Author Topic: artificial inteligence  (Read 395 times)

Gloucester

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Re: artificial inteligence
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2017, 05:41:43 AM »
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joeactor

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Re: artificial inteligence
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2017, 09:54:34 AM »
^^^ Interesting and enjoyable... Thanks!

Arturo

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Re: artificial inteligence
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2017, 12:02:51 PM »
That was interesting but I can't help but wonder what they will do with all those displaced workers. And will humans even want to take solutions to global warming if they don't even believe it exists? Time will tell and the question will be forgotten maybe.
But, uh...well there it is.


Gloucester

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Re: artificial inteligence
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2017, 12:55:23 PM »
That was interesting but I can't help but wonder what they will do with all those displaced workers. And will humans even want to take solutions to global warming if they don't even believe it exists? Time will tell and the question will be forgotten maybe.

Working backwards on that.

I feel the problem will become ever more demanding of an answer, unless serious sapathy sets in. Unfortunstely there are signs that apathy is currently getting a grip, workers are becoming shirkers because it is easier than fighting for a job,. Perhaps  we need another peasant uprising! "The workers are revolting!"

Glad you changed your handle, Arturo!

Even the Chinese have, politically st least so far, cottoned on to the idea that climate change and smog are enemies of the people. Which makes them brighter than Trump... new high rise buldings have to include solar cells or heat collectors on the roof and they may be stepping up electric car production. The latter is not so good for the West, China has most of the world's known neodymium reserves, the element essential in making very high efficiency electric motors. (Got a couple of pounds of, it in the form of various magnet shapes, myself.) Cheaper, though imported (so not for the Trumpian US) electric cars may be around when their home market is satisfied (or they need foreign currency).

Displaced workers is the more difficult question, could take fiur geberations to dort out. Provided catholics etc do not breed like rabbits and kids are willing to train for the sort of jobs robots and AI can't do. It probably took almost as many humans to provide the concept and programming for those cars as normal, but maybe with a slightly different skillset to that required ten years ago. Seemed to take less to glue them together though, but they will probably robotise that task later...

Maybe the politicians will eventually have to do the sci-fi scenario thing, force companies to employ humans in a rstion determined by their turnover or tax the ass off them to fund the unemployment benefits. However, unemploynent, as some here know (I do), does one's mental and emotional health no good at all.


« Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 12:43:37 AM by Gloucester »
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Arturo

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Re: artificial inteligence
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2017, 04:35:55 PM »
That was interesting but I can't help but wonder what they will do with all those displaced workers. And will humans even want to take solutions to global warming if they don't even believe it exists? Time will tell and the question will be forgotten maybe.

Working backwards on that.

I feel the problem will become ever more demanding of an answer, unless serious sapathy sets in. Unfortunstely there are signs that apathy is currently getting a grip, workers are becoming shirkers because it is easier than fighting for a job,. Perhaps  we need another peasant uprising! "The workers are revolting!"

Glad you changed your handle, Arturo!

Even the Chinese have, politically st least so far, cottoned on to the idea that climate change and smog are enemies of the people. Which makes them brighter than Trump... new high rise buldings have to include solar cells or heat collectors on the roof and they may be stepping up electric car production. Tge latter is nit so good for the West, Ciba has most of the world's known neodymium reserves, the element essential in making very high efficiency electric motors. (Got a couple of pounds of, it in the form of various magnet shapes, myself.) Cheaper, though imported (so not for the Trumpian US) electric cars may be around when their home market is satisfied (or they need foreign currency).

Displaced workers is the more difficult question, could take fiur geberations to dort out. Provided catholics etc do not breed like rabbits and kids are willing to train for the sort of jobs robots and AI can't do. It probably took almost as many humans to provide the concept and programming for those cars as normal, but maybe with a slightly different skillset to that required ten years ago. Seemed to take less to glue them together though, but they will probably robotise that task later...

Maybe the politicians will eventually have to do the sci-fi scenario thing, force companies to employ humans in a rstion determined by their turnover or tax the ass off them to fund the unemployment benefits. However, unemploynent, as some here know (I do), does one's mental and emotional health no good at all.

I mean, short of a fully automatized world of robots, I see a lot of employment problems in the future. I even saw a video from Japan where a computer program animated a body all on it's own. With full automation I see it more like a marxist / retirement environment where people only work on things that they like and robots provide everything we need.
But, uh...well there it is.


Gloucester

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Re: artificial inteligence
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2017, 11:06:10 PM »
I mean, short of a fully automatized world of robots, I see a lot of employment problems in the future. I even saw a video from Japan where a computer program animated a body all on it's own. With full automation I see it more like a marxist / retirement environment where people only work on things that they like and robots provide everything we need.

Where I worked they brought in some CNC machines. Everyone thought it would dumb down the jobs of the skilled turners and millers but . . .

It took those machines a fraction of the time it took a human to produce the same number of perfect doohickeys or widgets. So, did that mean only needing one man to supervise several machines, short time working or what? Nope, they retrained the machinists to programme their own machines. They spent part of their time at a computer setting the job up, organising the stock needed etc. Some machines had time and operator sharing so A was supervising his batch whilst B programmed his next one - optimum man and machine usage. Some staff were not able to do the new tasks but most of those were "lost" by retasking, retirement or resignation. There were some redundancies but voluntary ones got an enhanced package and help finding new jobs.

But, no doubt the capacity of such schemes will have a limit.
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Arturo

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Re: artificial inteligence
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2017, 12:41:47 AM »
I mean, short of a fully automatized world of robots, I see a lot of employment problems in the future. I even saw a video from Japan where a computer program animated a body all on it's own. With full automation I see it more like a marxist / retirement environment where people only work on things that they like and robots provide everything we need.

Where I worked they brought in some CNC machines. Everyone thought it would dumb down the jobs of the skilled turners and millers but . . .

It took those machines a fraction of the time it took a human to produce the same number of perfect doohickeys or widgets. So, did that mean only needing one man to supervise several machines, short time working or what? Nope, they retrained the machinists to programme their own machines. They spent part of their time at a computer setting the job up, organising the stock needed etc. Some machines had time and operator sharing so A was supervising his batch whilst B programmed his next one - optimum man and machine usage. Some staff were not able to do the new tasks but most of those were "lost" by retasking, retirement or resignation. There were some redundancies but voluntary ones got an enhanced package and help finding new jobs.

But, no doubt the capacity of such schemes will have a limit.

Yes and the human population is rapidly increasing at a higher and higher increment every year. We might end up giving robots the world and die off ourselves. But that's just my wild imagination running. But one thing we are not ready for is if these robots start to demand rights. We base our rights off of our understanding of suffering to avoid it. So if robots demand rights, what will they be? Will we even understand it?
But, uh...well there it is.


Gloucester

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Re: artificial inteligence
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2017, 02:25:15 PM »
In a BBC prog, "The Public Philosopher" the subject of trust in machines came up. One of the audience, a guy who had worked on the development of the fMRI system, said that he would trust an intelligent system - not quite am Ai yet - in disgnosis over a human.

I thought about that. As he said the machine can compare the symptoms with a library of symptoms accumulated over years and across the world. I can see that, in this world where a disease can fly across the world in 24 hours it could be good if symptoms in London could quickly be spotted as being similar to those in a case China.

This implies symptoms that can be "digitized" and which are put into a data store with international access.

From my own experience 7 GPs have missed cardiac symptoms merely because they assumed the least complex reason or were not familiar with them. Putting me on a hospital level ECG monitor might have compared my symptoms with its library and pointed out the most likely diagnosis, or at least that further investigation might be becessary.

Machibes are not infallible, they are only as good as their algorythms and their data base, but they are improving by the year - then they need confidebce in the humans using them to accept tge results.

Is this dumbing down the medical profession? To a degree this has happened already, once only doctors ran CT scanners and tge lije, now it is a nurse, alveit a soecislist nurse. That frees the doctor for the cleverer stuff. In the UK they are having trouble finding enough doctors and nurses, I think it woukd be good if they could find ways of getting the basics done faster.

Machines don't get tired at 3am in a busy ER and misread an ECG trace or miss the indications of blood results.
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Icarus

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Re: artificial inteligence
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2017, 10:35:38 PM »
Friend wife is a fan of a TV series called Chicago Med.  There is a seasoned old staff member of the hospital who is a shrink. He is a lovable old dude. He has an apprentice female MD who is studying to become a psych doc. Between the two of them they are able to discern some patient problems that are not likely to be revealed by a machine. That is the human element of medicine. Emotions are part of the deal. As soon as we train some AI machine to understand and respond to the vagaries of human emotions, then we will not need Psych docs. Until that time we do need the humans.

Gloucester

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Re: artificial inteligence
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2017, 01:20:27 AM »
Friend wife is a fan of a TV series called Chicago Med.  There is a seasoned old staff member of the hospital who is a shrink. He is a lovable old dude. He has an apprentice female MD who is studying to become a psych doc. Between the two of them they are able to discern some patient problems that are not likely to be revealed by a machine. That is the human element of medicine. Emotions are part of the deal. As soon as we train some AI machine to understand and respond to the vagaries of human emotions, then we will not need Psych docs. Until that time we do need the humans.

I should have been clearer that I was talking about physical disease that had symptoms that were "digitizable". That could jnclude things from temperature to scans. It could include the already practiced computerised question session. Typed responses are used but I am sure speech recognition will overtake that. If you dial 111, the non-emergency system in the UK, a non-healthcare professional operator asks you a string of standard questions with yes/no answers. This could be stage one, some questions are basic others relate to more serious conditions like meningitis or anaphylaxis. These are entered into a system that then determines the priority. Tick box technology. There are a limited number of such operators and you may have to wait 10 minutes or much more at busy times.

This is a kind of computer assisted non-expert human triage that an "expert" system could make faster and be just as efficient I think. Still a stage one diagnosis that you have to go through whatever kind of condition, mental or physical, you are calling about. Stage two is a nurse who decides whether a doctor should be brought into the loop or an ambulance sent.

There will always be conditions that require the human brain but for physically measurable symptoms a machine can make an early diagnosis and, in some cases, possibly a safer one.

Ultimately there will be the Star Wars type scanner. Most of that is available now but it requires a very large room full of kit, a very, very deep pocket and a whole team of operators and interpreters. But things like liquid and gas spectrometers are getting smaller and cheaper and ECG and EEG machines "smarter" every year. Many pathology processes are entirely machine run now, the developing concept of a "lab-on-a-chip" could make these available in the ER one day. Feed it all into a super-comp or a "Watson" like cloud computer system that can, at least, flag up the priority on a prima facie diagnosis.

At the moment defibrillators that a nember of the public can use without training can "diagnose" whether a cardiac shock is needed or not. This is a reasonably safe situation, the shock is uncomfortable to aware patients and may leave a minor burn but can save a life long before a medic can get there if needed.
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Gloucester

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Re: artificial inteligence
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2017, 04:19:04 AM »
Intel's slant on AI

Quote
How Does Artificial Intelligence Impact Us?
Artificial intelligence promises to transform society on the scale of the industrial, technical, and digital revolutions before it. Machines that can sense, reason, and act will accelerate solutions to large-scale problems in myriad of fields, including science, finance, medicine and education, augmenting human capability and helping us to go further, farther, faster. Buoyed by Moore’s Law and fed by a deluge of data, AI is at the heart of much of today’s technical innovation.
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Recusant

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Re: artificial inteligence
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2017, 04:23:35 AM »
Yes and the human population is rapidly increasing at a higher and higher increment every year.

Population is increasing, certainly. However the rate of growth has been dropping for some time now.

Quote


The world’s population has grown exponentially in the last 100 years, but the rate of growth has declined drastically in recent decades and is expected to continue decreasing through the middle of the 21st century.
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Gloucester

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Re: artificial inteligence
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2017, 04:42:21 AM »
Yes and the human population is rapidly increasing at a higher and higher increment every year.

Population is increasing, certainly. However the rate of growth has been dropping for some time now.

Quote


The world’s population has grown exponentially in the last 100 years, but the rate of growth has declined drastically in recent decades and is expected to continue decreasing through the middle of the 21st century.

Interesting difference there, Recusant.
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Arturo

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Re: artificial inteligence
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2017, 01:29:10 PM »
Yes and the human population is rapidly increasing at a higher and higher increment every year.

Population is increasing, certainly. However the rate of growth has been dropping for some time now.

Quote


The world’s population has grown exponentially in the last 100 years, but the rate of growth has declined drastically in recent decades and is expected to continue decreasing through the middle of the 21st century.

That's weird. I guess there are still more babies being made than their parents.
But, uh...well there it is.


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Re: artificial inteligence
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2017, 11:00:15 AM »
Yes and the human population is rapidly increasing at a higher and higher increment every year.

Population is increasing, certainly. However the rate of growth has been dropping for some time now.

Quote


The world’s population has grown exponentially in the last 100 years, but the rate of growth has declined drastically in recent decades and is expected to continue decreasing through the middle of the 21st century.

That's weird. I guess there are still more babies being made than their parents.

Not so. We passed peak child in 2015. Technically humanity is now heading for extinction.
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