Hillary or Bernie

[Bad Penny]

Davin, I think you're over reacting, I don't think Firebird had hostile intent.
Anyway I'm going to bed, no scratching each others eyes out while I'm gone.

[Davin]

If you cannot discuss these things without getting angry, then no worries, have fun.

I was referring to you, not me. I'm not the one who aggressively  responded with  "fuck your condescension".  You want to tell me I'm wrong and why, go right ahead and I'll have a debate, I have no problem being told I'm wrong.

Then I don't understand, I'm not angry not am I likely to get angry. That doesn't mean that I'm going to put up with bullshit.

But if you're going to get this defensive, then forget it.

What do you expect someone to do when attacked?

[Davin]

Davin, I think you're over reacting, I don't think Firebird had hostile intent.
Anyway I'm going to bed, no scratching each others eyes out while I'm gone.

I'm not overreacting, I'm clearly stating the kind of bullshit I'm not going to put up with. It should be an easy thing to have a discussion without being condescending or making irrational assumptions.

[Tank]

Gentlemen. Stop it.

[Claireliontamer]

I think the sentiment of Davin's post is correct, leaving aside the condescending part. 

The two party system is utter crap and it's a shame that people are too scared to veer away from it.  Bernie Sanders is running as a Democrat but from what I understand that's a recent affiliation and in all but the name he's really an independent.  Or he's certainly a huge step in the right direction away from the current Democrat party anyway. 

As for who is more electable polls have shown that both Hillary and Bernie could defeat Trump but only Bernie comes out above the other Republicans. (see for details http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/01/politics/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders-poll/ )

If I were an American I probably would do all I could to stop a Republican president but I wouldn't be happy with Clinton.  So while there is still a chance to have an alternative to both Republicans and the Clintons I'd be doing all I could to get Bernie in.  My understanding is probably quite basic as I clearly don't live there but my impression is that the Clinton favoured states have come early in the cycle, I think Bernie's best states are to come and you only have to look at how far he's come in the past few months.  I think I'm also right in understanding that Obama didn't lead in terms of delegates until much much later than this (May, I believe).  Also, something that is confusing me is the delegate count that is floating around includes the superdelegates?  Well they aren't set in stone, so if Bernie wins the popular vote surely not all of them would go with Hillary?

I can understand people being jaded and fed up with the system.  But who benefits from this?  The people who don't want change, no-one else!

[Davin]

Also, something that is confusing me is the delegate count that is floating around includes the superdelegates?  Well they aren't set in stone, so if Bernie wins the popular vote surely not all of them would go with Hillary?

Actually, it has happened that Hillary got all the super delegates on a huge defeat.

In New Hampshire, Bernie got 60% of the vote, Hillary got 38%. Huge victory for Bernie? Yep. He got 15 delegates while she got only 9. But what's this? 6 super delegates and all of them voted for Hillary. So a 20 point lead ended Bernie with a tie.

This video should help "clarify" why that happened: http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2016/02/13/superdelegates-bernie-sanders-hillary-clinton-debbie-wasserman-schultz-lead.cnn/video/playlists/bernie-sanders-2016/

[Claireliontamer]

Also, something that is confusing me is the delegate count that is floating around includes the superdelegates?  Well they aren't set in stone, so if Bernie wins the popular vote surely not all of them would go with Hillary?

Actually, it has happened that Hillary got all the super delegates on a huge defeat.

In New Hampshire, Bernie got 60% of the vote, Hillary got 38%. Huge victory for Bernie? Yep. He got 15 delegates while she got only 9. But what's this? 6 super delegates and all of them voted for Hillary. So a 20 point lead ended Bernie with a tie.

This video should help "clarify" why that happened: http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2016/02/13/superdelegates-bernie-sanders-hillary-clinton-debbie-wasserman-schultz-lead.cnn/video/playlists/bernie-sanders-2016/

I get that but I thought (and I could well be wrong) that the superdelegates didn't actually fully declare until the conference itself?

[Davin]

They can, but it's not common. Once they declare, there aren't many that change their support. But it's not impossible, and maybe with enough public outcry, they may change to be proportional.

At least as far as I understand it. It's a right mess trying to get solid information.

[Firebird]

The two party system is utter crap and it's a shame that people are too scared to veer away from it.  Bernie Sanders is running as a Democrat but from what I understand that's a recent affiliation and in all but the name he's really an independent.  Or he's certainly a huge step in the right direction away from the current Democrat party anyway. 

Specifically, he's an independent but caucuses with the Democrats.

My understanding is probably quite basic as I clearly don't live there but my impression is that the Clinton favoured states have come early in the cycle, I think Bernie's best states are to come and you only have to look at how far he's come in the past few months.  I think I'm also right in understanding that Obama didn't lead in terms of delegates until much much later than this (May, I believe). 

Obama did much better against Hillary in '08 by this point than Bernie has done, he was only down by a handful of delegates. And there are other reasons that the momentum is on Hillary's side. The Clintons have always been popular among African-Americans, and Bernie absolutely needed to make inroads with them to remain competitive in the upcoming states, and he hasn't; he got crushed by 50 points in South Carolina. Obama started to pull away from Hillary once it was shown he could cut into her perceived "firewall" with African-American voters.

Also, something that is confusing me is the delegate count that is floating around includes the superdelegates?  Well they aren't set in stone, so if Bernie wins the popular vote surely not all of them would go with Hillary?

Possibly, but again Hillary comes from a position of strength here, as the superdelegates are part of the establishment and Bernie would need to win them over. The fact that he's not technically a member of the party will probably hurt him there.

Believe me, I wish it were otherwise (I voted for Bernie) but facts are facts. I am definitely more and more concerned about how Hillary would fare against Trump. 3 months ago I would have been certain she'd wipe the floor with him. Now I don't know. The Trump phenomenon has upset many of the precedents about American politics over the past 30 years.

[Nam]

If Hilary Clinton picks Bernie Sanders for Vice President, and he accepts, she'll get almost all of Bernie's supporters, I believe.

-Nam

[Tank]

If Hilary Clinton picks Bernie Sanders for Vice President, and he accepts, she'll get almost all of Bernie's supporters, I believe.

-Nam

That would be an interesting ticket. Do you think it's a possibility?

[Nam]

Yeah, I think it's possible. Some people are throwing out a Clinton/Warren ticket and while Sanders and Warren are pretty much the same politically, the vast majority of people do not know Warren, and Sanders' supporters are invested in Sanders.

I just don't think Sanders would accept since he's about changing policy, and as Vice President he's just, basically, a top Ambassador. No real power to do anything.

-Nam

[Pasta Chick]

If Hilary Clinton picks Bernie Sanders for Vice President, and he accepts, she'll get almost all of Bernie's supporters, I believe.

-Nam

That would be an interesting ticket. Do you think it's a possibility?

I thought they were vying for that angle early in the primaries, since they were being pretty supportive of eachother in the beginning and really avoiding smear tactics.

[Firebird]

I just don't think Sanders would accept since he's about changing policy, and as Vice President he's just, basically, a top Ambassador. No real power to do anything.

-Nam

I think Nam's right. Becoming her VP undercuts his stated mission of political revolution.

[Nam]

If Hilary Clinton picks Bernie Sanders for Vice President, and he accepts, she'll get almost all of Bernie's supporters, I believe.

-Nam

That would be an interesting ticket. Do you think it's a possibility?

I thought they were vying for that angle early in the primaries, since they were being pretty supportive of eachother in the beginning and really avoiding smear tactics.

Doesn't really mean a thing other than perhaps not coming off like the Republicans at the moment who are doing nothing but that.

-Nam