Author Topic: Evidence for God  (Read 1677 times)

Bob

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Evidence for God
« on: January 17, 2017, 06:18:28 AM »
Hello, all.

This post is for the purpose of addressing some common questions often raised by atheists such as, Who or what is God? Why doesn't God prove his existence to me? Where is the evidence for God's existence?

The Bible is a very good place to provide a good answer.  In fact, one Bible verse covers it very well.  In 21st century English, the passage reads...

"...what may be known about God is clearly evident among them, for God made it clear to them.  For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship,..."  (Romans 1:19, 20).

Thus perception plays a very important part in trying to offer an explanation concerning the Creator.

Many, perhaps most, atheists would accept as proof of the existence of God only evidence they can see, feel, touch and take apart and reassemble in a laboratory setting.  And, of course, that lab would have to be only where they would have unfettered access.

So, let us reason a bit. 

How would I liken the Creator?  Perhaps by looking at the problem in reverse.  Let's look at the problem from God's point of view. 

In Isaiah is a fitting description of the problem and with an element of reason comes understanding.

"There is One who dwells above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers...."  Isaiah 40:22

Could you rightly expect a grasshopper to fully explain a human or human accomplishments like the Hubble space telescope?  Or would you be humble enough to learn grasshopper speech and befriend them?  Sounds foolish, correct?  That is the dilemma. 

Further on this line of thought is the difference between humans and chimpanzees is about one percent of DNA.  On that scale what would a creature be like who was one percent greater than humans in their DNA?  If their intellect would follow the same scale, could we ever hope to understand them?  Much less be on par with them?  And yet God is orders of magnitude greater than chimpanzees or grasshopper-like humans.

And here is one item we all see without any understanding.  Something so basic it has no record anywhere in the Bible as having been created.  And that even though many think it is listed among the creations attributed to God.  And what is that?  LIFE.

The Bible tells us this at Psalm 36:9 simply that the 'source of life is God'.  Much has been hypothesized about life.  Some have speculated about life having a chemical nature.  Some have claimed that by assembling certain molecules together they have created life.  But when pressed, they admit they can not and did not create life.  It cannot be disassembled and reassembled.  Some have speculated that life is a form of energy as yet not understood.

And there is God.  If we go back to Romans 1:20 we see it speaks about the creation as giving us insight into God.  So look at the creation.  Focus on Isaiah 40:25, 26.  "To whom can you liken me to make me his equal?” says the Holy One.

26 “Lift up your eyes to heaven and see.  Who has created these things?
It is the One who brings out their army by number; He calls them all by name.
Because of his vast dynamic energy and his awe-inspiring power, Not one of them is missing."

Science today admit every star fulfills a purpose.  Did you know we ourselves are star stuff?  And even the super heavy elements seem to come from the collision of neutron stars. So not even a single star is missing.

Science also tells us eventually the universe itself will run down.  Over 3000 years ago the Psalmist spoke of an immense maintenance project needed to fix the universe itself.  Read for yourself Psalm 102:25-27.  Makes for very interesting reading. 

Oh.  And DNA;  Look at Psalm 139:16.  "Your eyes even saw me as an embryo;  All its parts were written in your book  Regarding the days when they were formed,  Before any of them existed.'  Written more than 3,000 years before we had amassed enough knowledge on our own to understand, how would you explain that passage?

So, for a lowly human to define in human terms a being vastly more complex with knowledge and the ability to make and use forces beyond our comprehension, is at best an exercise in futility. 

But a few things I do know.   The Bible provides compelling evidence that God exists. It encourages us to build faith in God, not by blindly believing religious assertions, but by using our “power of reason” and “mental perception.” 

The existence of an orderly universe containing life points to a Creator.

The Bible says: “Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but the one who constructed all things is God.” (Hebrews 3:4)

Although this logic is simple, many well-educated people find it to be powerful.   For example, the late astronomer Allan Sandage once said regarding the universe: “I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery, but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing.”

Bible writers had scientific knowledge that was beyond the understanding of their contemporaries. For example, in ancient times many peoples believed that the earth was supported by an animal, such as an elephant, a boar, or an ox. In contrast, the Bible says that God is “suspending the earth upon nothing.” (Job 26:7) Similarly, the Bible correctly describes the shape of the earth as a “sphere,” or “globe. or circle  (Isaiah 40:22) Many people feel that the most reasonable explanation for such advanced understanding is that Bible writers received their information from God.

The Bible answers many difficult questions, the type of questions that when not satisfactorily answered can lead a person to atheism. For example: If God is loving and all-powerful, why is there suffering and evil in the world? Why is Religion so often an influence for bad rather than for good?  See  Titus 1:6  Could it be the unsatisfactory answers to questions has caused you to be where you are?

So have I completely answered the questions posed?  Probably not. However, at the same time, I  hope I have raised questions that honest, open-minded individuals will seek answers to.
You can ask me and I promise to try and answer your questions using reason, logic and the Bible. I like a good challenge.

Tank

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Re: Evidence for God
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2017, 07:00:46 AM »
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
“Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.” ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett

Niya

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Re: Evidence for God
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2017, 07:52:00 AM »
Hello, all.

This post is for the purpose of addressing some common questions often raised by atheists such as, Who or what is God? Why doesn't God prove his existence to me? Where is the evidence for God's existence?

The Bible is a very good place to provide a good answer.  In fact, one Bible verse covers it very well.  In 21st century English, the passage reads...

"...what may be known about God is clearly evident among them, for God made it clear to them.  For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship,..."  (Romans 1:19, 20).

Thus perception plays a very important part in trying to offer an explanation concerning the Creator.

Many, perhaps most, atheists would accept as proof of the existence of God only evidence they can see, feel, touch and take apart and reassemble in a laboratory setting.  And, of course, that lab would have to be only where they would have unfettered access.

So, let us reason a bit. 

How would I liken the Creator?  Perhaps by looking at the problem in reverse.  Let's look at the problem from God's point of view. 

In Isaiah is a fitting description of the problem and with an element of reason comes understanding.

"There is One who dwells above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers...."  Isaiah 40:22

Could you rightly expect a grasshopper to fully explain a human or human accomplishments like the Hubble space telescope?  Or would you be humble enough to learn grasshopper speech and befriend them?  Sounds foolish, correct?  That is the dilemma. 

Further on this line of thought is the difference between humans and chimpanzees is about one percent of DNA.  On that scale what would a creature be like who was one percent greater than humans in their DNA?  If their intellect would follow the same scale, could we ever hope to understand them?  Much less be on par with them?  And yet God is orders of magnitude greater than chimpanzees or grasshopper-like humans.

And here is one item we all see without any understanding.  Something so basic it has no record anywhere in the Bible as having been created.  And that even though many think it is listed among the creations attributed to God.  And what is that?  LIFE.

The Bible tells us this at Psalm 36:9 simply that the 'source of life is God'.  Much has been hypothesized about life.  Some have speculated about life having a chemical nature.  Some have claimed that by assembling certain molecules together they have created life.  But when pressed, they admit they can not and did not create life.  It cannot be disassembled and reassembled.  Some have speculated that life is a form of energy as yet not understood.

And there is God.  If we go back to Romans 1:20 we see it speaks about the creation as giving us insight into God.  So look at the creation.  Focus on Isaiah 40:25, 26.  "To whom can you liken me to make me his equal?” says the Holy One.

26 “Lift up your eyes to heaven and see.  Who has created these things?
It is the One who brings out their army by number; He calls them all by name.
Because of his vast dynamic energy and his awe-inspiring power, Not one of them is missing."

Science today admit every star fulfills a purpose.  Did you know we ourselves are star stuff?  And even the super heavy elements seem to come from the collision of neutron stars. So not even a single star is missing.

Science also tells us eventually the universe itself will run down.  Over 3000 years ago the Psalmist spoke of an immense maintenance project needed to fix the universe itself.  Read for yourself Psalm 102:25-27.  Makes for very interesting reading. 

Oh.  And DNA;  Look at Psalm 139:16.  "Your eyes even saw me as an embryo;  All its parts were written in your book  Regarding the days when they were formed,  Before any of them existed.'  Written more than 3,000 years before we had amassed enough knowledge on our own to understand, how would you explain that passage?

So, for a lowly human to define in human terms a being vastly more complex with knowledge and the ability to make and use forces beyond our comprehension, is at best an exercise in futility. 

But a few things I do know.   The Bible provides compelling evidence that God exists. It encourages us to build faith in God, not by blindly believing religious assertions, but by using our “power of reason” and “mental perception.” 

The existence of an orderly universe containing life points to a Creator.

The Bible says: “Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but the one who constructed all things is God.” (Hebrews 3:4)

Although this logic is simple, many well-educated people find it to be powerful.   For example, the late astronomer Allan Sandage once said regarding the universe: “I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery, but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing.”

Bible writers had scientific knowledge that was beyond the understanding of their contemporaries. For example, in ancient times many peoples believed that the earth was supported by an animal, such as an elephant, a boar, or an ox. In contrast, the Bible says that God is “suspending the earth upon nothing.” (Job 26:7) Similarly, the Bible correctly describes the shape of the earth as a “sphere,” or “globe. or circle  (Isaiah 40:22) Many people feel that the most reasonable explanation for such advanced understanding is that Bible writers received their information from God.

The Bible answers many difficult questions, the type of questions that when not satisfactorily answered can lead a person to atheism. For example: If God is loving and all-powerful, why is there suffering and evil in the world? Why is Religion so often an influence for bad rather than for good?  See  Titus 1:6  Could it be the unsatisfactory answers to questions has caused you to be where you are?

So have I completely answered the questions posed?  Probably not. However, at the same time, I  hope I have raised questions that honest, open-minded individuals will seek answers to.
You can ask me and I promise to try and answer your questions using reason, logic and the Bible. I like a good challenge.

There is no order in the universe Bob...what are you talking about?
Not that anyone cares what I say, but the Restaurant is on the other end of the universe.” –Marvin
-----
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Tank

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Re: Evidence for God
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2017, 08:14:52 AM »
Hello, all.

This post is for the purpose of addressing some common questions often raised by atheists such as, Who or what is God? Why doesn't God prove his existence to me? Where is the evidence for God's existence?
Having met many more atheists than you I have yet to see one ask 'Who or what is God?'. The reason that atheists don't ask this question is because they are atheists. Atheists have already reached the point of understanding that there is no god. God is a legacy fantasy of our, understandingly, ignorant ancestors. We don't expect god to prove his existence because we understand there is no god. One key reason atheists reach the conclusion there is no god is because there is no evidence for the existence of a supernatural realm nor that any part of that realm is sentient nor concerned with an ape on a ball of rock in the middle nowhere. 
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
“Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.” ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett

Tank

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Re: Evidence for God
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2017, 08:28:56 AM »
...
The Bible is a very good place to provide a good answer.  In fact, one Bible verse covers it very well.  In 21st century English, the passage reads...

"...what may be known about God is clearly evident among them, for God made it clear to them.  For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship,..."  (Romans 1:19, 20).

Thus perception plays a very important part in trying to offer an explanation concerning the Creator.


The Bible, or for that matter any holy book, is the very worst place to start to find any answer about a particular unsupported assertion about an alleged supernatural realm or deity. Holy books are propaganda to support an assertion and thus cannot be expected, nor trusted, to be objective about the subject matter they contain. As a holy book is propaganda any assertion therein can be dismissed if there is no objective external verifiable evidence to support it.

""...what may be known about God is clearly evident among them, for God made it clear to them." No. There is nothing 'clearly evident', if there were there would be one religion and we'd all follow it. There are thousands of gods worshipped by billions of people. There is no evidence that nay of them exist let alone one specific one.

"invisible qualities are clearly seen" really? If they are invisible they cannot be seen. That's what invisible means. Obviously the person who wrote this was functionally illiterate.

"Thus perception plays a very important part in trying to offer an explanation concerning the Creator." on this we can agree. Perception can often bear no relationship to reality and this is the case with superstitions and myths in general, they are reality free zones. Perceptions are also inculcated by upbringing and culture. It's no surprise that Christian parents have Christian children or that Muslim parents have Muslim children. The children's perceptions have be shaped by there experiences while growing up. Humans are at base learning machines. They hover up all that is around them while they are growing up the have been shaped by evolution to do so.

I will continue later. I have work to do now.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
“Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.” ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett

Dave

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Re: Evidence for God
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2017, 09:01:21 AM »
Oh dear, another prosetylising sermoniser with nothing new.

Yawn.

Goodbye, Bob.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.

Tank

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Re: Evidence for God
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2017, 10:36:20 AM »
Oh dear, another prosetylising sermoniser with nothing new.

Yawn.

Goodbye, Bob.
Oh come on you can do better than that.
And I don't mean be rude.
Sharpen your anti-theism skills.
Consider Bob a learning opportunity!
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
“Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.” ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett

Dave

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Re: Evidence for God
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2017, 12:11:26 PM »
Oh dear, another prosetylising sermoniser with nothing new.

Yawn.

Goodbye, Bob.
Oh come on you can do better than that.
And I don't mean be rude.
Sharpen your anti-theism skills.
Consider Bob a learning opportunity!

No offence taken, Tank.

Lost count of the number of, pointless, "lessons" that I have fruitlessly argued through over the past ten years.

I ain't gonna "convert", chances that Bob will are pretty slim - why waste energy and time?

Now, if there seemed to be the chance that Bob might seek to counter any argument without resorting to the bible and his faith . . . But I would guess that he has only those in his armoury, when I have only rationality (well, a ration if it), evidence or a lack thereof, experience . . .

Tempered by the background feeling that arguing the existence or non-existence of the supernatural are equally futile without evidence either way. Is that teapot out there or not? I have no real idea of the nature of ultimate reality, merely a model of existence that satifies my experience, understanding and ethics. I would not dream of pushing it at another without a specific request.

But, yes, it would be better to simply not comment rather than be negative but I am only human after all, foibled like all others.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.

Tank

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Re: Evidence for God
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2017, 01:32:15 PM »
...

No offence taken, Tank.

...
Glad to here it. I meant don't you be rude to Bob!  :mb lol:
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
“Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.” ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett

Tank

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Re: Evidence for God
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2017, 01:37:55 PM »
Oh dear, another prosetylising sermoniser with nothing new.

Yawn.

Goodbye, Bob.
Oh come on you can do better than that.
And I don't mean be rude.
Sharpen your anti-theism skills.
Consider Bob a learning opportunity!

No offence taken, Tank.

Lost count of the number of, pointless, "lessons" that I have fruitlessly argued through over the past ten years.

I ain't gonna "convert", chances that Bob will are pretty slim - why waste energy and time?

Now, if there seemed to be the chance that Bob might seek to counter any argument without resorting to the bible and his faith . . . But I would guess that he has only those in his armoury, when I have only rationality (well, a ration if it), evidence or a lack thereof, experience . . .

Tempered by the background feeling that arguing the existence or non-existence of the supernatural are equally futile without evidence either way. Is that teapot out there or not? I have no real idea of the nature of ultimate reality, merely a model of existence that satifies my experience, understanding and ethics. I would not dream of pushing it at another without a specific request.

But, yes, it would be better to simply not comment rather than be negative but I am only human after all, foibled like all others.

I agree the chances of changing Bob's mind are probably so close to zero it makes no odds what we say to him. He's obviously here to preach and witness and quite possibly may never post again. He's not here to join in or be part of the community. So changing his mind is not the point. The point is to demonstrate the futility of his position to other people who read but never post. The activity equips the 'lurker' with the tools and confidence they may need to deal with other people who share Bob's world view.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
“Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.” ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett

Davin

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Re: Evidence for God
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2017, 01:57:22 PM »
Hello, all.

This post is for the purpose of addressing some common questions often raised by atheists such as, Who or what is God? Why doesn't God prove his existence to me? Where is the evidence for God's existence?

The Bible is a very good place to provide a good answer.  In fact, one Bible verse covers it very well.  In 21st century English, the passage reads...
Hi, bob,

How's it going? I see that you're talking like you're an authority on the matter of god. So I will assume that you are an authority on the subject. Because you are an authority, you should be able to answer these questions directly, clearly, and with the support of reliable and verifiable evidence.

What makes what you are claiming about god correct? Keep in mind that we're not on your side of the fence, so what you say must be applied consistently to other people who have made claims about god as well as to what you say.

Why would we trust the bible instead of other books like Dianetics? I mean, to us, on this side of the theistic fence, it all looks like the ramblings of people who didn't know anything about what the real world is like.

How many atheists have you met? Because it looks like, by your straw men, that you don't understand what atheists are actually saying.

Well, that's a start. I hope you get back to me, Bob.

Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

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Re: Evidence for God
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2017, 01:58:11 PM »
I guess I have to agree with the OP, there certainly is a whole lot of evidence for god out there.

Here:
Spoiler: show
o convince the most intelligent beings on this Planet that there is a God and that He does exist, scientific evidence supporting this fact has to be brought to the discussion. 

The Holy Quran (pronounced in two separate syllables Qur - an) is full of such evidence. Actually, the Islamic Holy Book can be broadly divided into two parts. The first involves the scientific evidence that its ultimate author is the Creator of life Himself, in order to convince humans that He exists and that the Holy Quran is His message to humanity.  The second part involves His teachings, the Shari'a, which if followed by humans will lead them to happiness in this life and in the everlasting Hereafter. 

The story of life on Planet Earth, including human life, is told in the Holy Quran in a way that would light up the eyes of scientists if they read it. It’s the same story, which is told to students of biology. It leaves no doubt about the fact that life started in a very simple way a long time ago and kept evolving ever since (See: Creation and Evolution in the Holy Qur'an).   

The scientific story of creation of life is just one example of how the Holy Quran convinces its readers that no human on this Planet could have authored this Book. Many of the scientific facts revealed became known only in the last century or so. The Messenger of God, Prophet Muhammed (Peace and blessings of God be upon him) was an illiterate man. It was impossible for him or for any other human being 1428 years ago to know about such facts.   

Examples of Verses Including Scientific Facts Just Explained or Discovered Recently

Some of the Quran verses explain facts about Earth, humans, and other creatures.

1. For example,  in Verse 55: 33, there is an invitation for humans to fly, indicating the possibility of flying, more than 1428 years ago.

 يَا مَعْشَرَ الْجِنِّ وَالْإِنسِ إِنِ اسْتَطَعْتُمْ أَن تَنفُذُوا مِنْ أَقْطَارِ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ فَانفُذُوا ۚ لَا تَنفُذُونَ إِلَّا بِسُلْطَانٍ (الرحمن ، 55: 33) 

O You jinn and men, if you can penetrate zones of the heavens and the Earth, then penetrate! You will never penetrate them except with power (Al-Ra'hman, 55: 33).

2. The Holy Quran tells us that there is intelligent life in outer space, where Allah (Praise to Him) is also worshipped and glorified.

وَلَهُ ۥ مَن فِى ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٲتِ وَٱلأرۡضِ‌ۖ ڪُلٌّ۬ لَّهُ ۥ قَـٰنِتُونَ (الروم ، 30: 26).

To Him belongs whom are in the heavens and the Earth, all are devoutly obedient to Him (Al-Room, 30: 26).

In Verse 3: 83, Allah, praise to Him, also tells us about life in outer space saying:

أفَغَيۡرَ دِينِ ٱللَّهِ يَبۡغُونَ وَلَهُ ۥۤ أَسۡلَمَ مَن فِى ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٲتِ وَٱلأرۡضِ طَوۡعً۬ا وَڪَرۡهً۬ا وَإِلَيۡهِ يُرۡجَعُونَ (آل عمران ، 3: 83).

Do they want other than the Religion of Allah? While (all) who are in the heavens and the Earth have willingly, or unwillingly, submitted to Him (as Muslims do), and to Him shall they be returned (Al-Imran, 3: 83).

إِن كُلُّ مَن فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ إِلَّا آتِي الرَّحْمَـٰنِ عَبْدًا

    لَّقَدْ أَحْصَاهُمْ وَعَدَّهُمْ عَدًّا

وَكُلُّهُمْ آتِيهِ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ فَرْدًا (مريم ، 19: 93-95).



And here:
Spoiler: show
READ THE POST TILL THE END TO CHANGE YOUR PERCEPTION WITH KNOWLEDGE OF TRUTH..OR PERISH / WANDER IN OBLIVION..

 

“ALL CREATION IS GOVEREND BY LAW"

 

The ones which manifest in the outer universe discoverable by Physical scientists are called Natural Laws. But there are subtler laws ruling the Realms of Consciousness / Quantum World which can be known only through the Inner Science of Yoga (sensory to super sensory). The Hidden planes also have their Natural and Lawful principles of operation.

 

It is not the Physical Scientist but the fully Self-Realized Master, a YOGI who comprehends the true Nature of matter and Quantum World without the need of Technology!

 

LIFE Is fundamentally Electromagnetic then Bio Chemical
 Matter is crystallized Light. Life is Light in Motion. Mind is Light that perceives, yet Consciousness is the Supreme Light Beyond and Behind ALL
You can't observe the Quantum World or could Transcend the Senses and Limitation of SPACE-TIME without activating your Pineal gland -- the other 5 senses have too narrow bandwidths.

 

Scalar waves(superpower) that travel faster then speed of Light can be generated by resonating your DNA with your Pineal Gland.

 

The psychedelic journeys are accessed and experienced within the realms of the pineal gland. The Pineal Gland is the Shiva Lingam (which provides the seed of life, soul-seed (DNA) within which lies the essence of the entire Cosmos)


DNA - Tvasta, the double helix coiled serpents which cannot be destroyed- is mentioned in Rig Veda

 

- HENCE..

YOGI see's BEYOND where your Ordinary Sense Perception ENDS !! UPGRADE YOUR DNA


Here as well:

Spoiler: show
UPANISHADS:

The Upanishads are considered sacred scriptures by the Hindus.

The following verses from the Upanishads refer to the Concept of God:

"Ekam evadvitiyam"
"He is One only without a second."
        [Chandogya Upanishad 6:2:1]1

"Na casya kascij janita na cadhipah."
"Of Him there are neither parents nor lord."
         [Svetasvatara Upanishad 6:9]2

"Na tasya pratima asti"
"There is no likeness of Him."
        [Svetasvatara Upanishad 4:19]3

The following verses from the Upanishad allude to the inability of man to imagine God in a particular form:

"Na samdrse tisthati rupam asya, na caksusa pasyati kas canainam."

"His form is not to be seen; no one sees Him with the eye."
        [Svetasvatara Upanishad 4:20]4


I guess this here:
Spoiler: show
Sikhism
Guru Nanak describes the attributes of God in the prayer, Japji: "There is but one God. His name is True and Everlasting. He is the Creator, Fearless and without Enmity, the Timeless Form, Unborn and Self-existing."
Sikhism rejects the theory of incarnation. God does not take birth. He is self-existent and not subject to time; He is eternal; He can be realized through (His own grace or) the teachings of a spiritual guide or Guru, but such a guide must be perfect.

Sikhism believes in a personal God. The devotee is compared to a bride yearning for union with her husband and waiting on his pleasure to do his bidding.

The Gurus have called God by different names-Ram, Rahim, Allah, Pritam, Yar, Mahakal. There is no such thing as a God of the Hindus or a God of the Muslims. There is the "Only One God" who is a presence, and is called Waheguru by the Sikhs (wonderful enlightener and wonderful Lord).

Is God transcendal or immanent? He is both. He is present in all things and yet they do not cover His limitless expanse. When God is seen through the universe, we think of him as Sargun(Quality-ful); when we realize His transcendence, we think of Him as Nirgun(Abstract). Truely speaking, God is both in and above the universe. God is the Whole and the world a part of that Whole.

A complete knowledge of God is impossible. Guru Nanak says, "Only one who is as great as He, can know Him fully." We can only have some glimpses of Him from His works. The universe is His sport in which He takes delight. The world is a play of the Infinite in the field of the finite.

By His order, all forms and creatures came into existence. It is the duty of man to study the laws of the universe and to realize the greatness and glory of the Supreme Being. He has created an infinite number of worlds and constellations. The world in which we live is a small atom as compared to other worlds. Scientists like James Jeans, Hoyle and Narlikar have confirmed this theory.


And finally of course here:

Spoiler: show
The Universal Pokémon:

Arceus: The creator of the universe; created Dialga, Palkia and Giratina, as well as Uxie, Mesprit, Azelf, and, supposedly, the entire Pokémon world. Capable of manipulating the cosmos.
Dialga: The Pokémon which began the flow of time in Sinnoh-region mythology. Possesses the ability to manipulate time.
Palkia: The Pokémon which began the expansion of space in Sinnoh-region mythology. Possesses the ability to manipulate physical reality.
Giratina: The Pokémon which created dimension to make things tangible and interactive. Possesses the ability to warp the dimensions. It has two forms; Altered Form (introduced in Diamond and Pearl), and Origin Form (introduced in Platinum), . The creators have described Giratina and its home world as being personifications of antimatter.
Uxie: The "Being of Knowledge"; gave beings the gift of intelligence. Possesses the ability to wipe away memories from any living being, but this only happens if it opens its eyes.
Mesprit: The "Being of Emotion"; gave beings the gift of emotion. Possesses the ability to remove emotions from any living being, rendering them zombielike.
Azelf: The "Being of Willpower"; gave beings gift of willpower. Possesses the ability to petrify any living being.
The Tao trio:
Reshiram: Dragon of fire. Represents yang.
Zekrom: Dragon of lighting. Represents yin.
Kyurem: Dragon of ice. Represents wuji.
The Legendary Birds, or the Winged Mirages:
Articuno: Legendary bird of ice.
Zapdos: Legendary bird of lightning.
Moltres: Legendary bird of fire.
Lugia: Guardian of the Sea, and protector of the winged mirages.
The Legendary Beasts:
Raikou: the embodiment of thunder. .
Entei: the embodiment of volcanoes.
Suicune: the embodiment of the north wind. Mascot of Pokémon Crystal.
Ho-Oh: Guardian of the Sky, and protector of the legendary beasts.
The Geographic Pokémon:
Kyogre: The creator of the sea. Opposes Groudon.
Groudon: The creator of the land. Opposes Kyogre.
Rayquaza: Makes its home in the ozone layer, and is the only one who can quell Groudon and Kyogre.
The Legendary Golems:
Regirock: A golem composed of a conglomerate of rocks.
Regice: A golem composed of frigid ice.
Registeel: A golem composed of an unknown metal.
Regigigas: The creator of the other golems, a colossal being able to pull whole continents with ropes.
The Lunar Pokémon:
Cresselia: Benevolent symbol of the moon and guardian of dreams, and counterpart of Darkrai. It has the power to dispel nightmares, and is the Sandman of the Pokémon universe.
Darkrai: Malevolent symbol of darkness and oblivion and counterpart of Cresselia. It has the power to induce and trap people in nightmares, and is most active during the new moon.
The Kami Pokémon:
Tornadus: Fūjin, Japanese god of wind.
Thundurus: Raijin, Japanese god of thunder and lightning.
Landorus: Inari Ōkami, Japanese fertility god.
The Lati Twins:
Latias and Latios: Twin dragons that guard Altomare, a city modeled after Venice, Italy. Generally friendly to humans (at least those they trust), and capable of understanding human speech. Latias is female, whereas Latios is male.
The Kalos Trio:
Xerneas: The Legendary Deer of Life. It can bestow eternal life when the horns on its head glow seven different colors. It is also a benevolent force in nature, as it can create forests at will. It is the counterpart to Yveltal.
Yveltal: The Legendary Bird of Destruction. It can absorb life energy whenever it spreads its appendages, from whomever it pleases. It is the counterpart to Xerneas.
Zygarde: The Legendary Snake of Order. It is able to take many different forms. These forms are the Cell Form, which, as their name implies, are simply the cells of the creature, Core Form, the mind of Zygarde and monitor of the ecosystem, Zygarde 10% Form, a fast doglike creature, Zygarde 50% Form, who, unlike its Core Form, will actually do something about any danger the environment falls into, and, finally, Zygarde Complete Form, appearing only when the situation is too dire for any other form to stop. In its 50% form, it can also cancel out Xerneas' and Yveltal's special ability to enhance certain attacks.
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Or. Carlos, depending on who's available.

I really, really hate anti-semantics.

Asmodean

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Re: Evidence for God
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2017, 02:40:10 PM »
The Asmo will come to play, will He not? Or is He too busy driving diesel-powered vehicles through the no-diesel zone?

...He wonders...  :???:

EDIT: Yep. He shalt play.

Hello, all.

This post is for the purpose of addressing some common questions often raised by atheists such as, Who or what is God? Why doesn't God prove his existence to me? Where is the evidence for God's existence?
Except for the last one, I doubt these are common questions atheists ask. "Who is god" is invalid, since gods are not whos, they are whats. Mythical beings. We don't need to ask about that. "Why doesn't God prove his existence to me" is irrelevant. If such beings existed, I would not expect them to prove anything to me, nor would most serious people regardless of their religious affiliation, I think. The third question starts off on the wrong foot. I don't care where the evidence is - it can be in the pope's ass for my part; I care what it is. That aside, and as implied before, yes, many atheists do ask one version of that third question or another when debating theists.

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The Bible is a very good place to provide a good answer.  In fact, one Bible verse covers it very well.  In 21st century English, the passage reads...
The Bible?! It doesn't even make for good toilet paper. It's a rather poorly made piece of ancient fiction. To expect it to provide any sort of answer pertaining to reality is foolish. It can indeed be interesting for a variety of cultural and/or literary reasons, but not as a tool in understanding the Universe.

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Thus perception plays a very important part in trying to offer an explanation concerning the Creator.
This alone should be enough for most people to put the idea of real gods in a trash bin.

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Many, perhaps most, atheists would accept as proof of the existence of God only evidence they can see, feel, touch and take apart and reassemble in a laboratory setting.  And, of course, that lab would have to be only where they would have unfettered access.
Sorry, but this is just bullshit. Seeing (/hearing/feeling/touching) is believing will get you a fail in your quantum mechanics course. Observation is an important part of science, but the Universe does not conform to the senses of creatures who evolved on a tiny planet in an unremarkable solar system on the outskirts of a galaxy just like billions of other galaxies.

Human senses, you say? Do visualise a five-dimensional space for me, will you? Too hard? How about two-dimensional? (No, not as a sheet of paper floating in three dimensions - that's not what I'm asking here) How about just visualising space-time then?

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So, let us reason a bit.

An exercise in logic, then? I can't fly. A rock can't fly. Therefore, I am a rock.

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How would I liken the Creator?  Perhaps by looking at the problem in reverse.  Let's look at the problem from God's point of view.
Weeell... That assumes gods. In fact, that assumes one specific god. Are you allowed to do that in this thought experiment? 

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Could you rightly expect a grasshopper to fully explain a human or human accomplishments like the Hubble space telescope?  Or would you be humble enough to learn grasshopper speech and befriend them?  Sounds foolish, correct?  That is the dilemma.

What is the dilemma, exactly? Also, the point and relevance of the above? You do realize that a creature's nervous system needs to be of a certain complexity to understand things?

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Further on this line of thought is the difference between humans and chimpanzees is about one percent of DNA.  On that scale what would a creature be like who was one percent greater than humans in their DNA?  If their intellect would follow the same scale, could we ever hope to understand them?  Much less be on par with them?  And yet God is orders of magnitude greater than chimpanzees or grasshopper-like humans.
Ah! Well... Yes. You see, you started off so well with a truly fascinating question, and then you went off and ruined it. Yes, of course we would be able to understand them. They would be physical systems just like we and the chimps are. If you are talking about their motives, which I suspect you are, then the answer is simply irrelevant to their existence or the lack thereof.

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And here is one item we all see without any understanding.  Something so basic it has no record anywhere in the Bible as having been created.  And that even though many think it is listed among the creations attributed to God.  And what is that?  LIFE.
Without any what now? We have gathered VAST knowledge about life, if I understand your point correctly. To say we have no understanding of it is ignorant at best. We do, it is of high quality and constantly improving.

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Science today admit every star fulfills a purpose.  Did you know we ourselves are star stuff?  And even the super heavy elements seem to come from the collision of neutron stars. So not even a single star is missing.
Nono, TV-scientists deliberately misuse the word "purpose" and then beat themselves up about it because the dumber sort of gentleman never fails to take that word and put it out of context and blow its meaning out of proportion. The stars have no sentient actor purpose. However, in order for us to exist, generations of stars before us had to explode. They did not explode so that we could exist, but we do exist because they exploded. (Note that this is a shameless simplification of a star's life cycle. There are reasons leading to those cosmic explosions and yes, we understand those too. They more or less boil down to gravity and nuclear fusion)

...Why do I get the feeling that you've been watching Nova, but doing it poorly? If you are indeed interested in understanding the life cycle of stars, I can post a fine wall of text about it, or recommend some nicely popularised TV shows.

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Science also tells us eventually the universe itself will run down.  Over 3000 years ago the Psalmist spoke of an immense maintenance project needed to fix the universe itself.  Read for yourself Psalm 102:25-27.  Makes for very interesting reading.

No, it will not run down. The prevalent hypothesis of today is heat death, I believe? It has to do with entropy. That one is pretty much the reason why time appears only ever to move in one direction. In heat death, the Universe will get continually less ordered until the concept of time becomes irrelevant and the Universe is static and... Cold.

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Oh.  And DNA;  Look at Psalm 139:16.  "Your eyes even saw me as an embryo;  All its parts were written in your book  Regarding the days when they were formed,  Before any of them existed.'  Written more than 3,000 years before we had amassed enough knowledge on our own to understand, how would you explain that passage?
Sigh... You are quoting people who had NO understanding of molecular biology why..? To try and impress me with the knowledge they did not possess?

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So, for a lowly human to define in human terms a being vastly more complex with knowledge and the ability to make and use forces beyond our comprehension, is at best an exercise in futility. 
Bullshit. I already gave you a reason or two for why it's bullshit, so do let us move on.

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But a few things I do know.   The Bible provides compelling evidence that God exists. It encourages us to build faith in God, not by blindly believing religious assertions, but by using our “power of reason” and “mental perception.”
 
It's not compelling and it's not evidence in the sense in which you want to use the word here. Furthermore, it's not at all encouraging. It's more full of nasty than a bad horror movie.

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The existence of an orderly universe containing life points to a Creator.
No. Again, if you asked "So why is the Universe orderly then?" then we could have a nice discussion with me telling you about entropy and the Big Bang and the different forces at play and you telling me about Jesus and how gays are abominations unto the LORD, but... You didn't, so we won't.

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Although this logic is simple, many well-educated people find it to be powerful.   For example, the late astronomer Allan Sandage once said regarding the universe: “I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery, but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing.”
Appeals to authority mean little to me. I will say no more, although I'm tempted. You see, my work day is over and I'm going home.

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Bible writers had scientific knowledge that was beyond the understanding of their contemporaries. For example, in ancient times many peoples believed that the earth was supported by an animal, such as an elephant, a boar, or an ox. In contrast, the Bible says that God is “suspending the earth upon nothing.” (Job 26:7) Similarly, the Bible correctly describes the shape of the earth as a “sphere,” or “globe. or circle  (Isaiah 40:22) Many people feel that the most reasonable explanation for such advanced understanding is that Bible writers received their information from God.
Appeals to stupidity of others and the ancient so-called "wisdom" mean even less to me than the above.

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The Bible answers many difficult questions, the type of questions that when not satisfactorily answered can lead a person to atheism. For example: If God is loving and all-powerful, why is there suffering and evil in the world? Why is Religion so often an influence for bad rather than for good?  See  Titus 1:6  Could it be the unsatisfactory answers to questions has caused you to be where you are?
I was bloody well born an Atheist. Being born and staying alive until this very moment is what caused me to be what I am.

So yeah... There you go. One atheist's perspective, which I expect is shared by quite a few. If you are game, I'm game. After I get my ass home, though.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 03:51:57 PM by Asmodean »
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xSilverPhinx

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Re: Evidence for God
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2017, 02:56:01 PM »
Bob, Bob, Bob, we do I start, Bob?

On second thought, maybe not today. :notsure:
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Recusant

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Re: Evidence for God
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2017, 04:40:05 PM »
Hello and welcome to HAF, Bob. There are plenty of issues and failures in your post, but I'll just look at one, for the moment.

Let's look at the problem from God's point of view.

The Bible in several places explicitly says that humans are incapable of understanding your god. See Romans 11 ("How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?") and Job 36 ("How great is God—beyond our understanding!"), for instance. You're teaching a falsehood above, because the Bible says that no human is capable of adopting your god's point of view. You yourself say that your god is far beyond human understanding. Yet you tell us we can look at a problem from your god's point of view. Why are you trying to confuse us, Bob?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 04:53:29 PM by Recusant »
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
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