Author Topic: Ivory Towers And The New Dark Ages  (Read 783 times)

Davin

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Re: Ivory Towers And The New Dark Ages
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2017, 08:07:02 AM »
^ It looks like in opposition to Trump going full on anti-science, that the UK has decided to increase scientific spending. Someone has to see that science has always paid back on investments. Maybe not every individual  investment, but overall.

Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Dave

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Re: Ivory Towers And The New Dark Ages
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2017, 09:01:16 AM »
^ It looks like in opposition to Trump going full on anti-science, that the UK has decided to increase scientific spending. Someone has to see that science has always paid back on investments. Maybe not every individual  investment, but overall.

I remember the Brain Drain of the 60s when many of the best of Britains young scientists and engineers left, mainly for America (still got a "I was a Brain Drain reject" button somewhere.)

I sincerely hope the government is going to increase funding, Brexit is going to make our participation in some important projects, some based in Britain, a bit more complex.

A few years ago a whole bunch of people, myself included, paid for copies of "Geek manifesto" to be sent to each of our 600 odd MPs. Unfortunately the organisers failed to fully capitalise on any publicity.

My MP did not even bother to acknowledge receipt.

Our banks are stuffed with money they can't loan, pity they have a bean counter mentality with little vision. Like dragons curled around mounds of glitter that they have no real use for, other than satisfying their own acquisitive instincts.
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xSilverPhinx

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Re: Ivory Towers And The New Dark Ages
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2017, 02:34:41 PM »
I think it's important to note that whilst the middle or dark ages were occurring in Europe much progress and advanced study was going on in many other places of the world, such as Asia, the middle east, the Americas, Africa, etc...

In some places scientific progress and productivity soared, I mean think about the amazing cavalry sculptures and funerary traditions of the Northern Wei dynasty in Northern China, along with the many inventions such as paper that was invented in China,  the intricate stonework being done by the Recuay of highland Peru, or the Mayan kingdom and it's splendid cities of Mexico and Central America.

There was a thriving trade in the Indian ocean all the way from Egypt to Korea and Japan, and in New Zealand the Maori culture was being to diverge from it's Polynesian roots.

In the middle east the poets, scientists and philosophers were writing thousands of books and translating other works from different languages, their inventors were coming up with items like the pinhole camera, soap, windmills, surgical instruments, even an early flying machine along, with the system of numerals that we use today.

Of course some of these cultures died away, even experienced their own dark-ages of sorts, but their contributions were many and lasting.

:smilenod: I'd imagine a lot was happening in the world back then. I don't know about you but the history we studied in high school was very eurocentric and local; none of those facts were mentioned, unfortunately.
I'm just a student of the game that they taught me.


Dave

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Re: Ivory Towers And The New Dark Ages
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2017, 11:04:52 PM »
I think it's important to note that whilst the middle or dark ages were occurring in Europe much progress and advanced study was going on in many other places of the world, such as Asia, the middle east, the Americas, Africa, etc...

In some places scientific progress and productivity soared, I mean think about the amazing cavalry sculptures and funerary traditions of the Northern Wei dynasty in Northern China, along with the many inventions such as paper that was invented in China,  the intricate stonework being done by the Recuay of highland Peru, or the Mayan kingdom and it's splendid cities of Mexico and Central America.

There was a thriving trade in the Indian ocean all the way from Egypt to Korea and Japan, and in New Zealand the Maori culture was being to diverge from it's Polynesian roots.

In the middle east the poets, scientists and philosophers were writing thousands of books and translating other works from different languages, their inventors were coming up with items like the pinhole camera, soap, windmills, surgical instruments, even an early flying machine along, with the system of numerals that we use today.

Of course some of these cultures died away, even experienced their own dark-ages of sorts, but their contributions were many and lasting.

:smilenod: I'd imagine a lot was happening in the world back then. I don't know about you but the history we studied in high school was very eurocentric and local; none of those facts were mentioned, unfortunately.
Most of the history I learned was from close re-writes of the Victorian view of it. Thus "Brittocentric" or "Anglocentric".

Often find that my "knowledge" has been corrected years ago.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.

xSilverPhinx

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Re: Ivory Towers And The New Dark Ages
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2017, 06:05:01 AM »
I think it's important to note that whilst the middle or dark ages were occurring in Europe much progress and advanced study was going on in many other places of the world, such as Asia, the middle east, the Americas, Africa, etc...

In some places scientific progress and productivity soared, I mean think about the amazing cavalry sculptures and funerary traditions of the Northern Wei dynasty in Northern China, along with the many inventions such as paper that was invented in China,  the intricate stonework being done by the Recuay of highland Peru, or the Mayan kingdom and it's splendid cities of Mexico and Central America.

There was a thriving trade in the Indian ocean all the way from Egypt to Korea and Japan, and in New Zealand the Maori culture was being to diverge from it's Polynesian roots.

In the middle east the poets, scientists and philosophers were writing thousands of books and translating other works from different languages, their inventors were coming up with items like the pinhole camera, soap, windmills, surgical instruments, even an early flying machine along, with the system of numerals that we use today.

Of course some of these cultures died away, even experienced their own dark-ages of sorts, but their contributions were many and lasting.

:smilenod: I'd imagine a lot was happening in the world back then. I don't know about you but the history we studied in high school was very eurocentric and local; none of those facts were mentioned, unfortunately.
Most of the history I learned was from close re-writes of the Victorian view of it. Thus "Brittocentric" or "Anglocentric".

Often find that my "knowledge" has been corrected years ago.

Such as what, for instance?  :chin:
I'm just a student of the game that they taught me.


Dave

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Re: Ivory Towers And The New Dark Ages
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2017, 06:12:36 AM »
I think it's important to note that whilst the middle or dark ages were occurring in Europe much progress and advanced study was going on in many other places of the world, such as Asia, the middle east, the Americas, Africa, etc...

In some places scientific progress and productivity soared, I mean think about the amazing cavalry sculptures and funerary traditions of the Northern Wei dynasty in Northern China, along with the many inventions such as paper that was invented in China,  the intricate stonework being done by the Recuay of highland Peru, or the Mayan kingdom and it's splendid cities of Mexico and Central America.

There was a thriving trade in the Indian ocean all the way from Egypt to Korea and Japan, and in New Zealand the Maori culture was being to diverge from it's Polynesian roots.

In the middle east the poets, scientists and philosophers were writing thousands of books and translating other works from different languages, their inventors were coming up with items like the pinhole camera, soap, windmills, surgical instruments, even an early flying machine along, with the system of numerals that we use today.

Of course some of these cultures died away, even experienced their own dark-ages of sorts, but their contributions were many and lasting.

:smilenod: I'd imagine a lot was happening in the world back then. I don't know about you but the history we studied in high school was very eurocentric and local; none of those facts were mentioned, unfortunately.
Most of the history I learned was from close re-writes of the Victorian view of it. Thus "Brittocentric" or "Anglocentric".

Often find that my "knowledge" has been corrected years ago.

Such as what, for instance?  :chin:
Nothing recently that I can put a finger on, mostly general stuff about, say, life in Anglo-Saxon England. Other things came up in conversations with my archaeologist friend.

The Victorians were good at glossing things to fit their gung ho, jingoistic view of the world. It has been a theme in comedy ever since.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.

Icarus

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Re: Ivory Towers And The New Dark Ages
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2017, 08:37:06 PM »
The facts are that we have mountains of  information that we do not know how to process with any certainty.

I am deep into a book about this subject. The title is: Enough Said. The author is Mark Thompson, president and CEO of the New York Times Company. Thompson is an academic of considerable merit,  Oxford graduate and more. His position is persuasive. It is that language matters and it shapes the way we believe.  One of the sub chapters of the book is titled: It is not what you say, it's what they hear.  A whole industry is built around that concept.  Advertising........Political parties are now shrewd enough to hire advertising agencies, psychologists, and whomever they can use to cause their language and outward behavior to be most influential. Salesmanship is king.

 Juicy rumors and/or conspiracy theories are gobbled up by the somewhat less  sophisticated,.......In 2019 the ACA (Obamacare) was just being launched.   The former lieutenant governor of New York , Betsy McCaughey, added her two cents to hottest topic of the summer. That would be Obamas plan to reform Americas health care system.  Here is what Mc Caughey said on Fred Thompsons radio show.July 16, 2009.    " One of the most shocking things I found in this bill, and there were many, is on page 425, where the congress would make it mandatory....that every five years, people in Medicare have a required counseling session that will tell them, how to end their life sooner, how to decline nutrition, how to decline being hydrated, how to go into hospice care.....these are such sacred issues of life and death. Government should have nothing to do with this."

That woman has a PHD from Columbia and has the impressive legitimate title of Doctor.  The fact of the matter is that Doctor McCaughey lied through her teeth and no such text is present in the ACA bill.  Not long after her bald faced lie, the tale was picked up by none other than Sarah Palin who is not famous for her thorough understanding of the law or of the printed word.  Palin, the "bulldog with lipstick" used the phrase "Death Panel" to reinforce the egregious McCaughey lie.  That offensive lie and the subsequent pair of words, Death panel. was widely taken up and  believed by perfectly innocent citizens all across the country.  So much for Obama care. Torpedoed by a falsehood that got some wildfire publicity.

Words matter. This is a whole new world where we can get news or presumed information within a heart beat. There is plenty of opportunity for purveyors of the information or the news to mold the language to agree with their own persuasion. How we get our information is not particularly important but whether we can place our confidence in the information is in serious question.

I recommend the book to thinkers like so many of my fellow HAFers.   




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Re: Ivory Towers And The New Dark Ages
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2017, 11:38:34 PM »
The facts are that we have mountains of  information that we do not know how to process with any certainty.

I am deep into a book about this subject. The title is: Enough Said. The author is Mark Thompson, president and CEO of the New York Times Company. Thompson is an academic of considerable merit,  Oxford graduate and more. His position is persuasive. It is that language matters and it shapes the way we believe.  One of the sub chapters of the book is titled: It is not what you say, it's what they hear.  A whole industry is built around that concept.  Advertising........Political parties are now shrewd enough to hire advertising agencies, psychologists, and whomever they can use to cause their language and outward behavior to be most influential. Salesmanship is king.

 Juicy rumors and/or conspiracy theories are gobbled up by the somewhat less  sophisticated,.......In 2019 the ACA (Obamacare) was just being launched.   The former lieutenant governor of New York , Betsy McCaughey, added her two cents to hottest topic of the summer. That would be Obamas plan to reform Americas health care system.  Here is what Mc Caughey said on Fred Thompsons radio show.July 16, 2009.    " One of the most shocking things I found in this bill, and there were many, is on page 425, where the congress would make it mandatory....that every five years, people in Medicare have a required counseling session that will tell them, how to end their life sooner, how to decline nutrition, how to decline being hydrated, how to go into hospice care.....these are such sacred issues of life and death. Government should have nothing to do with this."

That woman has a PHD from Columbia and has the impressive legitimate title of Doctor.  The fact of the matter is that Doctor McCaughey lied through her teeth and no such text is present in the ACA bill.  Not long after her bald faced lie, the tale was picked up by none other than Sarah Palin who is not famous for her thorough understanding of the law or of the printed word.  Palin, the "bulldog with lipstick" used the phrase "Death Panel" to reinforce the egregious McCaughey lie.  That offensive lie and the subsequent pair of words, Death panel. was widely taken up and  believed by perfectly innocent citizens all across the country.  So much for Obama care. Torpedoed by a falsehood that got some wildfire publicity.

Words matter. This is a whole new world where we can get news or presumed information within a heart beat. There is plenty of opportunity for purveyors of the information or the news to mold the language to agree with their own persuasion. How we get our information is not particularly important but whether we can place our confidence in the information is in serious question.

I recommend the book to thinkers like so many of my fellow HAFers.

I might actually get the book because I agree with it's premise. I have always wanted to take that premise and turn it into an argument to some extent but I don't have enough context in which to do that. Maybe that book can help me on the journey.
But, uh...well there it is.
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Dave

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Re: Ivory Towers And The New Dark Ages
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2017, 01:38:51 AM »

The facts are that we have mountains of  information that we do not know how to process with any certainty.

I am deep into a book about this subject. The title is: Enough Said. The author is Mark Thompson, president and CEO of the New York Times Company. Thompson is an academic of considerable merit,  Oxford graduate and more. His position is persuasive. It is that language matters and it shapes the way we believe.  One of the sub chapters of the book is titled: It is not what you say, it's what they hear.  A whole industry is built around that concept.  Advertising........Political parties are now shrewd enough to hire advertising agencies, psychologists, and whomever they can use to cause their language and outward behavior to be most influential. Salesmanship is king.

[ . . . ]

Words matter. This is a whole new world where we can get news or presumed information within a heart beat. There is plenty of opportunity for purveyors of the information or the news to mold the language to agree with their own persuasion. How we get our information is not particularly important but whether we can place our confidence in the information is in serious question.

I recommend the book to thinkers like so many of my fellow HAFers.

YES, YES, YES!

Learn how your "audience" hears and the battle is won. The growth of non-critical thinking is frightening. Or is it really a growth? Mob's have been stirred (and fooled) by language since it developed probably. Usual case - larger populations, greater access to public forums (via Internet) for almost anyone with an agenda, greater, or at least more publicised, effect? Add in exaggeration,  selective reporting, fact reversal . . .

Politicians, diplomats and other marketing types are well versed in these arts.

[Hmm, think I'll wait til the ebook version comes out . . .]
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xSilverPhinx

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Re: Ivory Towers And The New Dark Ages
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2017, 04:20:29 PM »
The facts are that we have mountains of  information that we do not know how to process with any certainty.

I am deep into a book about this subject. The title is: Enough Said. The author is Mark Thompson, president and CEO of the New York Times Company. Thompson is an academic of considerable merit,  Oxford graduate and more. His position is persuasive. It is that language matters and it shapes the way we believe.  One of the sub chapters of the book is titled: It is not what you say, it's what they hear.  A whole industry is built around that concept.  Advertising........Political parties are now shrewd enough to hire advertising agencies, psychologists, and whomever they can use to cause their language and outward behavior to be most influential. Salesmanship is king.

 Juicy rumors and/or conspiracy theories are gobbled up by the somewhat less  sophisticated,.......In 2019 the ACA (Obamacare) was just being launched.   The former lieutenant governor of New York , Betsy McCaughey, added her two cents to hottest topic of the summer. That would be Obamas plan to reform Americas health care system.  Here is what Mc Caughey said on Fred Thompsons radio show.July 16, 2009.    " One of the most shocking things I found in this bill, and there were many, is on page 425, where the congress would make it mandatory....that every five years, people in Medicare have a required counseling session that will tell them, how to end their life sooner, how to decline nutrition, how to decline being hydrated, how to go into hospice care.....these are such sacred issues of life and death. Government should have nothing to do with this."

That woman has a PHD from Columbia and has the impressive legitimate title of Doctor.  The fact of the matter is that Doctor McCaughey lied through her teeth and no such text is present in the ACA bill.  Not long after her bald faced lie, the tale was picked up by none other than Sarah Palin who is not famous for her thorough understanding of the law or of the printed word.  Palin, the "bulldog with lipstick" used the phrase "Death Panel" to reinforce the egregious McCaughey lie.  That offensive lie and the subsequent pair of words, Death panel. was widely taken up and  believed by perfectly innocent citizens all across the country.  So much for Obama care. Torpedoed by a falsehood that got some wildfire publicity.

Words matter. This is a whole new world where we can get news or presumed information within a heart beat. There is plenty of opportunity for purveyors of the information or the news to mold the language to agree with their own persuasion. How we get our information is not particularly important but whether we can place our confidence in the information is in serious question.

I recommend the book to thinkers like so many of my fellow HAFers.

I've been thinking a lot about this.
I'm just a student of the game that they taught me.