Author Topic: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?  (Read 7834 times)

Dragonia

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Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
« Reply #75 on: March 01, 2017, 03:02:59 PM »
Dredge ... your responses are quite unsatisfactory to me.
No kidding!  In that case, I won't waste any more time addressing your other queries, although I will make the point that your "wife = rape her repeatedly until she gives up" theory is not found in the Bible but is pure invention on your part (you probably got this idea from some poisonous feminist literature).

 You also need to distinguish between what God commanded and what some Hebrews did of their own accord.  For example, after the events described in Judges 21, we read, "In those days ...  every man did what seemed right in his own eyes."

You opinion of the God of the Bible seems unbalanced.   There is a lot more to this God than just being a Destroyer of the wicked.

----------------------------

Perhaps you think I have been a Catholic all my life and have never bothered to question my faith.  No; I was not always a Christian ... but then I saw the Light.
I didn't assume you could come up with many more excuses for God, and that's ok, whatever your reason. Because we both know there's really no defense for the behaviors in these passages of scripture.
As far as this  "wife = rape her repeatedly until she gives up" theory is not found in the Bible but is pure invention on your part (you probably got this idea from some poisonous feminist literature). goes, can we discuss this for a minute?  First, I don't ever read feminist lit. I am not really a feminist like the idea that most people associate with feminism. I am a humanist, which just means that I believe in kindness to others, doing things for the good of others, and people have value just because they are people.
So, Dredge, do you have children? A sister? A close female friend? Can you imagine with me for a second the scene from Numbers 21, an army comes in to your city of ........ let's say 150,000 people. They go through your town slaughtering all the men, but saving the women and children. There is blood and fighting and screaming and crying. It is a day from hell. So your daughter and sister and mother and little brother are herded to the enemy leader, some of them are still sobbing, some are in shock. But some are glad at least that their mother or their children have been left alive. But wait, the leader gets pissed about something, and orders everyone but the virgin girls killed. So the terror and horror starts again, as the mothers and sons are all slashed and brutally murdered. And this time it's a slaughter, because they're all together.
There was no pretty way to kill a person back then. No kool-aid, no gas, no pills. It was pretty much by the sword. So your virgin daughter is the only one left alive after all of this. I just think of my girl.... can you imagine being forcefully given to one of the enemy men to be his "wife"? Do you think these girls will ever willingly submit to having sex with their new "husbands"? I don't think so. So my theory is maybe based on my imagination, but not feminist literature. If you think about it for a minute, any rational person would see that I'm probably not too far off base.
As far as this:You opinion of the God of the Bible seems unbalanced.   There is a lot more to this God than just being a Destroyer of the wicked., You are right, there is much more to it. But there's SO much destruction, and legalism and fear,  that if it was real, the sweet, saving, love parts would be called into question, and such dire doubts would be cast over the whole picture, that it would be hard to blind myself to the bad stuff. So yes, you are totally right that my view of this God is unbalanced, because this God seems quite unbalanced.
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. ~ Plato (?)

Recusant

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Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
« Reply #76 on: March 01, 2017, 04:33:28 PM »
Any miracles approved by the Church are not the work of charlatans.

It must be very comforting for you to believe that.
And what do you know about how the Church goes about accepting a miracle?  I suspect ... nothing at all.  You get your "information" from atheists and other assorted enemies of the Church, who don't know what they're talking about either.  Or you see charlatans like Benny Hinn in action and presume that all other Christians operate likewise.  So you speak from a position of rank ignorance, rendering your opinions on the matter worthless.

Your conjecture regarding me is inaccurate. I was raised as a Roman Catholic. I went to a Catholic school run by the Sisters of St. Mary for eight years, and a Catholic high school run by the De La Salle Brothers as well. Though I stopped believing in the Christian myth when I was 11 years old, I got top marks in Religion class throughout my time in Catholic schools. I served as an altar boy for four years. I'm thoroughly educated in Catholic doctrine, tradition, and practices, and know the procedure by which the church goes about certifying miracles. In addition I've independently studied the history of the Catholic church for many years. My thoughts on the Catholic church come from anything but "rank ignorance."
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Dragonia

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Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
« Reply #77 on: March 01, 2017, 06:22:10 PM »
^^^
*BAM*
In yo' face!
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. ~ Plato (?)

Tank

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Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
« Reply #78 on: March 01, 2017, 09:13:45 PM »
Any miracles approved by the Church are not the work of charlatans.

It must be very comforting for you to believe that.
And what do you know about how the Church goes about accepting a miracle?  I suspect ... nothing at all.  You get your "information" from atheists and other assorted enemies of the Church, who don't know what they're talking about either.  Or you see charlatans like Benny Hinn in action and presume that all other Christians operate likewise.  So you speak from a position of rank ignorance, rendering your opinions on the matter worthless.

Your conjecture regarding me is inaccurate. I was raised as a Roman Catholic. I went to a Catholic school run by the Sisters of St. Mary for eight years, and a Catholic high school run by the De La Salle Brothers as well. Though I stopped believing in the Christian myth when I was 11 years old, I got top marks in Religion class throughout my time in Catholic schools. I served as an altar boy for four years. I'm thoroughly educated in Catholic doctrine, tradition, and practices, and know the procedure by which the church goes about certifying miracles. In addition I've independently studied the history of the Catholic church for many years. My thoughts on the Catholic church come from anything but "rank ignorance."

Well said sir.
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Magdalena

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Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
« Reply #79 on: March 01, 2017, 09:24:11 PM »


I always thought that this part of the movie meant exactly what you mean.
:snicker:

Magdalena

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Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
« Reply #80 on: March 01, 2017, 09:27:29 PM »
Your conjecture regarding me is inaccurate. I was raised as a Roman Catholic. I went to a Catholic school run by the Sisters of St. Mary for eight years, and a Catholic high school run by the De La Salle Brothers as well. Though I stopped believing in the Christian myth when I was 11 years old, I got top marks in Religion class throughout my time in Catholic schools. I served as an altar boy for four years. I'm thoroughly educated in Catholic doctrine, tradition, and practices, and know the procedure by which the church goes about certifying miracles. In addition I've independently studied the history of the Catholic church for many years. My thoughts on the Catholic church come from anything but "rank ignorance."
I didn't know all this...Wow! Thank you for sharing it with us. :chin:

Dredge

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Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
« Reply #81 on: March 16, 2017, 05:35:47 AM »
Dredge ... your responses are quite unsatisfactory to me.
No kidding!  In that case, I won't waste any more time addressing your other queries, although I will make the point that your "wife = rape her repeatedly until she gives up" theory is not found in the Bible but is pure invention on your part (you probably got this idea from some poisonous feminist literature).

 You also need to distinguish between what God commanded and what some Hebrews did of their own accord.  For example, after the events described in Judges 21, we read, "In those days ...  every man did what seemed right in his own eyes."

You opinion of the God of the Bible seems unbalanced.   There is a lot more to this God than just being a Destroyer of the wicked.

----------------------------

Perhaps you think I have been a Catholic all my life and have never bothered to question my faith.  No; I was not always a Christian ... but then I saw the Light.
I didn't assume you could come up with many more excuses for God, and that's ok, whatever your reason. Because we both know there's really no defense for the behaviors in these passages of scripture.
You're right; I doubt if any human could come up with a defence for such deeds.  Maybe Yahweh knows something that we don't.

Follow the evidence wherever it leads.

Dredge

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Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
« Reply #82 on: March 16, 2017, 05:41:19 AM »
I can't stand whenever someone justifies evil. I've seen Trump and Christians do this all the time. Trump will justify things such as rape and racism, while Christians justify things such as murder of babies and cannibalism.

Can you cite an example of 1) a Christian justifying the murder of babies; and 2) of cannibalism, please?

"Slaughter of the Canaanites" | Reasonable Faith
The slaughter of every Canaanite may have something to do with God's wish to wipe out the Nephilim that were present in that race.
I know this isn't exactly along the lines of this thread,  but I have to answer Dredge.... I can't stop myself...
This is an explanation (a bad one--pure guesswork)  that I don't think I've heard before. And I've heard a lot of explanations.
I'd like to hear your creative excuses for other annihilations in the OT. Hey! I know! We can play a game! I like games.
How about I'll give you a few Bible events and you tell me another explanation for them. After all, this explanation of yours was cool.  So here we go.......

*Numbers 31:7-18   God orders all Midianites killed, except virgin girls and girl children (those were reserved for the Israelite men-- a little feisty reward for their hard work of war)
*Deuteronomy 3  God's people wiped out 60 whole cities and villages, men women and children. But they got to keep the livestock and plunder. (Score!) Then they divided the land up between them.
*Joshua 6    The Israelites destroyed the entire city of Jericho: men, women, children and livestock too! (Joshua fought the battle of Jericho, Jericho,  Jericho....... and the walls came tumbling down!)
*Judges 21    11 of the 12 tribes of Israel murdered everyone in Jabesh Gilead (their own people!) Except the virgins again.... because they needed wives for one of their tribes. Oh! But there weren't enough virgins for all the men, so the men were ordered to hide alongside the road, and when they saw a girl who was pleasing to their eye, they ambushed her and carried her away to another city to make her his "wife". (AKA rape her repeatedly until she gave up). Chivalry wasn't their strong point.....
Ok, just one more, I have to stop somewhere.....
*1 Samuel 15    God orders the slaughter of the Amalekites-  men, women, children, and animals (I guess none of them needed wives this time)
OK Dredge, ask the Holy Spirit to give you fresh insight and knock my socks off!

According to your belief system, all life is the result of evolution, a process which is blind, mindless and without plan or purpose.  All life is a collection of atoms that just happened to form biological machines.  A human life therefore has no more meaning than the life of a flea, or a rat, or an amoeba - or a rock, for that matter.
 The meaningless universe (ie, a meaningless bunch of atoms) wouldn't care if every baby is murdered and the human race consequently ceased to exist.   No life at all needs to exist ... nothing needs to exist - not even atoms.  

Since this is your belief system, how did you come to the conclusion that it is immoral to murder babies?   Your God of Nothingness doesn't care about the life of babies or what is moral or immoral, right or wrong, good or evil, so why should you?   In fact, your belief system says there is no way of knowing what is morally right or wrong.
Consider the case of Adolf Hitler, who murdered 6 million Jews - men, women and children.  Which law passed down by your meaningless universe says that what he did was immoral? 

You have somehow convinced yourself that right and wrong exist, despite the fact that your belief system says they don't.  Therefore, what you think of as "morality" is no more than a delusion ... that is ultimately produced by an arrangement of the meaningless atoms that make up your brain.  In other words ... your life, your thoughts, your beliefs, your morality and your deeds are all meaningless.


Furthermore, on what basis are your personal standards of morality superior to anyone else's standards of morality?  I put it to you that you have no basis at all on which you can claim morality superiority over anyone else.   So by what authority can you sit in judgement on someone else ... Yahweh, for example?  
Follow the evidence wherever it leads.

Recusant

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Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
« Reply #83 on: March 16, 2017, 10:39:41 AM »
Apparently the Holy Ghost didn't feel like dealing with those stories of holy bloodthirst.
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
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Pasta Chick

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Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
« Reply #84 on: March 16, 2017, 01:53:30 PM »
Only someone utterly lacking in empathy could be having a hard time with this.


Dragonia

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Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
« Reply #85 on: March 16, 2017, 02:23:40 PM »
Oh Dredge, I wish we could have a conversation in person instead of this way... it would be much more productive. But allow me to address many of your points, for there are many. And please bear with me, because this may take a bit.
According to your belief system, all life is the result of evolution, a process which is blind, mindless and without plan or purpose.  All life is a collection of atoms that just happened to form biological machines.  A human life therefore has no more meaning than the life of a flea, or a rat, or an amoeba - or a rock, for that matter.
 The meaningless universe (ie, a meaningless bunch of atoms) wouldn't care if every baby is murdered and the human race consequently ceased to exist.   No life at all needs to exist ... nothing needs to exist - not even atoms. 
Well.... yes. Technically you're correct. Human life has no meaning to the "Universe" because the universe has no consciousness. We humans are the ones who assign meaning to life, or to the universe, or to the sickness that caused your uncle to stay home from work in NYC on 9-11-01(hypothetical). We assign meaning and it's a very subjective process.
Since this is your belief system, how did you come to the conclusion that it is immoral to murder babies?
You are assuming that you understand my belief system... I'm pretty sure you don't, because you can't at this point in your life.
But my beliefs about what's good and bad come from a rational consideration of the consequences of my actions. And we all have some kind of internal compass that does this. Most of us are stuck living in community with others, and we can see that we don't want others killing our babies, so we don't kill others' babies, and it seems good to all of us that we should not allow the killing of babies, so we make it a law. It's quite elementary and I always wonder why this needs explanation.
Do you realize that every society has limits, laws, prohibitions and punishments, whether they follow God or not? Christianity, and more broadly, God, is NOT necessary to point us in a "moral" direction. We decide what kind of society we want to live in and then makes laws and punishments appropriately.
   Your God of Nothingness doesn't care about the life of babies or what is moral or immoral, right or wrong, good or evil, so why should you?
Ummmm, I don't really have a God of Nothingness...... I don't think there's such a god.
Consider the case of Adolf Hitler, who murdered 6 million Jews - men, women and children.  Which law passed down by your meaningless universe says that what he did was immoral?
Yeaaaahhh...... I don't really have a meaningless universe either. And I'm pretty sure there are no laws being passed down by any universes. As far as the immoral part, please see my comment above.
You have somehow convinced yourself that right and wrong exist, despite the fact that your belief system says they don't.  Therefore, what you think of as "morality" is no more than a delusion ... that is ultimately produced by an arrangement of the meaningless atoms that make up your brain.  In other words ... your life, your thoughts, your beliefs, your morality and your deeds are all meaningless.
Actually, what you think of as morality is no more than a delusion, taken from a book that you have to pick and choose what parts to live and which parts are terrible and archaic and bad for peaceful societies.
My morality and my deeds are given meaning by me. When I go pull weeds in my garden or read a book to my kids or help a person in the parking lot, the universe doesn't care. A god  doesn't care. But I do, and that's what makes these things worth doing and my life worth living. My life isn't meaningless, because it's meaningful to me. Not in a cosmic sense, just to those around me. And it's the same with everyone. It's actually a beautiful, freeing concept. We can create our own meaning in this short life. I will cease to exist someday, thus ending my meaning, and that's ok with me, because I am going to make my time a happy stretch.  ;D
Furthermore, on what basis are your personal standards of morality superior to anyone else's standards of morality?  I put it to you that you have no basis at all on which you can claim morality superiority over anyone else.   So by what authority can you sit in judgement on someone else ... Yahweh, for example? 
I don't know if I would say that I have "moral superiority" over anyone, including an imaginary God. I do, however, feel disgust and revulsion about certain things, again, stemming from what I think about what I would like done (or not done) to me and what I think is good for society in general.
You may be interested that our world today is demonstrating that the more atheist a nation becomes, the lower their crime rates are, the lower the teen pregnancy rates are, the happier the people are... the list goes on. Societies are better all-around when you take the Bible Baggage away.
http://www.alternet.org/8-countries-where-atheism-accepted-even-celebrated-instead-demonized
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-secular-life/201410/secular-societies-fare-better-religious-societies
There are many many articles on this, but here are 2. I think it's very telling.

Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. ~ Plato (?)

Arturo

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Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
« Reply #86 on: March 16, 2017, 03:04:48 PM »
Something I'm noticing about dredge, is when he engages with someone, he often puts out a claim about that person. Which I discussed in my video, a claim: has no evidence supporting itself. It's like Donald Trump claiming his phones were wire tapped or that the earth is flat or that Satan is real. There is no reason to believe anything he says.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 09:48:14 PM by Arturo »

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Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
« Reply #87 on: March 16, 2017, 03:38:32 PM »
Dredge ... your responses are quite unsatisfactory to me.
No kidding!  In that case, I won't waste any more time addressing your other queries, although I will make the point that your "wife = rape her repeatedly until she gives up" theory is not found in the Bible but is pure invention on your part (you probably got this idea from some poisonous feminist literature).

 You also need to distinguish between what God commanded and what some Hebrews did of their own accord.  For example, after the events described in Judges 21, we read, "In those days ...  every man did what seemed right in his own eyes."

You opinion of the God of the Bible seems unbalanced.   There is a lot more to this God than just being a Destroyer of the wicked.

----------------------------

Perhaps you think I have been a Catholic all my life and have never bothered to question my faith.  No; I was not always a Christian ... but then I saw the Light.

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And in the centre of every cherry is a poisonous  pit . . .
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Dragonia

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Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
« Reply #88 on: March 16, 2017, 03:42:07 PM »
Something I'm noticing about dredge, is when he engages with someone, he often puts out a claim about that person. Which I discussed in my video has no evidence supporting itself. It's like Donald Trump claiming his phones were wire tapped or that the earth is flat or that Satan is real. There is no reason to believe anything he says.
Part of that is human nature, to throw assumptions and opinions around like facts. But part of it stems from the certainty of a Christian that they know the underlying motivations and hearts of people. Because the Bible tells them, and because the Holy Spirit is whispering to them in their hearts. We know it's arrogant, presumptive Bullshit,  but they don't see it that way. I remember feeling like I knew a person better than they knew themselves because I had the 'inside story" from the Bible. Which is now shameful to me, but probably most Christians have some nuance of this same outlook.
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. ~ Plato (?)

Arturo

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Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
« Reply #89 on: March 16, 2017, 09:57:27 PM »
Something I'm noticing about dredge, is when he engages with someone, he often puts out a claim about that person. Which I discussed in my video has no evidence supporting itself. It's like Donald Trump claiming his phones were wire tapped or that the earth is flat or that Satan is real. There is no reason to believe anything he says.
Part of that is human nature, to throw assumptions and opinions around like facts. But part of it stems from the certainty of a Christian that they know the underlying motivations and hearts of people. Because the Bible tells them, and because the Holy Spirit is whispering to them in their hearts. We know it's arrogant, presumptive Bullshit,  but they don't see it that way. I remember feeling like I knew a person better than they knew themselves because I had the 'inside story" from the Bible. Which is now shameful to me, but probably most Christians have some nuance of this same outlook.

At some point, I was there too. Not because I read the Bible, but because I thought I could read people. And I based these assumptions on my past experiences and analysis of the current situation. But one day I met someone who I couldn't read, yet thought I could and it blew up in my face. I have also met people who think they know the value of someone's argument because they look at it at face value.

All these things have in common is that they don't dive deeper than what they think they already know. It's when I learned active listening that I really began to understand people. People contradict themselves but they have reasons connecting the ideas that you won't get unless you know how to listen properly. And when someone points out those contradictions as being bad than that's when a person develops a bad attitude. They don't like being told they are wrong because they aren't wrong but people like one dimensional characters. Too much TV will do that.

Sorry went off on a tangent.

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