directly as well.  He may not be aware of how far the clerk has gone (if their bureaucracy is anything like as overworked and understaffed as the one I work for is) and should have an opportunity to deal with it himself before a watchdog group turns up.  By all means tell the watchdogs too, so that they can confirm it's been taken care of (if it has).  If it hasn't, they can do whatever they do to bring pressure to bear but I think it's best to at least try to handle it internally first.  It can turn into a real can of worms once it becomes a public matter.

That won't do anything, it is nearly impossible to get fired from a government job.

@OP, that is messed up, but not surprising.

[Ali]

That's pretty outrageous.  I agree that I'm not entirely sure that it is a violation of the separation clause, but either way, it sucks.  Good for your wife for standing up for her convictions, even if it does make that idiot "really sad and upset."  (Cry me an effin' river, buddy.  )