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Communism

Started by hunterman317, November 10, 2010, 09:31:14 PM

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hunterman317

I don't believe in socialism, but what's wrong with pure communism? Short of a dictator, I think it has worked quite nicely in the past. It's just that, in the past, it's been stopped by war. I believe most modern "communist" countries are dictatorships as a result of defeat in Vietnam. In short, the world got out of control and we don't have enough resources to be the true world police office. Think of Nazi Germany (well, minus the hate of minorities) and modern day China (I guess minus the hate of minorities too).
And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence~
Bertrand Russell

The Government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian religion~
John Adams, 2nd President of the United States

Pray. Maybe the aliens will hear you~

Dretlin

Quote from: "hunterman317"I don't believe in socialism, but what's wrong with pure communism? Short of a dictator, I think it has worked quite nicely in the past. It's just that, in the past, it's been stopped by war. I believe most modern "communist" countries are dictatorships as a result of defeat in Vietnam. In short, the world got out of control and we don't have enough resources to be the true world police office. Think of Nazi Germany (well, minus the hate of minorities) and modern day China (I guess minus the hate of minorities too).

I do not think the world needs further evidence that Communism does not work. And I am not quite sure what you mean by "world police".

And China today can be argued, quite well, is only Communist in title and nothing else.

Thumpalumpacus

Quote from: "hunterman317"I don't believe in socialism, but what's wrong with pure communism? Short of a dictator, I think it has worked quite nicely in the past. It's just that, in the past, it's been stopped by war. I believe most modern "communist" countries are dictatorships as a result of defeat in Vietnam. In short, the world got out of control and we don't have enough resources to be the true world police office. Think of Nazi Germany (well, minus the hate of minorities) and modern day China (I guess minus the hate of minorities too).

No, Communism is no answer.  Like Libertarianism, it sounds great until you realize that its framers forgot one thing:  human nature.
Illegitimi non carborundum.

Asmodean

No system is perfect once implemented.

A matter of personal preference, but I myself am non-socialist and therefor can not be a communist since some of my core values are exactly the opposite of the communist ones. You see, I am in no way a believer in "enough for everyone" nor am I a supporter of setting caps on personal ambitions or on the right of moneybags to be moneybags. Just a few examples...
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

jduster

A person saying they want communism without an oppressive dictatorship is like a person saying they want to sleep bare outside for the whole winter without becoming ill.

Yes, communism may sound idyllic in theory, but as of now, there is no way to implement it in reality successfully.  

Correct me if I am wrong.

dloubet

Quotenor am I a supporter of setting caps on personal ambitions or on the right of moneybags to be moneybags.

Nor I, except when the moneybags use their money as influence to make sure the poor get poorer.

Asmodean

Quote from: "dloubet"Nor I, except when the moneybags use their money as influence to make sure the poor get poorer.
In all fairness, I don't think that is their objective, but a side effect of them reaching their goals.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Will

Pure communism is stateless and has only been attempted in very small communities to mixed results. I like the idea, it's very egalitarian and seeks to promote fairness and social justice, but I can't see it being useful on a planet of nearly 7 billion people. Communism is perfect for societies that are smaller. It works in circumstances where even if one were to collect all the power unto him or herself, it would be negligible, and thus more beneficial to work for the common good.

I'm very, very frustrated when countries claim to be communist and are actually nothing of the sort. The USSR was never really communist. China isn't communist. Cuba isn't even communist. Calling themselves communist does not make it so, and it only makes it easier to confuse anti-communists and capitalists.

If Earth is ever struck with a disaster which leaves only a small fraction of humans, that would be an ideal time to test communism. When humans move out into space to colonize worlds for the first time, that would be an ideal time to test communism.
I want bad people to look forward to and celebrate the day I die, because if they don't, I'm not living up to my potential.

elliebean

Quote from: "Asmodean"
Quote from: "dloubet"Nor I, except when the moneybags use their money as influence to make sure the poor get poorer.
In all fairness, I don't think that is their objective, but a side effect of them reaching their goals.
Collateral damage, you might say?
[size=150]â€"Ellie [/size]
You can’t lie to yourself. If you do you’ve only fooled a deluded person and where’s the victory in that?â€"Ricky Gervais

penfold

I think one of the difficulties is that communism can mean so many different things.

The original scientific socialists, Marx and Engels, primarily focused on analysing early capitalism. They saw capital as inherently unstable and doomed to collapse. This would trigger a global revolution by the workers. This in time would lead to a classless state (ie communism). What exactly a classless or communist state involved is never really described. In this sense communism was proved wrong by history, the global revolution never happened and the industrial class system these writings talk of has gone; changed into a more corporate, global, model.

As for the various self-named communist countries, even they have many different meanings of communism. Mao's China was a different place from Soviet Russia. In fact Mao's communism is radically different to modern Chinese communism. Vietnam's communism was urban, stable and mostly benign, across the border in Laos Pol Pot's communism emptied the cities and murdered a third of their own population. Cuba trained doctors, the USSR built missiles. None of them achieved a classless state nor arose from a global revolution of workers.

The term communism is unhelpful, so diverse it has become meaningless. The people who seem to have the clearest idea of communism are those who are vocally 'anti-communist'. It makes a useful bogyman, standing opposed to freedom (itself another ill-defined word).

Names are unhelpful. How we should self organise is a fascinating question, and urgent need. Currently things are as they are; and the result is appalling cruelty. Gluttony in proximity to starvation, our excess feeds off those who have so little to start with. If we could only get past the ideology and the names and see things clearly, we might just make things better.

hunterman317

Quote from: "jduster"A person saying they want communism without an oppressive dictatorship is like a person saying they want to sleep bare outside for the whole winter without becoming ill.

Yes, communism may sound idyllic in theory, but as of now, there is no way to implement it in reality successfully.  

Correct me if I am wrong.

There's a thousand ways to skin a cat. It's better to straight skin it, though, than chop it all to pieces. As a free thinker, I know that any form of government can be successful with enough wealth and structure.

Quote from: "Will"Pure communism is stateless and has only been attempted in very small communities to mixed results. I like the idea, it's very egalitarian and seeks to promote fairness and social justice, but I can't see it being useful on a planet of nearly 7 billion people. Communism is perfect for societies that are smaller. It works in circumstances where even if one were to collect all the power unto him or herself, it would be negligible, and thus more beneficial to work for the common good.

I'm very, very frustrated when countries claim to be communist and are actually nothing of the sort. The USSR was never really communist. China isn't communist. Cuba isn't even communist. Calling themselves communist does not make it so, and it only makes it easier to confuse anti-communists and capitalists.

If Earth is ever struck with a disaster which leaves only a small fraction of humans, that would be an ideal time to test communism. When humans move out into space to colonize worlds for the first time, that would be an ideal time to test communism.

If the USSR and China were and are not communist, then who is?

Quote from: "elliebean"
Quote from: "Asmodean"
Quote from: "dloubet"Nor I, except when the moneybags use their money as influence to make sure the poor get poorer.
In all fairness, I don't think that is their objective, but a side effect of them reaching their goals.
Collateral damage, you might say?

I agree with this. This is the reason I started the topic in the first place. What about communism in a society with a system of morals, and leaders who also followed them?

Not trying to undercut the founders/leaders of the forum in any way at all.
And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence~
Bertrand Russell

The Government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian religion~
John Adams, 2nd President of the United States

Pray. Maybe the aliens will hear you~

Will

Quote from: "penfold"I think one of the difficulties is that communism can mean so many different things.

The original scientific socialists, Marx and Engels, primarily focused on analysing early capitalism. They saw capital as inherently unstable and doomed to collapse. This would trigger a global revolution by the workers. This in time would lead to a classless state (ie communism). What exactly a classless or communist state involved is never really described. In this sense communism was proved wrong by history, the global revolution never happened and the industrial class system these writings talk of has gone; changed into a more corporate, global, model.
The timescale was off, but things seem to be progressing exactly as modeled. Less and less power is with the workers in rich countries and more and more money is finding its way to the top 1% of the populations. This is obviously unsustainable. Either the governments will have to step in, which is unlikely due to the level of influence corporations have in government, or there will be revolution in one form or another.
I want bad people to look forward to and celebrate the day I die, because if they don't, I'm not living up to my potential.

Croaker

I'm curious as to why it fails - what is it about humans that makes it so hard to maintain?

Keeping things 'equal' can be difficult, since many people have many views of what their contribution is. Dividing up the duties of a household between my wife and I can be tricky, since we both work full time - I typically cook, clean the house and buy groceries (ahh, how... un-manly). She handles anything kid-related, does laundry (she hates the way I fold things) and other things, unknown to me. It'd be easy for me to say "Hey, I do more, pull your weight or whatever" but I can't fairly say that when I don't know how hard the things she does are. Much easier to just say to myself, don't worry about it, it's all good and carry on. Getting things perfectly equal would require too much work, and it's a purely subjective matter anyways. All things considered, maybe I'm the slacker. My wife seems to be like me, though - never tells me to do more, just happy with what I do.

Maybe that kind of mentality is rare, though; hence the problem with communism? :idea:

Thumpalumpacus

Quote from: "Croaker"I'm curious as to why it fails - what is it about humans that makes it so hard to maintain?

In a word, greed.
Illegitimi non carborundum.

Inevitable Droid

Quote from: "hunterman317"I don't believe in socialism, but what's wrong with pure communism?

How do you define socialism and how do you define pure communism?

Why don't you believe in socialism?

As for me, I think robotics will eventually shake society to its roots.  When robots can do anything human laborers can do, and cost the corporations far less, robots will put humans out of work.  What happens next will be anyone's guess.  It won't surprise me if it involves bullets.
Oppose Abraham.

[Missing image]

In the face of mystery, do science, not theology.