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Go and Make Atheists of All Nations

Started by Sandra Craft, September 08, 2016, 09:15:34 PM

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Sandra Craft

This is an old one from Jon Pavlovitz's blog (Go and make atheists of all nations) but I thought it was interesting.  I was particularly tickled by this observation:

QuoteFor many of us who really love Jesus, the Church is becoming that old, weird uncle who makes us nervous.

For those who don't really love Jesus, too.  I  have an issue with the equating of non-Xtian with atheist, but other than that I think he properly identified the real reason for the growth of the "nones" in America.



Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Recusant

#1
I'll just assume that he knows more about American Christianity than I do. So when he talks about "The Church" I wonder just what he means. There are plenty of types of Christianity in the United States, and I really doubt that all of them fall under his rubric of "The Church." I guess we could rule out Catholics, and perhaps high church style Episcopalians. Probably Mormons, too.

To me it sounds like "The Church" is evangelical Protestants. If so, then yes, I think they're rather divisive, and Pavlovitz's comments paint a pretty accurate picture, but then there has always been that element in evangelical Protestantism in the US, ever since it began.

Maybe the rabid yapping of evangelical Protestants is part of what's driving the growth of "nones" in the US, but I think a lot of that yapping is a reaction to the culture of the US growing away from their comfort zone, which is something they really aren't responsible for.
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Sandra Craft

Quote from: Recusant on September 08, 2016, 09:42:31 PM
I'll just assume that he knows more about American Christianity than I do. So when he talks about "The Church" I wonder just what he means.

Altho I haven't read anywhere that he's specifically stated what he means by "the Church", I'm also assuming it's evangelical Xtians since that's the tradition he came out of.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Old Seer

I will seem quite strange here --but. The world won't be fixed until everyone takes a walk through Atheism. Bear in mind, some here, if not all, may regard us Old Seers as Christians, but not so. We find that what is understood to be Christianity in the world---isn't. Christianity is a whole different mental concept floks aren't aware of, at least that's the way we see it. The closest to Christianity that we can see would be humanism, But, if I were to post on a humanist site that they are delving into Christianity I would get x-ed off the site.
Also be aware that we aren't of any religion, and we are Atheists ourselves. Now, that may seem strange but we don't see any supernatural being running the universe. Christianity is nothing more then what is properly "human" of which the world is not.  So, until the masses get rid of the idea of a superhuman guy nothing is going to change.
The only thing possible the world needs saving from are the ones running it.
Oh lord, save us from those wanting to save us.
I'm not a Theist.

Dave

#4
Quote from: Old Seer on September 10, 2016, 01:22:33 AM
I will seem quite strange here --but. The world won't be fixed until everyone takes a walk through Atheism. Bear in mind, some here, if not all, may regard us Old Seers as Christians, but not so. We find that what is understood to be Christianity in the world---isn't. Christianity is a whole different mental concept floks aren't aware of, at least that's the way we see it. The closest to Christianity that we can see would be humanism, But, if I were to post on a humanist site that they are delving into Christianity I would get x-ed off the site.
Also be aware that we aren't of any religion, and we are Atheists ourselves. Now, that may seem strange but we don't see any supernatural being running the universe. Christianity is nothing more then what is properly "human" of which the world is not.  So, until the masses get rid of the idea of a superhuman guy nothing is going to change.
Hi, Old Seer, as, effectively, a lifetime aspiring humanist I have often noted the similarities between Humanism and the basics of Christian ethics. I have said, on a Humanist forum, that if you strip all the supernatural from  Christianity you have a very acceptable stance for life not totally dissimilar to Humanism. I was not run out on a rail - still there in fact.

Both these systems, and many others, have a version of The Golden Rule in common, either as a complete construction or in component form. Strip out all the arguments about the origin of morals, the after life (or not), and similar philosophical gumph; strip out any reference to the supernatural, and what is left?

Later:

Ah, found it deep in the archive disc. A sort of Venn diagram I made for the above:



Simplistic, the origin of morals and the concept of "afterlife" is ignored, or sunk in the "Supernatural" . The idea was that there are links but these may be evolutionary in origin.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Passed Monday 10th Dec 2018 age 74

Old Seer

Quote from: Gloucester on September 10, 2016, 09:52:12 AM
Quote from: Old Seer on September 10, 2016, 01:22:33 AM
I will seem quite strange here --but. The world won't be fixed until everyone takes a walk through Atheism. Bear in mind, some here, if not all, may regard us Old Seers as Christians, but not so. We find that what is understood to be Christianity in the world---isn't. Christianity is a whole different mental concept floks aren't aware of, at least that's the way we see it. The closest to Christianity that we can see would be humanism, But, if I were to post on a humanist site that they are delving into Christianity I would get x-ed off the site.
Also be aware that we aren't of any religion, and we are Atheists ourselves. Now, that may seem strange but we don't see any supernatural being running the universe. Christianity is nothing more then what is properly "human" of which the world is not.  So, until the masses get rid of the idea of a superhuman guy nothing is going to change.
Hi, Old Seer, as, effectively, a lifetime aspiring humanist I have often noted the similarities between Humanism and the basics of Christian ethics. I have said, on a Humanist forum, that if you strip all the supernatural from  Christianity you have a very acceptable stance for life not totally dissimilar to Humanism. I was not run out on a rail - still there in fact.

Both these systems, and many others, have a version of The Golden Rule in common, either as a complete construction or in component form. Strip out all the arguments about the origin of morals, the after life (or not), and similar philosophical gumph; strip out any reference to the supernatural, and what is left?

Later:

Ah, found it deep in the archive disc. A sort of Venn diagram I made for the above:



Simplistic, the origin of morals and the concept of "afterlife" is ignored, or sunk in the "Supernatural" . The idea was that there are links but these may be evolutionary in origin.
Very good post. I understand you very well. One can ask, how can an Atheist be a Christian. It would be very strange to most Atheists, but, the Old Seers don't see what's in the world as Christianity is actually Christianity. Every one (from our studies we find) has Christianity, it's nothing more then  one's human side opposite one's animal side. The systems of the world don't rely on what's human and mostly on what's animal. We see these two as two different states of mind that make up a person. Christianity is merely choosing one. The reason we Old Seers aren't Christian is because it's impossible to stay with as the world demands the other in order to live here. So, we're waiting for the masses to get the info and make changes. The world won't change until the people demand it, but, they have to understand first. The first thing is for them to understand they've been fooled, and in turn get rid of the idea of a supernatural someone that runs things.
In our conclusions of biblical study of--the book makes no reference to, or establishes any such supernatural being. What the masses have is what someone thinks and what they attached to the book that's not there to fit there own beliefs ( based on European druidism) from the medieval times and the dark ages. The book is a Mideast document not a European. Between those two there is quite a difference in how things are seen, plus, the mentalities are different.
We found that the Jewish religion  has little to do with understanding the book. Their religion is no different than any other, and based on lost knowledge of their ancestors.
What we have here is nothing more the human mind vs the animal mind, when one reasons the difference a choice can be made.
The only thing possible the world needs saving from are the ones running it.
Oh lord, save us from those wanting to save us.
I'm not a Theist.

Dave

Quote from: Old Seer on September 11, 2016, 12:57:28 AM
Very good post. I understand you very well. One can ask, how can an Atheist be a Christian. It would be very strange to most Atheists, but, the Old Seers don't see what's in the world as Christianity is actually Christianity. Every one (from our studies we find) has Christianity, it's nothing more then  one's human side opposite one's animal side. The systems of the world don't rely on what's human and mostly on what's animal. We see these two as two different states of mind that make up a person. Christianity is merely choosing one. The reason we Old Seers aren't Christian is because it's impossible to stay with as the world demands the other in order to live here. So, we're waiting for the masses to get the info and make changes. The world won't change until the people demand it, but, they have to understand first. The first thing is for them to understand they've been fooled, and in turn get rid of the idea of a supernatural someone that runs things.
In our conclusions of biblical study of--the book makes no reference to, or establishes any such supernatural being. What the masses have is what someone thinks and what they attached to the book that's not there to fit there own beliefs ( based on European druidism) from the medieval times and the dark ages. The book is a Mideast document not a European. Between those two there is quite a difference in how things are seen, plus, the mentalities are different.
We found that the Jewish religion  has little to do with understanding the book. Their religion is no different than any other, and based on lost knowledge of their ancestors.
What we have here is nothing more the human mind vs the animal mind, when one reasons the difference a choice can be made.

Since the Jews have spent millenia discussing their holy books, and still are amongst the orthodox at least, one might think their book is very important to them. And it is the orthodox Jewry, the fundamentalists, that causes most of the friction through their influence in the Knesset and commerce. Standard practice for fundamentalists of any stripe. Thus their book reaches into the real world. One might say the active anti-theists are the fundamentalist atheists, though there seem to be few of such.

Mindset is a very interesting thing, how and why does it vary? What influences it, does the mindset influence religion or is it the other way round?  Is mindset a genetic/racial thing? Could you divide the world, geographically, by mindset and would that correspond to the possible quality of life in those regions?

The artist and author, Edith Simon, held that,  ''Language is culture, from which customs spring.'' Hmmm, supposing it is the other way round? Is it environmental? Those who live in lands that have a pleasant and steady climate and are are abundant with food tend to be more laid back and less territorial than those living in harsh environments where every fertile square meter has to be won from nature. Oh, there is always territoriality because all cultures expand their populations and need more room and resources.

Getting far from atheists and religionists (not all religions have a single or even multiple deity)? Not sure that it is, is religion only a veneer, an excuse for actions that humanity would indulge in anyway?  The teachings do tend to form the cultural values, after a few hundred years of being force-fed those values this is to be expected. Most people cannot seriously think for themselves on the sort of matters discussed in forums like this - they need others to guide their thoughts and behaviour. Here, in forums, we can play jigsaw pieces, fit ourselves in wherever there is a match and move on, mostly peacefully, when there is not. Cherry picking has its virtues.

Religion, of any kind, is a prop or a security blanket IMHO.

Now, where does that leave humanists such as I? Humanists, unlike other atheists, believe in a core set of values and gather round them. Is this just a gathering of like mindsets or is it a pseudo-religion as some claim? Frankly I do not care! I call myself a humanist and I do subscribe to those core values because when I saw them they resonated with my own, self-developed, understandings.

Probably rambled way of the line but - it is all grist to the mill!
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Passed Monday 10th Dec 2018 age 74

Old Seer

#7
To get an understanding where we are coming from you have to go  here

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

We've learned when contemplating the book we had to discount the Jewish religion. It's just another religion that solves nothing. The real problems (we've learned) trickles down to the masses religion is religion and governments. We don't find any need for religion.
To explain the Jewish religion from what we found ---simply--there was this guy or people called Adam, Adam (or Adamites) reasoned out certain principles of which later they fell away from. This would br the original religion of the ancient middle east. The Jews have no knowledge ( which the book contains) of what the Adamites knew, and then fashoned their religion on what they thought was correct. Bear in mind now, that's what was fallen away from and forgotten, what Adam (using the singular) knew. We find that Adam didn't have a religion as Adam was a natural person and lived at a time there was no civilizations. What we find is, the Adamites discovered "person" ( I*'m explaining this out of biblical context). What was discovered was the difference between Human mind and animal mind. They chose the human, which in people respective is the same as Christianity. So what Jc represents is the knowledge of Adam, which today is seen as Christianity. The deal with Christianity is- to return to or take on the precepts of Adam- which in this context is what would be considered "properly Human". That means that the worlds idea of human is skewed.
So the closest to it that we find are humanists. But Humanists don't understand civilization and try to ( at least as we see it) attach it to civilization, when as we've found, civilization and human are two different mentalities. Civilization is actually the fall of the Adamites which was done by Nimrod who formed a central government (kingdom) after Noah.
Civilization depends on the animal mind for it's existence, it merely controls animal behavior to keep it less harmful, but still relies on the animal min as it's basic operation means.
Civilization can never change itself and will always find itself in the same problems generation after generation. The animal mind cannot solve the anumal mind, and in trying has to keep the animal mental processes in trying to fix it---which can never happen as it is it's own fault. A fault cannot be fixed with what the fault is.
So, where do hu8manists fit in. I've haven't ever contemplated that, but what I can say is---keep at it, but don't expect it to work as long as civilization is in operation. That,s why we Old Seers aren't Christian--because there's no sense in it if one can't be properly human without interference from--the other.
Christianity in it's true form is not a religion. It's an understanding of "the self", and is about knowing the principals that make up ones person. There's no sense in going to church if you know yourself, a preacher can't do any better then anyone else. So, there are no church buildings, no prayers, no rituals, no Sunday meetings, or any of what religions do to maintain their beliefs. The reason floks go to church is mainly because they don't know themselves so they get caught in a "follow the leader" system that goes no where or solves anything.

While this information can be extracted from the book it has little to do with the Jewish religion. Adam wasn't a Hebrew. The Hebrews formed long after the fall and it's obvious they don't know where they came from. They're still lost just like everyone else. It's the proper understanding of what "Human" is that will do the trick.
Additional-
What this has to do with Atheism--much to our surprise at one time.
Adam technically is a mental state. That is to say, He/They could not possibly believed in a super human somebody, or any Deity, Adam is about the discovery of ones' person only and what makes up a person in mental form. The Adamites discovered something, and weren't told by someone who is supernatural. They figured this out themselves and there's no deities involved.
The term "God" in proper biblical forum is nothing more then what rules. The laws of physics rule the material universe, and the laws of the mental (psychology) rule the mental. Typically, from what we found, the biblical God is "People", because that's the intent of its writers. According to our Psycho Smurfs--every person is a psychological fact. There-fore then, the forces that rule the person/masses equals God.


[Fixed link, and not the way Pahu's links are fixed. - R]
The only thing possible the world needs saving from are the ones running it.
Oh lord, save us from those wanting to save us.
I'm not a Theist.

Dave

You got a surplus e in that link OS, come not co

Reading.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Passed Monday 10th Dec 2018 age 74

Dave

Stopped reading.

OS,  I have seen several groups like yours and have never been seriously imoressed. Far too much to read, set in smaller blocks might be less intimidating. And the brief history is also too long. Reads more like an academic paper than a recruiting or explanatory one. Very off-putting to the lay person.

Sorry, but it is too much for this untutored, pragmatic observer who would prefer to be out there getting his hands dirty rather than his brain stuffed. Yes, I inhabit forums but as a second choice due to ill health, very little talking over the ills of the world here will actually cure any of them.

If you and your group have academic standing I hope you are talking to those who have power, the politicians and the rich. If you are trying to recruit here I wish you luck, some may be willing to read-all-about-it, to work through, but you seriously need some advice on presentation for many types of people not used to the academic style or great paragraph free blocks of text. Very daunting.

Forgive typos, my sight is not that brilliant on this tablet screen.

I wish you well, OS.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Passed Monday 10th Dec 2018 age 74

Recusant

I guess "they" are no longer called "the Smurfs."  :eyebrow:
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Sandra Craft

Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on September 08, 2016, 10:20:56 PM
Quote from: Recusant on September 08, 2016, 09:42:31 PM
I'll just assume that he knows more about American Christianity than I do. So when he talks about "The Church" I wonder just what he means.

Altho I haven't read anywhere that he's specifically stated what he means by "the Church", I'm also assuming it's evangelical Xtians since that's the tradition he came out of.

For those dying of curiosity, Pavlovitz explains what he means by "the Church":  The Bible Never Mentions a Building Called Church.  It's very metaphysical.

And I was wrong about him coming out of the evangelical tradition, he was a Catholic.  Maybe still is, in a sort-of way.  I think I got him confused with atheist blogger Neil Carter, who used to be an evangelical preacher.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Old Seer

Quote from: Gloucester on September 11, 2016, 05:46:26 PM
Stopped reading.

OS,  I have seen several groups like yours and have never been seriously imoressed. Far too much to read, set in smaller blocks might be less intimidating. And the brief history is also too long. Reads more like an academic paper than a recruiting or explanatory one. Very off-putting to the lay person.

Sorry, but it is too much for this untutored, pragmatic observer who would prefer to be out there getting his hands dirty rather than his brain stuffed. Yes, I inhabit forums but as a second choice due to ill health, very little talking over the ills of the world here will actually cure any of them.

If you and your group have academic standing I hope you are talking to those who have power, the politicians and the rich. If you are trying to recruit here I wish you luck, some may be willing to read-all-about-it, to work through, but you seriously need some advice on presentation for many types of people not used to the academic style or great paragraph free blocks of text. Very daunting.

Forgive typos, my sight is not that brilliant on this tablet screen.

I wish you well, OS.
No recruiting here. We don't gather followers. Just relaying info from our studies. It takes a while to really understand all this but it's quite simple.
The only thing possible the world needs saving from are the ones running it.
Oh lord, save us from those wanting to save us.
I'm not a Theist.

Old Seer

Quote from: Recusant on September 11, 2016, 07:44:48 PM
I guess "they" are no longer called "the Smurfs."  :eyebrow:
Well When we decided to put this in public I asked them what my handle should be. It came back---we're turning out to be like a bunch of Old Seers---so Old Seer it was. So, I suppose one could say we're we're Old Smurfy Seers. :)
The only thing possible the world needs saving from are the ones running it.
Oh lord, save us from those wanting to save us.
I'm not a Theist.