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Court Clerks and Gay Marriage

Started by Sandra Craft, September 20, 2011, 02:24:18 AM

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Sandra Craft

This subject has probably been hashed over before but it's coming up again in the news.  Seems a clerk in NY refused to issue a marriage license to a female couple.  Unfortunately for the clerk, the couple's witness was a gay right activist, who took prompt action and the fit is hitting the shan, as they say. 

Here's the link:  http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2011/09/19/new-york-clerk-refuses-to-do-her-job-marry-gay-couples/?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl17%7Csec1_lnk2%7C96935

Now, I'm not unsympathetic to people being asked to do things repugnant to them, but I know if I refused to do some part of my job the response would not be to simply make that pesky part go away.  The response would be "do it, or get out", and rightly so.  At the very least this clerk needs a reprimand on her record and re-assignment to a less responsible position (I know it can be difficult to fire civil servants).
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Tank

If the clerk has an issue with signing these dcuments then she sould resign.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

OldGit

From the clerk's point of view, she was obeying a higher law.  OK, she should expect the usual consequence, which is martyrdom.

Tank

Quote from: OldGit on September 20, 2011, 09:35:46 AM
From the clerk's point of view, she was obeying a higher law.  OK, she should expect the usual consequence, which is martyrdom.
Some old wooden railway sleepers and some nails than?
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Asmodean

Quote from: OldGit on September 20, 2011, 09:35:46 AM
OK, she should expect the usual consequence, which is martyrdom.
OR she can resign in protest and THEN make a martyr out of her poor, starving, unemployed self and her poor, starving, unemployed kids and her poor... Oh wait! By then, she'd have eaten the dog.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

OldGit

Quote from: TankSome old wooden railway sleepers and some nails than?

I was thinking more of the modern equivalent, which is outonarserdom.

Asmodean

Quote from: OldGit on September 20, 2011, 10:20:30 AM
I was thinking more of the modern equivalent, which is outonarserdom.
I thought the modern equivalent was all about whining (verbally or otherwise)..?  :-\
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

DeterminedJuliet

As far as I'm concerned, if she's an elected official, she is obligated to do her job. If she wants to protest gay marriage, she has every right to do that, but she should probably find other work and do it on her own time.

Of course, she'll probably equate herself with Martin Luther King or Gandhi, or something, for disobeying an "unjust law". ::)

"We've thought of life by analogy with a journey, with pilgrimage which had a serious purpose at the end, and the THING was to get to that end; success, or whatever it is, or maybe heaven after you're dead. But, we missed the point the whole way along; It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing, or dance, while the music was being played.

Guardian85

If you can't stand doing your job, get out.

If I hate snakes, I don't work in a zoo.
If I hate blood, I don't work in a hospital.
If I hate reading, i don't work in a library.
And if I hate gays, I dont work in a place where I have to deal with them.
(I don't hate any of the above. I'm just making a point.)


"If scientist means 'not the dumbest motherfucker in the room,' I guess I'm a scientist, then."
-Unknown Smartass-

Stevil

Quote from: Asmodean on September 20, 2011, 09:43:50 AM
Quote from: OldGit on September 20, 2011, 09:35:46 AM
OK, she should expect the usual consequence, which is martyrdom.
OR she can resign in protest and THEN make a martyr out of her poor, starving, unemployed self and her poor, starving, unemployed kids and her poor... Oh wait! By then, she'd have eaten the dog.
She could just go and create herself a God hates Fags sign and join some religious based hate group.

Yagi-Atama

But then I also understand why she might have had valid reason (from her point of view) to refuse to contract the marriage. Some believe that among lesbian couples there is higher risk of domestic abuse than among straight couples.

Tank

Quote from: Yagi-Atama on October 18, 2011, 07:18:41 PM
But then I also understand why she might have had valid reason (from her point of view) to refuse to contract the marriage. Some believe that among lesbian couples there is higher risk of domestic abuse than among straight couples.
Irrelevant, in all respects. Unless you could guarantee with 100% certainty that a relationship would degenerate to abuse you can have no opinion on the choice of others. And don't forget that a few people choose to live in a relationship that the majority of people would consider abusive. The clerk was not within her rights (as defined by her contract) to refuse to carry out the ceremony. If she has a moral issue it is with her employers, not the couple.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Ildiko

Quote from: Yagi-Atama on October 18, 2011, 07:18:41 PM
But then I also understand why she might have had valid reason (from her point of view) to refuse to contract the marriage. Some believe that among lesbian couples there is higher risk of domestic abuse than among straight couples.

Some believe that the Earth is flat but we don't as a rule employ them as navigators.

Yagi-Atama

Quote from: Tank on October 18, 2011, 07:25:05 PM
Irrelevant, in all respects. Unless you could guarantee with 100% certainty that a relationship would degenerate to abuse you can have no opinion on the choice of others. And don't forget that a few people choose to live in a relationship that the majority of people would consider abusive. The clerk was not within her rights (as defined by her contract) to refuse to carry out the ceremony. If she has a moral issue it is with her employers, not the couple.
It's very relevant, so I take a neutral approach the clerk's choice: on the one hand it was his/her job to marry them, so taking matters into her own hands and refusing to do so was definitely something... daring, to say the least. But at the same time, I can respect that the clerk was willing to be defiant for something s/he thought was obviously right.

For an example if, say, an eighty year old man and eighteen year old woman were brought before the clerk and that clerk refused to marry them out of concerns from a moral point of view, could you really blame the clerk in that circumstance? On one hand you can say "that evil clerk not doing his/her job!" but on the other, I think you can certainly respect the clerk's bravery.

Xjeepguy

Quote from: Yagi-Atama on October 18, 2011, 07:49:35 PM
Quote from: Tank on October 18, 2011, 07:25:05 PM
Irrelevant, in all respects. Unless you could guarantee with 100% certainty that a relationship would degenerate to abuse you can have no opinion on the choice of others. And don't forget that a few people choose to live in a relationship that the majority of people would consider abusive. The clerk was not within her rights (as defined by her contract) to refuse to carry out the ceremony. If she has a moral issue it is with her employers, not the couple.
It's very relevant, so I take a neutral approach the clerk's choice: on the one hand it was his/her job to marry them, so taking matters into her own hands and refusing to do so was definitely something... daring, to say the least. But at the same time, I can respect that the clerk was willing to be defiant for something s/he thought was obviously right.

For an example if, say, an eighty year old man and eighteen year old woman were brought before the clerk and that clerk refused to marry them out of concerns from a moral point of view, could you really blame the clerk in that circumstance? On one hand you can say "that evil clerk not doing his/her job!" but on the other, I think you can certainly respect the clerk's bravery.

I disagree. There is no gray area. An 80 yr old man, and an 18 yr old woman are both of legal age to get married, therefore she would also be obligated by law to grant the license, much the same way she is obligated to grant the license to the lesbian couple. The law is the law. She has no legal leg to stand on. I also do not see the clerk as brave, I see her as a bigot.
If I were re-born 1000 times, it would be as an atheist 1000 times. -Heisenberg