Author Topic: Alternative Facts  (Read 1171 times)

Dave

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Re: Alternative Facts
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2017, 10:23:38 PM »
Never, ever, trust a politician.
I feel like that's the path the lead to Trump. We have to be able to trust them, though not blindly. They are supposed to be our representatives, we are supposed to be able to trust them with the job. There are more honest ones out there, ones we can trust. But this blanket statement of "never trust a politician" is the same thing that many Trump supporters were rallying around. they voted for Trump because he wasn't a politician.

Maybe I'm being too sensitive, but I do think that there are politicians we can trust and we should be looking for more that we can trust.

Agreed. Before Reagan, the electorate generally trusted the government to do the right thing. Reagan ushered in a period of cynicism towards government and its ability to help, and that mentality has persisted ever since. It's done enormous damage already. You can see Trump et al trying to do the same to the media now too with stunts like this. And unfortunately, it might still work, as you can see by people's attitudes towards the "mainstream media" .
Yeah, my parents repeat that shit way too often even though my mother was anti-Reagan the slogan still stuck.

Like I mentioned in replying to Gloucester, I think we need to entrust them, even the bad ones, because we need to hold them responsible for their actions and not shrug off bad behavior like, "well, he is a politician, they all do that."

There is something of a difference between how your systems works and ours. The biggest difference is that we do not have an elected and representative upper house - just a bunch of people we hope are more experienced, wiser and less partisan than the lower house. And it includes clergy . . .

Our lower house votes mainly on the party line on important stuff, not really that representative except in minor stuff.

America looks more like an alliance of "states" in tge old histirocal sense, a federation of almost separate countries sharing a few common laws and services. A far stronger history of their politicians fighting for the local industries and jobs.

Here it is blanket policies, the political parties try to put together a package that seems attractive to all, but almost always hurts a large slice of the population, usually the lower classes and the disabled with the Tories. I have heard MPs telling terrible stories from the results of some policies, premature death and suicide - but it rarely makes much difference.

More and more contactors in the health and benefit areas are proving themselves incompetent and money wasters, but they keep giving them the contracts. That is the policy, no amount of local representation short of a general election will change it. And Labour are a failed party at the moment IMHO.

Pardon any typos I may have missed please.
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Re: Alternative Facts
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2017, 10:59:12 PM »
Never, ever, trust a politician.
I feel like that's the path the lead to Trump. We have to be able to trust them, though not blindly. They are supposed to be our representatives, we are supposed to be able to trust them with the job. There are more honest ones out there, ones we can trust. But this blanket statement of "never trust a politician" is the same thing that many Trump supporters were rallying around. they voted for Trump because he wasn't a politician.

Maybe I'm being too sensitive, but I do think that there are politicians we can trust and we should be looking for more that we can trust.

Agreed. Before Reagan, the electorate generally trusted the government to do the right thing. Reagan ushered in a period of cynicism towards government and its ability to help, and that mentality has persisted ever since. It's done enormous damage already. You can see Trump et al trying to do the same to the media now too with stunts like this. And unfortunately, it might still work, as you can see by people's attitudes towards the "mainstream media" .
Yeah, my parents repeat that shit way too often even though my mother was anti-Reagan the slogan still stuck.

Like I mentioned in replying to Gloucester, I think we need to entrust them, even the bad ones, because we need to hold them responsible for their actions and not shrug off bad behavior like, "well, he is a politician, they all do that."

There is something of a difference between how your systems works and ours. The biggest difference is that we do not have an elected and representative upper house - just a bunch of people we hope are more experienced, wiser and less partisan than the lower house. And it includes clergy . . .

Our lower house votes mainly on the party line on important stuff, not really that representative except in minor stuff.

America looks more like an alliance of "states" in tge old histirocal sense, a federation of almost separate countries sharing a few common laws and services. A far stronger history of their politicians fighting for the local industries and jobs.

Here it is blanket policies, the political parties try to put together a package that seems attractive to all, but almost always hurts a large slice of the population, usually the lower classes and the disabled with the Tories. I have heard MPs telling terrible stories from the results of some policies, premature death and suicide - but it rarely makes much difference.

More and more contactors in the health and benefit areas are proving themselves incompetent and money wasters, but they keep giving them the contracts. That is the policy, no amount of local representation short of a general election will change it. And Labour are a failed party at the moment IMHO.

Pardon any typos I may have missed please.

We still get blanket policies and it's what gets most public attention. We rarely hear about state laws and never hear about city laws. This system worked when it was 13 colonies but we are a empire now. Someone in new York has to follow the same rules as someone in Hawaii. That can leave a lot of disagreement with current laws that may not gain steam because your peers are on the other end of the country and you probably won't even know about each other. So you get what we have now, a lot of marginalised movements because they don't get the support and criticism they would normally get in the original states. And something tells me that, that situation made for movements to take power quickly or be shot down immediately.
But, uh...well there it is.
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Dave

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Re: Alternative Facts
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2017, 08:04:08 AM »
I should have added that our upper house is largely a talking shop with very limited powers to change any lower house decisions, they can basically only delay them.

And they are placemen in essence, appointed/elevated by the main party leaders - the public get no say and they can be there 'til they die.
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Davin

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Re: Alternative Facts
« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2017, 01:42:16 PM »
Yeah, my parents repeat that shit way too often even though my mother was anti-Reagan the slogan still stuck.

Like I mentioned in replying to Gloucester, I think we need to entrust them, even the bad ones, because we need to hold them responsible for their actions and not shrug off bad behavior like, "well, he is a politician, they all do that."

There is something of a difference between how your systems works and ours. The biggest difference is that we do not have an elected and representative upper house - just a bunch of people we hope are more experienced, wiser and less partisan than the lower house. And it includes clergy . . .

Our lower house votes mainly on the party line on important stuff, not really that representative except in minor stuff.

America looks more like an alliance of "states" in tge old histirocal sense, a federation of almost separate countries sharing a few common laws and services. A far stronger history of their politicians fighting for the local industries and jobs.

Here it is blanket policies, the political parties try to put together a package that seems attractive to all, but almost always hurts a large slice of the population, usually the lower classes and the disabled with the Tories. I have heard MPs telling terrible stories from the results of some policies, premature death and suicide - but it rarely makes much difference.

More and more contactors in the health and benefit areas are proving themselves incompetent and money wasters, but they keep giving them the contracts. That is the policy, no amount of local representation short of a general election will change it. And Labour are a failed party at the moment IMHO.

Pardon any typos I may have missed please.
Some similar things, some different things. I don't see how that makes my approach not work, but I don't think you should take the time to describe the how your whole government works to show why my mentality doesn't work. We don't have to agree to disagree, but in the interests of time vs. worth, we may not want to continue talking about it.

As for typos, they happen. The only time I attack typos, is if the person making is criticizing another person's typing, and then it's usually just a joke or a warning to not criticize writing mistakes while making them. I care more about what a person means than how they say it.

Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Davin

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Re: Alternative Facts
« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2017, 01:54:44 PM »
That is a good point. We sort of turned the politician into a descriminated second class, even though they are still the ruling class. Interesting.
I think it's more than just discrimination, I think it makes people less angry when they should properly be angry. Because they are expecting a politician to do something bad and when a politician does, instead of getting properly angry, they just get a little angry and then accept it without much of a fight. Alternatively, even if a politician doesn't do something bad (so far so good for Obama), people still think they're a bad, untrustable politician. So even when there is a politician that they should trust, they don't.

We still get blanket policies and it's what gets most public attention. We rarely hear about state laws and never hear about city laws. This system worked when it was 13 colonies but we are a empire now. Someone in new York has to follow the same rules as someone in Hawaii. That can leave a lot of disagreement with current laws that may not gain steam because your peers are on the other end of the country and you probably won't even know about each other. So you get what we have now, a lot of marginalised movements because they don't get the support and criticism they would normally get in the original states. And something tells me that, that situation made for movements to take power quickly or be shot down immediately.
A bit off topic: I think a lot of the federal stuff comes from national corporations, because they want to be able to operate pretty much the same way in every state to save money and expertise. Imagine if they had to hire 50 business teams to run a national corporation. Not only would it make their businesses a nightmare to organize and plan, but it would be much more expensive too. Most companies that I am familiar with will run regions which is usually divided up by amount of business of which some include several states and some states like California might have two regions. Anyway, I like the homogenization of most laws, so I think there are some good things that come from the business sector. But I think they are currently doing more harm than good.

Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Arturo

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Re: Alternative Facts
« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2017, 09:06:32 PM »
That is a good point. We sort of turned the politician into a descriminated second class, even though they are still the ruling class. Interesting.
I think it's more than just discrimination, I think it makes people less angry when they should properly be angry. Because they are expecting a politician to do something bad and when a politician does, instead of getting properly angry, they just get a little angry and then accept it without much of a fight. Alternatively, even if a politician doesn't do something bad (so far so good for Obama), people still think they're a bad, untrustable politician. So even when there is a politician that they should trust, they don't.
I see, so your solution is people to trust their representatives again.

I don't see that happening, people don't like being taught things and I think a lot of baby boomers like loud mouth retards with a lot of insecurities.

On the other hand, there seem to be people still protesting so maybe they don't need to be taught.

We still get blanket policies and it's what gets most public attention. We rarely hear about state laws and never hear about city laws. This system worked when it was 13 colonies but we are a empire now. Someone in new York has to follow the same rules as someone in Hawaii. That can leave a lot of disagreement with current laws that may not gain steam because your peers are on the other end of the country and you probably won't even know about each other. So you get what we have now, a lot of marginalised movements because they don't get the support and criticism they would normally get in the original states. And something tells me that, that situation made for movements to take power quickly or be shot down immediately.
A bit off topic: I think a lot of the federal stuff comes from national corporations, because they want to be able to operate pretty much the same way in every state to save money and expertise. Imagine if they had to hire 50 business teams to run a national corporation. Not only would it make their businesses a nightmare to organize and plan, but it would be much more expensive too. Most companies that I am familiar with will run regions which is usually divided up by amount of business of which some include several states and some states like California might have two regions. Anyway, I like the homogenization of most laws, so I think there are some good things that come from the business sector. But I think they are currently doing more harm than good.

That's interesting. I will have to think about it for awhile.
But, uh...well there it is.
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Davin

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Re: Alternative Facts
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2017, 01:59:30 PM »
That is a good point. We sort of turned the politician into a descriminated second class, even though they are still the ruling class. Interesting.
I think it's more than just discrimination, I think it makes people less angry when they should properly be angry. Because they are expecting a politician to do something bad and when a politician does, instead of getting properly angry, they just get a little angry and then accept it without much of a fight. Alternatively, even if a politician doesn't do something bad (so far so good for Obama), people still think they're a bad, untrustable politician. So even when there is a politician that they should trust, they don't.
I see, so your solution is people to trust their representatives again.

I don't see that happening, people don't like being taught things and I think a lot of baby boomers like loud mouth retards with a lot of insecurities.

On the other hand, there seem to be people still protesting so maybe they don't need to be taught.
My solution isn't necessarily to get people to trust their government again, it's to challenge the feeling that all politicians are bad. I think people should be able to trust their government representatives, but not blindly. Ideas unchallenged sometimes flourish, and this "all politicians are dishonest fuckers" one seems to be doing quite well, because most people will agree that you shouldn't blindly trust politicians. Maybe a new catchy saying will work, but I'm terrible at those. It's tough to teach people things, and impossible if they don't want to learn, but most people already know enough.

Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Recusant

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Re: Alternative Facts
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2017, 04:36:23 PM »
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
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Arturo

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Re: Alternative Facts
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2017, 10:28:42 PM »
That is a good point. We sort of turned the politician into a descriminated second class, even though they are still the ruling class. Interesting.
I think it's more than just discrimination, I think it makes people less angry when they should properly be angry. Because they are expecting a politician to do something bad and when a politician does, instead of getting properly angry, they just get a little angry and then accept it without much of a fight. Alternatively, even if a politician doesn't do something bad (so far so good for Obama), people still think they're a bad, untrustable politician. So even when there is a politician that they should trust, they don't.
I see, so your solution is people to trust their representatives again.

I don't see that happening, people don't like being taught things and I think a lot of baby boomers like loud mouth retards with a lot of insecurities.

On the other hand, there seem to be people still protesting so maybe they don't need to be taught.
My solution isn't necessarily to get people to trust their government again, it's to challenge the feeling that all politicians are bad. I think people should be able to trust their government representatives, but not blindly. Ideas unchallenged sometimes flourish, and this "all politicians are dishonest fuckers" one seems to be doing quite well, because most people will agree that you shouldn't blindly trust politicians. Maybe a new catchy saying will work, but I'm terrible at those. It's tough to teach people things, and impossible if they don't want to learn, but most people already know enough.

"Be skeptical of your own skepticism" maybe? It sounds like you want people to stop judging books by their cover, or probably more suiting, the pages they haven't even read.
But, uh...well there it is.
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Davin

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Re: Alternative Facts
« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2017, 08:47:01 PM »
I like, "think for yourself, question authority." But then a lot of people that also like that tend to not listen to the answers to the questions. Asking questions isn't very useful if you never get any answers and less so if you ignore the answers. Of course I'm not good at this. Obviously.

Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Dave

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Re: Alternative Facts
« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2017, 09:00:24 PM »
I like, "think for yourself, question authority." But then a lot of people that also like that tend to not listen to the answers to the questions. Asking questions isn't very useful if you never get any answers and less so if you ignore the answers. Of course I'm not good at this. Obviously.

Also useful to be able to differentiate between false/irrelevant answers and true/relevant. Hmm, how fo you judge the veracity of the answer unless it is either obviously logically correct or blindingly wrong? Nuance is a dicey thing here.

Authority does not always equate accuracy.
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Davin

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Re: Alternative Facts
« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2017, 09:36:02 PM »
I like, "think for yourself, question authority." But then a lot of people that also like that tend to not listen to the answers to the questions. Asking questions isn't very useful if you never get any answers and less so if you ignore the answers. Of course I'm not good at this. Obviously.

Also useful to be able to differentiate between false/irrelevant answers and true/relevant. Hmm, how fo you judge the veracity of the answer unless it is either obviously logically correct or blindingly wrong? Nuance is a dicey thing here.

Authority does not always equate accuracy.
If the answer is coming from a real authority (as opposed to a fraud), then that authority will have more than, "because I said so." And authority on the subject should be able to back their shit up to the point that you do not need to trust them because you will then have the facts.

Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Dave

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Re: Alternative Facts
« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2017, 10:07:17 PM »
I like, "think for yourself, question authority." But then a lot of people that also like that tend to not listen to the answers to the questions. Asking questions isn't very useful if you never get any answers and less so if you ignore the answers. Of course I'm not good at this. Obviously.

Also useful to be able to differentiate between false/irrelevant answers and true/relevant. Hmm, how fo you judge the veracity of the answer unless it is either obviously logically correct or blindingly wrong? Nuance is a dicey thing here.

Authority does not always equate accuracy.
If the answer is coming from a real authority (as opposed to a fraud), then that authority will have more than, "because I said so." And authority on the subject should be able to back their shit up to the point that you do not need to trust them because you will then have the facts.

I'll go for "genuine authority" rather than "real authority", just feels better. ;)

"Authority" is too often used as a "rank" rather than a "qualification", the little old illiterate lady down the road might be an "authority" in growing some exotic plant, say. I wonder how may authorities have proved to be wrong by history?

I used to tell my nieces and nephews, "If you have trouble understanfing or accepting something a teacher [authority figure] challenge it politely. If uou are asked to accept it "for the moment" then fo do and wait for further information or explanation. There was no internet back in the 60s! I suggest the Internet might be slowly eroding the whole concept of authority in many fields. But, so easy to come to wrong conclusions without a great deal of care.
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Davin

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Re: Alternative Facts
« Reply #43 on: January 27, 2017, 03:01:42 PM »
I like, "think for yourself, question authority." But then a lot of people that also like that tend to not listen to the answers to the questions. Asking questions isn't very useful if you never get any answers and less so if you ignore the answers. Of course I'm not good at this. Obviously.

Also useful to be able to differentiate between false/irrelevant answers and true/relevant. Hmm, how fo you judge the veracity of the answer unless it is either obviously logically correct or blindingly wrong? Nuance is a dicey thing here.

Authority does not always equate accuracy.
If the answer is coming from a real authority (as opposed to a fraud), then that authority will have more than, "because I said so." And authority on the subject should be able to back their shit up to the point that you do not need to trust them because you will then have the facts.

I'll go for "genuine authority" rather than "real authority", just feels better. ;)

"Authority" is too often used as a "rank" rather than a "qualification", the little old illiterate lady down the road might be an "authority" in growing some exotic plant, say. I wonder how may authorities have proved to be wrong by history?

I used to tell my nieces and nephews, "If you have trouble understanfing or accepting something a teacher [authority figure] challenge it politely. If uou are asked to accept it "for the moment" then fo do and wait for further information or explanation. There was no internet back in the 60s! I suggest the Internet might be slowly eroding the whole concept of authority in many fields. But, so easy to come to wrong conclusions without a great deal of care.
The authority problem is pretty bad I think. It doesn't make sense to me that people are trying to say that the appeal to authority doesn't apply if the authority is speaking about their field of study, and while I agree you might want to just trust them in immediate danger types of situations, but after and when you do have time, you don't just trust an authority.

There are situations where you can simply "accept" something, but put it into the unconfirmed box until you get a better answer. The internet has the possibility to fix the problem of ignorance, but with all the algorithms designed to be tailored to the people, it's not helping. Because they go, "I see you like unsubstantiated rumors being peddled as facts as long as they are anti-women, racist... etc. so here's a bunch more like it!"

Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.