Author Topic: Re: A Theist Hoping to Find Common Ground with Some Happy Atheists  (Read 5956 times)

Gerry Rzeppa

  • Not Sure About That Kool-Aid
  • **
  • Posts: 318
  • Gender: Male
Re: A Theist Hoping to Find Common Ground with Some Happy Atheists
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2014, 06:26:05 AM »
Well we have no examples of design that is even comparable with the physiology of a bird...

Agreed. Our creations are kid stuff compared to the "real thing".

what we have are object and machinery that mimic qualities of a bird be it the aesthetics or abilities such as flight...

Often by imitating a design found in nature, like the curvature of a wing or the "control flaps" on the back edges.

As we can only study in earnest what we have reference and knowledge of,

It certainly helps to be able to simulate the various assemblies and sub-assemblies that make up a functioning whole.

thus I can not see how anybody who is not ignorant of design can say that any biological organism bares the hallmarks of design especially when it is so far removed from anything that we know is to have been designed.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say there. Many are the parallels between our paltry designs and those found in nature. We might, for example, design a lifting mechanism with cables that mimic the action of biceps and triceps.

When we look at a formation like the Yonaguni Monument it is easy to compare it to monolithic architecture,

Okay.

when it comes to biology and the nature as a whole beyond just the aesthetic appearance what we have in comparison that has been designed doesn't even come close,

Already agreed on that one.

the best we can do is via looking at what is being done in the field of computer programming, already we know that from a designers point of view processes such as energy, reproduction, respiration, digestion, photosynthesis, et cetera are all unnecessary

Unnecessary? Depends on the desired result, I suppose.

if the beliefs of the various religions are to be true, and quite a overly complex way for a designer to achieve the goals they would want especially if they have whatever tools they can think of at their disposal.

Again, I think it depends on the desired result.

Gerry Rzeppa

  • Not Sure About That Kool-Aid
  • **
  • Posts: 318
  • Gender: Male
Re: A Theist Hoping to Find Common Ground with Some Happy Atheists
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2014, 06:50:10 AM »
...among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected. Other, more complicated solutions may ultimately prove correct, but—in the absence of certainty—the fewer assumptions that are made, the better.

Agreed.

Creationism fails because it HAS to assume the existence of some sentient, potent, willful force (for example god)

Sentient, potent, willful forces are everywhere; you're one; I'm one. We have a great deal of first-hand experience with them. We know, to a great degree, how they work and why they work. God is pictured as similar, but moreso and without our flaws. This may be an assumption, but it is not a great leap; my kids think I'm a lot like them only moreso and with fewer flaws (if only they knew!); why shouldn't we think that our Father in Heaven is so? But read on...

whereas non-theistic science only needs to rely on empirically demonstrable data.

Non-theistic science needs all sorts of very unscientific things to get anywhere at all. Curiosities, hunches, inklings, flashes of insight, desires, ambitions, envies, jealousies, and such like; not to mention Reason (with a capital "R" meaning the unprovable assumption that reasoning itself is valid), plus all sorts of sensory input and many other things that scientists use, every day, without having the foggiest idea where they come from and how they actually work. Further, non-theistic science assumes that order can arise from chaos without plan or purpose, which has never been demonstrated (perpetual motion machines, anyone?). Postulating a better designer than the designers we know first-hand is one kind of "assumption"; postulating something utterly foreign to everything we think and do (like the spontaneous emergence of order from chaos) is an assumption of an entirely different, and more significant, nature.

If theists such as yourself could provide empirical evidence for the existence of this world making superbeing it would be quite a different story. But so far such evidence is lacking.

The evidence is all around us, and within us. His works bear witness to his power and intelligence; and our own reasoning ability, our moral sense, our aesthetic sense, even our sense of humor, etc, bears witness to some of His other attributes. What? Are we to really to think that such things can arise, unbidden, from inert matter?

Every time we act, we change the natural course of events in the universe; we don't violate the physical laws, but rather provide them with fresh input; input they wouldn't have had had we not chosen to act. That's a tiny little taste of God's creative power -- a gift, from Him, and a witness to who He is. Want to see me rule over the natural laws that you apparently want to make your master? Look no further: by a shear act of will I have caused this post to take shape in the universe -- something that never would have happened had the universe been left to it's own devices. Goodness, people! You're immortal creations of the Divine! Why are you so intent on seeing yourselves as nothing but accidental hiccups in a universe doomed to maximum entropy?

Tank

  • Fed up with stupid.
  • Administrator
  • Excellent and Indefatigable Guardian of Reason
  • *****
  • Posts: 28670
  • Gender: Male
Re: A Theist Hoping to Find Common Ground with Some Happy Atheists
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2014, 07:01:01 AM »
Gerry I would be interested in an example of something you consider designed.

How about two examples? (1) This post. (2) The guy who wrote it.

(1) Yes
(2) No
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
“Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.” ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett

Tank

  • Fed up with stupid.
  • Administrator
  • Excellent and Indefatigable Guardian of Reason
  • *****
  • Posts: 28670
  • Gender: Male
Re: A Theist Hoping to Find Common Ground with Some Happy Atheists
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2014, 07:03:37 AM »


So, design or non-design? How can we tell?

You still haven't defined design as an objective measure Gerry.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
“Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.” ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett