News:

When one conveys certain things, particularly of such gravity, should one not then appropriately cite sources, authorities...

Main Menu

Strict immigration laws and farmers

Started by Sandra Craft, November 03, 2011, 02:59:54 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Sandra Craft

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2011/1022/Anti-illegal-immigration-bill-stokes-backlash-in-Alabama-fields

I know it looks like I'm picking on the South, but honestly it's just a co-incidence.  If some politicians have their way, this same problem will be in CA soon enough.  (I can't find anything online about it, but I heard something about AL farmers trying to use prisoners when regular laborers didn't work out, and finding that they didn't take to the long hours and hard work any better.  Perhaps it was part of a gag since I do remember Jon Stewart asking "who are you going to look to for a strong work ethic -- a car jacker or a guy who walked 500 miles to feed his kids?"  Or words to that effect.)

Anyway.  I've never been able to come to a position on this issue because there are so many sides to it and I can see the point of all of them: I think a country has a right to determine who crosses its borders and becomes a citizen, but on the other hand I think the time and money it takes to do that in America is ridiculous. 

I understand that farmers, and to a lesser extent construction companies, have a hard time finding cheap, hard working labor anywhere but among illegal immigrants and if they did without illegals they'd end up with no laborers or laborers who cost so much it would eliminate their profit -- in either case, no more farm or company.  And illegals often get ripped off by employers who give them even less than was promised, or give them nothing at all, but if illegals had some sort of protection and decent pay/benefits, we'd be back to the "can't afford it" problem. 

It's all way over my head, but this is one of the major problems of this century in America, and I believe the European Union as well.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Tank

To my mind farmers and construction companies are not above the law and thus should not make use of illegal labour, their arguments are basically bogus.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Asmodean

Here, you can run a successful farm or a construction company without using illegal workers, but some people and companies still do. Why..? They are cheap, you don't have to insure them and there is no paperwork.

And if some illegal gets ripped off in the process, so what - they don't have the right to work or, for that matter, even be here in the first place.

Today, however, our problem is open borders causing a flood of legal enough leighbour, mostly from Eastern Europe, and those people have the right to whine if they are being cheated, underpaid and sent packing. Well, whos bloody idea was it to come seeking fortune here in the first place?!

I have nothing at all against people from abroad coming to work here - we do, after all, have more jobs than people and the people we have tend to be picky about their employment. However, I think that if someone is to come here for work, that person has the responsibility to do everything right, like for instance arrange for a place to stay, proper insurance and, most importantly, a written work contract, listing how many hours a week the employee is expected to work, coin per hour before taxes and a nice description of the employee's responsibilities and rights. That done, they should not get paid off the books nor try to get out of paying taxes.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Sandra Craft

Quote from: Tank on November 03, 2011, 08:18:00 AM
To my mind farmers and construction companies are not above the law and thus should not make use of illegal labour, their arguments are basically bogus.

Except that in AL, where the illegals have pretty much been kicked off the job, the farmers are actually having their crops go to waste because they can't find enough legal laborers willing to pick it.  I can almost guarantee that if a law like this passes in CA we'll be in the same pot with our grapes and strawberries -- even if the pay were decent and the benefits were given, few Californians would put up with that much hard labor for those long hours.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Tank

Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on November 03, 2011, 02:46:12 PM
Quote from: Tank on November 03, 2011, 08:18:00 AM
To my mind farmers and construction companies are not above the law and thus should not make use of illegal labour, their arguments are basically bogus.

Except that in AL, where the illegals have pretty much been kicked off the job, the farmers are actually having their crops go to waste because they can't find enough legal laborers willing to pick it.  I can almost guarantee that if a law like this passes in CA we'll be in the same pot with our grapes and strawberries -- even if the pay were decent and the benefits were given, few Californians would put up with that much hard labor for those long hours.
An interesting conundrum!
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Davin

Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on November 03, 2011, 02:46:12 PM
Quote from: Tank on November 03, 2011, 08:18:00 AM
To my mind farmers and construction companies are not above the law and thus should not make use of illegal labour, their arguments are basically bogus.

Except that in AL, where the illegals have pretty much been kicked off the job, the farmers are actually having their crops go to waste because they can't find enough legal laborers willing to pick it.  I can almost guarantee that if a law like this passes in CA we'll be in the same pot with our grapes and strawberries -- even if the pay were decent and the benefits were given, few Californians would put up with that much hard labor for those long hours.
When things go in the wrong direction for long enough, the correction becomes more difficult and damaging. I do think the immigration laws need to be adjusted to make it much easier to become a citizen, but I also think that people shouldn't be supporting people not becoming a citizen by paying them. Taking the people who are hiring illegals to task for it is not a big deal. They will see it coming and can take measures to fire the illegals and hire legal ones.

But I'm also conflicted because I don't want to see anyone go hungry and without a decent place to live (illegal or not), so maybe there is another solution. I'm a fan of the amnisty citizenship to magically make the illegals, legal and let them keep their jobs (get paid more), and start paying their taxes. I might also make them pay a little higher tax rate for a decade or so. The problem with the amnisty is all the people who think the illegals need to be punished and kicked out.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

DeterminedJuliet

It's on a much smaller scale, but in the Valley in Nova Scotia I know they have to fly in workers from Jamaica every year because there aren't enough willing/able workers in the area to actually work on the farms. They aren't illegal workers, but I do wonder what they get paid and if the Canadian minimum wage applies to them.

On a related note, the summer before I got married I worked in a field picking strawberries for some extra cash and I can tell you it's bloody hard and tedious work. I can understand why a lot of people don't want to do it.   
"We've thought of life by analogy with a journey, with pilgrimage which had a serious purpose at the end, and the THING was to get to that end; success, or whatever it is, or maybe heaven after you're dead. But, we missed the point the whole way along; It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing, or dance, while the music was being played.

Whitney

I think that prisoner workers could work...there would just need to be further incentive for them to work...perhaps good work ethic could cut down on jail time or they can get some other perk prisoners would think was awesome.

The real problem is the pay level of that kind of job....lots of laborers are more than willing to work long hours if properly compensated; take oil hands for example.

And why does it have to be long hours?  They could always switch shifts at lunch.

Asmodean

Always wondered about that... Why can't prisoners do something productive for their free meals?! They could certainly do many different kinds of jobs.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Crow

Quote from: Asmodean on November 03, 2011, 07:12:18 PM
Always wondered about that... Why can't prisoners do something productive for their free meals?! They could certainly do many different kinds of jobs.
Like crochet! But seriously I think it's a good idea but struggling to think of a job that you could give them.
Retired member.

Asmodean

Quote from: Crow on November 03, 2011, 08:28:16 PM
Like crochet! But seriously I think it's a good idea but struggling to think of a job that you could give them.
Basket weaving.  ;D
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Whitney

Quote from: Crow on November 03, 2011, 08:28:16 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on November 03, 2011, 07:12:18 PM
Always wondered about that... Why can't prisoners do something productive for their free meals?! They could certainly do many different kinds of jobs.
Like crochet! But seriously I think it's a good idea but struggling to think of a job that you could give them.

I don't know if they still do it; but some states use to have them make license plates.

Sandra Craft

Quote from: Whitney on November 03, 2011, 06:54:09 PM
And why does it have to be long hours?  They could always switch shifts at lunch.

I've wondered that myself -- I suppose it comes down to money, it always seems to.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany