hello everyone

[humblesmurph]

Hey all.  Just introducing myself.  I guess most would call me an atheist.  I wasn't turned off to religion by angry nuns, overly friendly priests, or some string of catastrophic events--I simply never believed.  Everyone I know is a theist--even if they abhor organized religion.

  I came here to get a better understanding on how to get along with theists once everything is out in the open.  Specifically, if the theist thinks the atheist is immoral/amoral and/or going to hell and the atheist thinks the theist is an idiot or somehow complicit in the destruction of humanity, how could they ever really be friends/lovers as opposed to simply tolerant of each other.

BTW, it shouldn't matter at all, but I am black, which seems to be a peculiar condition (at least in the USA) given my stance on the supernatural.

[pinkocommie]

Welcome to the forum!  I have lots of friends who are religious - I guess normally what tends to happen in my experience is that I just don't talk about religion with those people.  And really in every day life, it's a topic that's pretty easily avoided.  As for a more intimate relationship with a theist, I can't help you there, but I think McQ is married to a theist and a few other people have religious partners as well.  From what I read it sounds like a challenge, but not an insurmountable one.  Hopefully they can give you some better insights.    Good luck!

[The Magic Pudding]

This topic is popular here, but I don't live in that kind of society so I can't offer anything useful.
Welcome

[Recusant]

Hello, and welcome to HAF, humblesmurph.  

In my experience, the question of religious belief, or lack thereof very rarely comes up when you're first getting to know somebody. If it does, I take that as a warning sign.  I don't advertise my lack of belief, so it'd be the other person who would be bringing up the subject of religion.  If they're doing that with somebody they hardly know, then it's probable that they take it very seriously, and may in fact be evangelical.  Depending on the situation, I may simply say, "It's not really any of your business," or maybe a more polite version, like, "I think religious beliefs are a very personal, private matter, and I don't know you very well."  That's if I'm not feeling particularly confrontational.  If they're being a jerk, and I have no reason to be polite to them, I might say "I don't believe in your god, or any of the thousands of other gods people have made up."  Just saying, "I'm an atheist" works fine, of course.  Really, like I said above, the fact that somebody is bringing religion into the mix so early is a red flag. Generally, such a person and I don't have much of a future together. So I might have a little fun with them, and tell them I'm a Zoroastrian.  Or, more commonly, Buddhist.  For some reason that last one seems to shut a lot of evangelicals up. In fact, I think that the Buddha had a lot of good things to say, and didn't posit any deity at all, though later forms of Buddhism certainly filled up with a fair number of what might be called "quasi-deities." Better to study up a little if you're going to use the "dummy religion" ploy though.  You should at least be able to spout some basic doctrines of your "chosen faith" so as to confound the nosy god-botherer.

Anyway, most normal people don't get to talking about religion till they know each other fairly well.  By that time, it shouldn't matter to them that you're atheist.  They should be able to tell by then that you're a good person.  As long as they have some respect, and don't make a big thing of trying to save your soul, it should be cool.  If it isn't, then so be it. Somebody who doesn't value your friendship enough to accept you and your lack of belief is most likely not somebody you really want as a friend anyway.  I don't blame individual religious people for the evils of religion, let alone the fact that they're delusional, so that's not an issue for me. Nor do I call them 'delusional' in conversation, that's just rude.

For me, it comes down to this; I don't like it when people get in my face with their god thing.  So why would it be appropriate for me to get in theirs with my no-god thing (thus no advertising). Don't underestimate "mere tolerance."  It's a rare enough thing in this world.  I kind of doubt that any of the above actually answers your question, but I thought I'd give you my take on it, just to be sociable.

i hope you enjoy your time reading and posting here.

[Whitney]

BTW, it shouldn't matter at all, but I am black, which seems to be a peculiar condition (at least in the USA) given my stance on the supernatural.

I have a friend who frequently writes "token" on his name tag because he is usually the only black person (other than his kids) at secular events.  It shouldn't matter but apparently some members of the black religious community have been telling black atheists that they aren't really black because they don't love god...that doesn't make sense to me and hope you aren't running into those types.

[humblesmurph]

Thanks for the insight.  Besides my immediate family, most notably my brother (a crack addicted thief), I haven't had any problems with people trying to ostracize me for my beliefs.  I've had romantic relationships with ardent Church going Christians while being open about my unshakable atheism.  Furthermore, I have no problem with in your face Christians.  If I truly believed that my friend was going to hell, I would do my best to keep her from that fate.

[Tank]

Hi humblesmurph

Fortunately there was never any friction in my family over religion until my nephew went to see Billy Graham when he was 18, about 22 years ago. My wife and kids are all atheist and always have been. That's not to say they don't enjoy a bit of 'woo', as I type this my Wife and daughters are with a medium having 'readings'  :upset:

Welcome aboard.

Regards
Chris

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Forum Rules More of a set of guidelines really, upset Whitney (She who must be obeyed) and you'll find the exit door very quickly!
How do I use the quote feature? If you are new to forums this is an important feature to understand. The maximum number of nested quotes is 3.
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What's on your mind today? The general chit chat thread.
Somewhere to discuss the fear of dying. Many ex-theists have to come to terms with death, this is a place to discuss this issue.
How to tell your family you are an atheist. Some suggestions about how to deal with this thorny issue.
Parenting Beyond Belief. The forum for discussing how to raise your children 'Faith Free'.
Just a little advice for new Atheists Some thoughts for those new to reality.
.

[humblesmurph]

That's funny, I was just going to start a thread, or research an old one about superstitions.  I would have thought that the same critical mind that leads you away from god in a world dominated by theists would lead you away from rabbits feet, readings, and horoscopes.  As Penn Jillette said "we all have our gris gris"

[Tank]

That's funny, I was just going to start a thread, or research an old one about superstitions.  I would have thought that the same critical mind that leads you away from god in a world dominated by theists would lead you away from rabbits feet, readings, and horoscopes.  As Penn Jillette said "we all have our gris gris"

Well you'd think so wouldn't you! My wife has a PhD in the area of psychology, published in a number of books and multiple countries!

[McQ]

Welcome to the forum. Glad you jumped right in. As pinkocommie mentioned, I am indeed married to a theist. Happy to offer experiences that have helped her and me deal with each other. I think it's possible to overcome most differences if there is a deeper and abiding mutual respect going on. But it is work, like most relationships.

Anyway, glad to have you here!

[humblesmurph]

Welcome to the forum. Glad you jumped right in. As pinkocommie mentioned, I am indeed married to a theist. Happy to offer experiences that have helped her and me deal with each other. I think it's possible to overcome most differences if there is a deeper and abiding mutual respect going on. But it is work, like most relationships.

Anyway, glad to have you here!

Thanks for the response. My first question is--Do you have to take every inconsistency on an individual basis, or do you have some underlying principle that you rely upon to just accept her theism?

In my experience when I have had relationships with theists, they thought I was a lost soul that would eventually come around to God.  I thought that they were otherwise good people who were just brainwashed.  Both views seem patronizing and not conducive to a healthy relationship.

[McQ]

Welcome to the forum. Glad you jumped right in. As pinkocommie mentioned, I am indeed married to a theist. Happy to offer experiences that have helped her and me deal with each other. I think it's possible to overcome most differences if there is a deeper and abiding mutual respect going on. But it is work, like most relationships.

Anyway, glad to have you here!

Thanks for the response. My first question is--Do you have to take every inconsistency on an individual basis, or do you have some underlying principle that you rely upon to just accept her theism?

Well, to be clear, and fair, I was a believer too, for much of my life. At least, as far as what I would consider many christians to be. That is, they say they're christians because that's the way they were raised. More of a social psychology thing, in my opinion. I was raised roman catholic, but also became a born-again christian in college, where I met my wife. So we were both believers together first. Long story short, I never bought into the literal bible stuff though, which made me study and question other aspects of it.

That said, I have been able to talk with my wife about all the things we believed, and she has also doubted much of the bible, but has not abandoned a belief in a spiritual world. It's complicated, and I don't want to write too much about it, but we came to some general agreements on many aspects of religion which we can live with. Like she won't make claims of things she can't provide evidence for, or she'll face a line of questioning skepticism from me! And I leave her personal experiences alone.  

In my experience when I have had relationships with theists, they thought I was a lost soul that would eventually come around to God.  I thought that they were otherwise good people who were just brainwashed.  Both views seem patronizing and not conducive to a healthy relationship.

Yeah, and there's the difference I see in the situation you have. My wife and I started out on the same sheet of music as far as those beliefs went, but I made a big change, and she's made minor changes in beliefs. But we both already had love and respect for one another, regardless of those things. That's tough to do, when you meet someone who doesn't start from the same point as you.

Don't know that I have any helpful things in there, but that's the basic gist of where I am with this.