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Why God? Derail about ignorance

Started by iSok, September 06, 2011, 08:33:04 PM

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iSok

Quote from: Stevil on September 06, 2011, 08:05:29 PM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on September 06, 2011, 01:33:07 PM
I think it's unfair to conclude that 'us humans created God out of ignorance and need'.
Let's say that religion has been around for over 6,000 years. There are well over 6 billion people on the planet today.
With all this time and all these people, no-one has found any evidence or proof of any of the gods.

Some of the main theistic "proofs" implore the god of the gaps.
e.g. Cosmological Argument, Fine tuning argument, complexity argument.

God 100% completely comes from ignorance. I challenge you to prove otherwise.

Not too insult you, but I think you are very ignorant.
Qur'an [49:13] - "O Mankind, We created you all from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another. Verily the noblest of you in the sight of God is the most God-fearing of you. Surely God is All-Knowing, All-Aware."

Stevil

Quote from: iSok on September 06, 2011, 08:33:04 PM
Quote from: Stevil on September 06, 2011, 08:05:29 PM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on September 06, 2011, 01:33:07 PM
I think it's unfair to conclude that 'us humans created God out of ignorance and need'.
Let's say that religion has been around for over 6,000 years. There are well over 6 billion people on the planet today.
With all this time and all these people, no-one has found any evidence or proof of any of the gods.

Some of the main theistic "proofs" implore the god of the gaps.
e.g. Cosmological Argument, Fine tuning argument, complexity argument.

God 100% completely comes from ignorance. I challenge you to prove otherwise.

Not too insult you, but I think you are very ignorant.
Oh, I agree. All of us are ignorant when it comes to god. We have no knowledge what so ever about this theoretical entity.

iSok

#2
Quote from: Stevil on September 06, 2011, 08:41:40 PM
Quote from: iSok on September 06, 2011, 08:33:04 PM
Quote from: Stevil on September 06, 2011, 08:05:29 PM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on September 06, 2011, 01:33:07 PM
I think it's unfair to conclude that 'us humans created God out of ignorance and need'.
Let's say that religion has been around for over 6,000 years. There are well over 6 billion people on the planet today.
With all this time and all these people, no-one has found any evidence or proof of any of the gods.

Some of the main theistic "proofs" implore the god of the gaps.
e.g. Cosmological Argument, Fine tuning argument, complexity argument.

God 100% completely comes from ignorance. I challenge you to prove otherwise.

Not too insult you, but I think you are very ignorant.
Oh, I agree. All of us are ignorant when it comes to god. We have no knowledge what so ever about this theoretical entity.

That's not what I meant.

Consider this:
A theist forum discussing the theory of evolution and mocking scientists for their opinion that our ancestors were monkeys.
While not even considering opening a book written by one of these scientists to understand on what this theory stands.
Instead of that, you read books about evolution, whose author's reject evolution.
Convinced that you are right, you continue mocking.

I call that ignorance.
Qur'an [49:13] - "O Mankind, We created you all from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another. Verily the noblest of you in the sight of God is the most God-fearing of you. Surely God is All-Knowing, All-Aware."

iSok

Quote from: Tank on September 06, 2011, 09:24:18 PM
ISoK I have split off your derail into its own thread. Please do not attempt to distupt serious threads with derails.

Split thread can be found here http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=8221.0

My apologies, I haven't read the whole thread, but had a reponse for Stevil's post.
(You can delete the other thread)
Qur'an [49:13] - "O Mankind, We created you all from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another. Verily the noblest of you in the sight of God is the most God-fearing of you. Surely God is All-Knowing, All-Aware."

Crow

Quote from: iSok on September 06, 2011, 09:13:11 PM
That's not what I meant.

Consider this:
A theist forum discussing the theory of evolution and mocking scientists for their opinion that our ancestors were monkeys.
While not even considering opening a book written by one of these scientists to understand on what this theory stands.
Instead of that, you read books about evolution, whose author's reject evolution.
Convinced that you are right, you continue mocking.

I call that ignorance.

Ignorance in the dictionary means "a lack of knowledge or information" so you could say that the god was formed out of ignorance, as it was created by humanity trying to gain an understanding of the world around them with little understanding of how the world actually worked.

I would say the example you gave is an example of delusion and ignorance.
Retired member.

Tank

Quote from: iSok on September 06, 2011, 09:32:40 PM
Quote from: Tank on September 06, 2011, 09:24:18 PM
ISoK I have split off your derail into its own thread. Please do not attempt to distupt serious threads with derails.

Split thread can be found here http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=8221.0

My apologies, I haven't read the whole thread, but had a reponse for Stevil's post.
(You can delete the other thread)
No problem with the discussion.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

iSok

Quote from: Crow on September 06, 2011, 09:33:13 PM
Quote from: iSok on September 06, 2011, 09:13:11 PM
That's not what I meant.

Consider this:
A theist forum discussing the theory of evolution and mocking scientists for their opinion that our ancestors were monkeys.
While not even considering opening a book written by one of these scientists to understand on what this theory stands.
Instead of that, you read books about evolution, whose author's reject evolution.
Convinced that you are right, you continue mocking.

I call that ignorance.

Ignorance in the dictionary means "a lack of knowledge or information" so you could say that the god was formed out of ignorance, as it was created by humanity trying to gain an understanding of the world around them with little understanding of how the world actually worked.

I would say the example you gave is an example of delusion and ignorance.

The quest for God was never fueled by the question of How?, but always by Why?, nothing has changed so far.
Qur'an [49:13] - "O Mankind, We created you all from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another. Verily the noblest of you in the sight of God is the most God-fearing of you. Surely God is All-Knowing, All-Aware."

Asmodean

#7
Quote from: iSok on September 06, 2011, 09:13:11 PM
whose author's reject evolution.
Are you refering to Darwin..?

If you are, then the obvious question is: "So effing what?"

He was right, so what does it matter if he rejected it at some point? He paved a way for an understanding of how life got to the point it is at now and some semblance of understanding of where it is going. He was the guy who let the genie out of the bottle, yet the resulting voodoo has been demonstrated beyond his original work.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Crow

#8
Quote from: iSok on September 06, 2011, 09:39:42 PM

The quest for God was never fueled by the question of How?, but always by Why?, nothing has changed so far.

I stand corrected.

[EDIT] Actually I don't. I agree that God came from a why question rather than a how question so my original sentence still stands.
Retired member.

Stevil

Quote from: iSok on September 06, 2011, 09:39:42 PM
The quest for God was never fueled by the question of How?, but always by Why?, nothing has changed so far.
Why would an all perfect all knowing god create existence?
It makes no sense. This god knows the outcome already, has nothing to learn, nothing to gain. This god is perfect already, no requirements, no deficiencies.
Creation of existence would be superfluous to requirements. There would be no point.
It would be like us reading a single sentence over and over, every minute of our waking lives until we die. We might get something out of it the first couple of reads, but on the 1 millionth read, we are learning nothing, no entertainment, no surprises, just nothing but unrelenting boredom. It would be much worse for an all knowing, all perfect god.
This god has no need for existence.

Stevil

Quote from: iSok on September 06, 2011, 09:13:11 PM
Consider this:
A theist forum discussing the theory of evolution and mocking scientists for their opinion that our ancestors were monkeys.
While not even considering opening a book written by one of these scientists to understand on what this theory stands.
Instead of that, you read books about evolution, whose author's reject evolution.
Convinced that you are right, you continue mocking.

I call that ignorance.
Scientific books offer testable theories, they explain the assumptions and describe the theory they also go into detail with regards to the tests and experiments and math used to substantiate the theory.

Religious scripture offers a bunch of anecdotal stories, stories that the author (generally Anon) was not alive when the alleged event occurred. Stories that often make no sense and require interpretation.

There is a big difference with regards to the usefulness of reading scientific publications as opposed to reading religious scripture.

iSok

Quote from: Stevil on September 06, 2011, 10:13:45 PM
Quote from: iSok on September 06, 2011, 09:39:42 PM
The quest for God was never fueled by the question of How?, but always by Why?, nothing has changed so far.
Why would an all perfect all knowing god create existence?
It makes no sense. This god knows the outcome already, has nothing to learn, nothing to gain. This god is perfect already, no requirements, no deficiencies.
Creation of existence would be superfluous to requirements. There would be no point.
It would be like us reading a single sentence over and over, every minute of our waking lives until we die. We might get something out of it the first couple of reads, but on the 1 millionth read, we are learning nothing, no entertainment, no surprises, just nothing but unrelenting boredom. It would be much worse for an all knowing, all perfect god.
This god has no need for existence.


For the sheer pleasure of your own existence, you exist.
Qur'an [49:13] - "O Mankind, We created you all from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another. Verily the noblest of you in the sight of God is the most God-fearing of you. Surely God is All-Knowing, All-Aware."

iSok

Quote from: Stevil on September 06, 2011, 10:18:14 PM
Quote from: iSok on September 06, 2011, 09:13:11 PM
Consider this:
A theist forum discussing the theory of evolution and mocking scientists for their opinion that our ancestors were monkeys.
While not even considering opening a book written by one of these scientists to understand on what this theory stands.
Instead of that, you read books about evolution, whose author's reject evolution.
Convinced that you are right, you continue mocking.

I call that ignorance.
Scientific books offer testable theories, they explain the assumptions and describe the theory they also go into detail with regards to the tests and experiments and math used to substantiate the theory.

Religious scripture offers a bunch of anecdotal stories, stories that the author (generally Anon) was not alive when the alleged event occurred. Stories that often make no sense and require interpretation.

There is a big difference with regards to the usefulness of reading scientific publications as opposed to reading religious scripture.


I was trying to show you that man has empathy and maybe you should search for it too, by trying to place yourself in the thought process of other's.
You refuse to read anything about religion, but complain at the same time that it's ridiculous.

'Atheists are just satan worshippers, they are secretly helping satan and promote the theory of evolution; how can it be true in the first place?
why are there still monkey?!'
Qur'an [49:13] - "O Mankind, We created you all from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another. Verily the noblest of you in the sight of God is the most God-fearing of you. Surely God is All-Knowing, All-Aware."

McQ

Quote from: iSok on September 06, 2011, 10:23:01 PM

I was trying to show you that man has empathy and maybe you should search for it too, by trying to place yourself in the thought process of other's.
You refuse to read anything about religion, but complain at the same time that it's ridiculous.

'Atheists are just satan worshippers, they are secretly helping satan and promote the theory of evolution; how can it be true in the first place?
why are there still monkey?!'


I actually understand and empathize with this point, iSok. It is very true that too often, people on opposing sides of argument do not take the time to adequately educate themselves on the "other" side.

I become equally frustrated at people who argue from ignorance, no matter what their position on subjects. I've been guilty of it in the past myself, but have tried very hard to learn from that and stop myself doing it again.

Atheists, or people who are simply non-theists who ridicule without understanding what it is they are railing against do not impress me. Neither do they help themselves very much. Same holds true for theists who ignorantly argue about atheists without knowing what an atheist is (I was once one of them, and very ignorant, sadly).

Anyway, good point.

Elvis didn't do no drugs!
--Penn Jillette

Stevil

Quote from: iSok on September 06, 2011, 10:18:47 PM
Quote from: Stevil on September 06, 2011, 10:13:45 PM
Quote from: iSok on September 06, 2011, 09:39:42 PM
The quest for God was never fueled by the question of How?, but always by Why?, nothing has changed so far.
Why would an all perfect all knowing god create existence?
It makes no sense. This god knows the outcome already, has nothing to learn, nothing to gain. This god is perfect already, no requirements, no deficiencies.
Creation of existence would be superfluous to requirements. There would be no point.
It would be like us reading a single sentence over and over, every minute of our waking lives until we die. We might get something out of it the first couple of reads, but on the 1 millionth read, we are learning nothing, no entertainment, no surprises, just nothing but unrelenting boredom. It would be much worse for an all knowing, all perfect god.
This god has no need for existence.

For the sheer pleasure of your own existence, you exist.
If the quest is Why, then this answer you have offered is not very enlightening.
God takes pleasure in my existence? Was god lacking that pleasure before I existed? I feel so special!