Author Topic: Help me understand...  (Read 1783 times)

Steeler

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Re: Help me understand...
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2016, 02:02:31 PM »
So you're saying the 2nd only applies to protecting the state? I shouldn't be able to use said firearm for pleasure as well? What about hunting?
Defending my family?
Id rather be equally armed against a hinge intruder, or armed robber. The typically don't use rocks or bats.

Steeler

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Re: Help me understand...
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2016, 02:03:47 PM »
After reading my post, it kind of comes off as me being a smart ass.
I didn't mean it to Asmo.

Dave

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Re: Help me understand...
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2016, 02:48:58 PM »
At the risk of starting another gun debate, was not the second amendment designed to protect the public from the government or some such?

Assuming the army is with the government (or there really is little point, no?), what chance does a rabble of rednecks with guns stand against a few thousand Tomahawk cruise missile?

First off, all gun owners in the US aren't "rednecks".
It wouldn't come to that anyway IMO. Soldiers turning against the people? No chance, at least not from the ones I know, and their buddies.
I don't think cruise missiles would have much effect, unless you are willing to nuke your whole country.

I would to just mention the National Guard at Kent State.

With merely the possibility of guns being around there is always danger from all sides getting finger twitchy.
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Dave

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Re: Help me understand...
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2016, 02:54:22 PM »
So you're saying the 2nd only applies to protecting the state? I shouldn't be able to use said firearm for pleasure as well? What about hunting?
Defending my family?
Id rather be equally armed against a hinge intruder, or armed robber. The typically don't use rocks or bats.

Defending your family from those who have guns to commit crime because guns are comparatively easy to come by?

Or defending your family against neighbours with guns who are defending their family against neighbours with guns . . . . . . . . .
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Ecurb Noselrub

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Re: Help me understand...
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2016, 03:01:31 PM »
There was a general rage against the established order of things.  Hillary represented that, and Trump was the anti-politician.  Therefore, even for all his flaws, people gave him a chance.  Not me, mind you, but over 47% of the populace.  Furthermore, in the past 8 years we have seen big banks being bailed out while the economic system has generally profited no one but the upper 1%.  In addition, for many there is the perception that the character of the nation is changing due to uncontrolled immigration.  Trade deals are sending jobs overseas and not benefitting Americans.  And finally, Hillary called 1/2 of Trump's supporters "deplorable", and her constant e-mail issues undermined trust in her.  I still voted for her because I saw her as better than Trump, but about the same number of people saw it the opposite way.  Hillary, I think, may still win the popular vote, but the Electoral College didn't end up in her favor.  So, there are a lot of folks who just wanted to drain the swamp of Washington, and she was part of the swamp. 

I voted for her, but I understand why many don't like her.

Steeler

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Re: Help me understand...
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2016, 04:10:09 PM »
There was a general rage against the established order of things.  Hillary represented that, and Trump was the anti-politician.  Therefore, even for all his flaws, people gave him a chance.  Not me, mind you, but over 47% of the populace.  Furthermore, in the past 8 years we have seen big banks being bailed out while the economic system has generally profited no one but the upper 1%.  In addition, for many there is the perception that the character of the nation is changing due to uncontrolled immigration.  Trade deals are sending jobs overseas and not benefitting Americans.  And finally, Hillary called 1/2 of Trump's supporters "deplorable", and her constant e-mail issues undermined trust in her.  I still voted for her because I saw her as better than Trump, but about the same number of people saw it the opposite way.  Hillary, I think, may still win the popular vote, but the Electoral College didn't end up in her favor.  So, there are a lot of folks who just wanted to drain the swamp of Washington, and she was part of the swamp. 

I voted for her, but I understand why many don't like her.

Much respect to you Bruce. You get it.

Steeler

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Re: Help me understand...
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2016, 04:11:24 PM »
So you're saying the 2nd only applies to protecting the state? I shouldn't be able to use said firearm for pleasure as well? What about hunting?
Defending my family?
Id rather be equally armed against a hinge intruder, or armed robber. The typically don't use rocks or bats.

Defending your family from those who have guns to commit crime because guns are comparatively easy to come by?

Or defending your family against neighbours with guns who are defending their family against neighbours with guns . . . . . . . . .

The first part, yes. The second, I'm not following you.

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Re: Help me understand...
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2016, 06:18:15 PM »
There was a general rage against the established order of things.  Hillary represented that, and Trump was the anti-politician.  Therefore, even for all his flaws, people gave him a chance.  Not me, mind you, but over 47% of the populace.  Furthermore, in the past 8 years we have seen big banks being bailed out while the economic system has generally profited no one but the upper 1%.  In addition, for many there is the perception that the character of the nation is changing due to uncontrolled immigration.  Trade deals are sending jobs overseas and not benefitting Americans.  And finally, Hillary called 1/2 of Trump's supporters "deplorable", and her constant e-mail issues undermined trust in her.  I still voted for her because I saw her as better than Trump, but about the same number of people saw it the opposite way.  Hillary, I think, may still win the popular vote, but the Electoral College didn't end up in her favor.  So, there are a lot of folks who just wanted to drain the swamp of Washington, and she was part of the swamp. 

I voted for her, but I understand why many don't like her.

Thanks, Bruce. That makes sense.

What doesn't make sense to me is how someone can win the popular vote and not be President, but that's because our systems are so different.
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Ecurb Noselrub

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Re: Help me understand...
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2016, 07:03:36 PM »
There was a general rage against the established order of things.  Hillary represented that, and Trump was the anti-politician.  Therefore, even for all his flaws, people gave him a chance.  Not me, mind you, but over 47% of the populace.  Furthermore, in the past 8 years we have seen big banks being bailed out while the economic system has generally profited no one but the upper 1%.  In addition, for many there is the perception that the character of the nation is changing due to uncontrolled immigration.  Trade deals are sending jobs overseas and not benefitting Americans.  And finally, Hillary called 1/2 of Trump's supporters "deplorable", and her constant e-mail issues undermined trust in her.  I still voted for her because I saw her as better than Trump, but about the same number of people saw it the opposite way.  Hillary, I think, may still win the popular vote, but the Electoral College didn't end up in her favor.  So, there are a lot of folks who just wanted to drain the swamp of Washington, and she was part of the swamp. 

I voted for her, but I understand why many don't like her.

Thanks, Bruce. That makes sense.

What doesn't make sense to me is how someone can win the popular vote and not be President, but that's because our systems are so different.

Well, that's the Electoral College system that we've had since the beginning.  It was a result of a compromise between those who wanted stronger states rights and those who tended toward pure national democracy.  It's just part of our history.  I'm fine if the nation wants to dump the EC and go to pure democracy.  But that's where we are now.  Every nation has its cultural quirks, and this is one of ours.

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Re: Help me understand...
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2016, 07:11:43 PM »
There was a general rage against the established order of things.  Hillary represented that, and Trump was the anti-politician.  Therefore, even for all his flaws, people gave him a chance.  Not me, mind you, but over 47% of the populace.  Furthermore, in the past 8 years we have seen big banks being bailed out while the economic system has generally profited no one but the upper 1%.  In addition, for many there is the perception that the character of the nation is changing due to uncontrolled immigration.  Trade deals are sending jobs overseas and not benefitting Americans.  And finally, Hillary called 1/2 of Trump's supporters "deplorable", and her constant e-mail issues undermined trust in her.  I still voted for her because I saw her as better than Trump, but about the same number of people saw it the opposite way.  Hillary, I think, may still win the popular vote, but the Electoral College didn't end up in her favor.  So, there are a lot of folks who just wanted to drain the swamp of Washington, and she was part of the swamp. 

I voted for her, but I understand why many don't like her.

Thanks, Bruce. That makes sense.

What doesn't make sense to me is how someone can win the popular vote and not be President, but that's because our systems are so different.

We have thus stupid thing called the electoral college. Basically it's the district get colored towards one candidate based on the popular vote in that district. Then who ever wins the most districts becomes president.

The problem though is that it's more symbolic than accurate and that is most people's issue with the system.
But, uh...well there it is.
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Recusant

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Re: Help me understand...
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2016, 08:23:51 PM »
An interview with a sociologist who spent time learning who the Trump voters are, and why they vote the way they do: "What a liberal sociologist learned from spending five years in Trump's America" | Vox
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
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Re: Help me understand...
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2016, 08:24:52 AM »
More on Trump voters from Vox, some of which conflicts with the story above: "Taking Trump voters’ concerns seriously means listening to what they’re actually saying"

Quote
The press has gotten extremely comfortable with describing a Trump electorate that simply doesn’t exist. Cottle describes his supporters as “white voters living on the edges of the economy.” This is, in nearly every particular, wrong.

There is absolutely no evidence that Trump’s supporters, either in the primary or the general election, are disproportionately poor or working class. Exit polling from the primaries found that Trump voters made about as much as Ted Cruz voters, and significantly more than supporters of either Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders. Trump voters, FiveThirtyEight's Nate Silver found, had a median household income of $72,000, a fair bit higher than the $62,000 median household income for non-Hispanic whites in America.

A major study from Gallup's Jonathan Rothwell confirmed this. Trump support was correlated with higher, not lower, income, both among the population as a whole and among white people. Trump supporters were less likely to be unemployed or to have dropped out of the labor force. Areas with more manufacturing, or higher exposure to imports from China, were less likely to think favorably of Trump.

[Continues . . .]

The story doesn't paint a pretty picture.
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Re: Help me understand...
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2016, 09:13:08 AM »
Because shooting is fun, and I believe I should have the right to defend myself and family.

I am a sport shooter in Norway. We have fairly strict gun control, but law abiding citizens can still get their hands on a decent variety of firearms. I currently own several myself.
What I am getting at is that there is a middle way between banning guns completely and having an unrestricted free-for-all like 2nd Amendment Americans seem to want.

Somehow I don't think Trump is going to be that nuanced about it.


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Davin

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Re: Help me understand...
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2016, 09:30:24 AM »
Because shooting is fun, and I believe I should have the right to defend myself and family.

I am a sport shooter in Norway. We have fairly strict gun control, but law abiding citizens can still get their hands on a decent variety of firearms. I currently own several myself.
What I am getting at is that there is a middle way between banning guns completely and having an unrestricted free-for-all like 2nd Amendment Americans seem to want.

Somehow I don't think Trump is going to be that nuanced about it.
The people voting against any 2nd amendment... amendments, are in a large part manipulated through fear tactics, outright lies, and misrepresentations. In larger part, when you talk to them, most of them are reasonable people who also don't want criminals to have guns, and a majority of them support common sense gun regulations... as long as you call it something other than "gun control" and avoid the word "regulation." Which is silly and scary that people's rationality is so easily bypassed by simple manipulation tactics.

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Asmodean

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Re: Help me understand...
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2016, 10:07:21 AM »
After reading my post, it kind of comes off as me being a smart ass.
I didn't mean it to Asmo.
Not a problem at all. Unlike some other well-known orange things, such as... The Sun for example, Asmos are not easily riled by such.  ;)
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