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Marriage

Started by Stevil, July 12, 2012, 12:33:21 AM

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Sweetdeath

#15
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on July 12, 2012, 01:52:03 AM
Okay, I know that everyone's on eggshells lately, but I'm going to say this anyway.

I find it pretty offensive to refer to other women as "slutty" because you don't like them (or because they "wear too much makeup" or "like surveying men" or whatever). SD, you often wax on about your love for equality, but can't you see that when women call each other "sluts", it's not really helping anyone's cause? If she has a shitty personality, fine. She has a shitty personality. Hate her for her shitty personality. But when you try to use her sexuality as a weapon against her, it hurts all of us.

Ahh, i suppose i do seem like a bad person, but it is one of those things where i cant properly explain it. Or "You just have to meet her to know what i mean..."

I am the last person to refer to a women as 'slutty' because she wears waaaay too much makeup or low plunging dresses.
Though for our jobs, it seems extremely unnecessary. And she has even told me she loves to manipulate men.
I don't like her at all. I agree that i really shouldnt comment on her looks or attire, but yes, her as a person really bothers me to no end. She is also extremely catholic.

As for the abusive relationship: She married whoever she married... I mean, what am i suppose to do? She complains, but it isn't my business. Not like she is showing up to work with bruises. If she wants to fight with her husband, it is not my business nor problem.
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

DeterminedJuliet

#16
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 12, 2012, 02:39:04 AM
Ahh, i suppose i do seem like a bad person, but it is one of those things where i cant properly explain it. Or "You just have to meet her to know what i mean..."

I am the last person to refer to a women as 'slutty' because she wears waaaay too much makeup or low plunging dresses.
Though for our jobs, it seems extremely unnecessary. And she has even told me she loves to manipulate men.
I don't like her at all.

I'm not saying you're a bad person or that she's a good person. My point is that calling her "slutty" re-enforces the idea that sexuality should be used as a weapon to bring people down. And, for the record, I've known plenty of horrible, manipulative, sexual women, so I don't really think the "you'd have to know her" is a great defense. It has nothing to do with her, really. It's about language that is specifically designed to tear women down for being sexual beings. Can't you see that when you call her "slutty" for the way she acts, it validates the opinion that someone can use YOUR sexuality against you, if you don't conform to their ideas about how a woman should behave?  

You do know, that for some people, being a lesbian automatically makes you a "slut". When you call other women sluts in this way, no matter what they are like, you are helping people who think like that.

Anyway, as for the domestic abuse situation - no, it's not your problem. I don't know enough about what's going on to really comment further. I was just expressing some surprise because it seemed like an insensitive comment.
"We've thought of life by analogy with a journey, with pilgrimage which had a serious purpose at the end, and the THING was to get to that end; success, or whatever it is, or maybe heaven after you're dead. But, we missed the point the whole way along; It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing, or dance, while the music was being played.

Ali

Totally agree, DJ and Will.

I have no idea if this woman is a nice person or not, but what I do know is that I am OVER slut shaming.  Girls/Women that own their sexuality rock and more power to them.

Genericguy

What about men? Is there a male "look" that is deserving of the title slut? If its the metrosexual look, personally I wouldn't call them slutty, but I also wouldn't hang out with them either, as they are far to easily manipulated by crab people.

Will

Quote from: Genericguy on July 12, 2012, 04:09:31 AM
What about men? Is there a male "look" that is deserving of the title slut? If its the metrosexual look, personally I wouldn't call them slutty, but I also wouldn't hang out with them either, as they are far to easily manipulated by crab people.
We're living in a patriarchal society, so directly comparing men to women on issues like this doesn't work.

I *am* slutty. I am a slutty gentleman. I'm assertive, I like to strike up conversations with women I find interesting or attractive, I do not dress conservatively, I've been in and out of sexual relationships with women since my teens, and not once have I ever been made to feel ashamed for my sexuality. The issue is that society doesn't tell me that my entire worth is tied up in being a sexual object. When I go to see movies, most of them are either about men, or about women who only talk about or think about men. There are sexy men and sexy women in ads, but you'll never see a Victoria's Secret for men commercial, or if you do it will be satirical. If anything, society teaches me that I'm somehow entitled to not just a woman, but a beautiful woman. When you take a step back and look at all this, it's completely crazy.

I can go into more detail, if you like, but I don't want to derail the thread, which is supposed to be about marriage. Out of respect to OP, I'll try to get back on track.
I want bad people to look forward to and celebrate the day I die, because if they don't, I'm not living up to my potential.

DeterminedJuliet

Quote from: Genericguy on July 12, 2012, 04:09:31 AM
What about men? Is there a male "look" that is deserving of the title slut? If its the metrosexual look, personally I wouldn't call them slutty, but I also wouldn't hang out with them either, as they are far to easily manipulated by crab people.

I think male sexuality is generally approached differently, so calling a guy a "slut" probably doesn't have the same kind of impact. I think sexist attacks on men are usually focused around trying to tear down their masculinity in other ways. Traditionally, male sexuality is framed as a juxtaposition to women's (men pursue, women are pursued; men are dominant, women are passive; men always want sex, women have to be "woo'd"), so the biggest "insult" is to compare them to a woman in some way, either directly or indirectly. I think calling a guy a "fag" is an illusion to this in a round-about way, because gay men are seen to challenge the male/female sexuality dichotomy.

"We've thought of life by analogy with a journey, with pilgrimage which had a serious purpose at the end, and the THING was to get to that end; success, or whatever it is, or maybe heaven after you're dead. But, we missed the point the whole way along; It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing, or dance, while the music was being played.

DeterminedJuliet

Haha, sorry. Like Will, I seem to be derailing this thread further than I intended.  :-X
"We've thought of life by analogy with a journey, with pilgrimage which had a serious purpose at the end, and the THING was to get to that end; success, or whatever it is, or maybe heaven after you're dead. But, we missed the point the whole way along; It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing, or dance, while the music was being played.

Genericguy

I completely agree and it has always bothered me. I just couldn't resist slipping in the south park reference. I guess no one got it, though. I apologize for future references and similes centered around television. It's one of my favorite things to do. Kind of like the Mary Cathrin Gallagher skit on Saturday night live when she acts out scenes from movies to better express her feeling.... Shit, I just did it again!

</derail>

OldGit

SHOCK HORROR !  Old Git actually turns a thread back on track for once:
------------

I agree with what Ali was saying a while back: one very important thing about marraige is the celebration.  All human beings need solemn events to mark major milestones like birth, coming of age, marraige and death.  It's in our genes.

Now we have contraception, so much has changed.  It's no longer so vital to make people marry so as to look after the children.  Women's rĂ´le in society has improved hugely, they can now be financially and socially independent.  But IMO there's still a lot to be said for making a formal bond and starting it off with a public celebration.  The couple solemnly commit to each other.

We enjoyed our wedding hugely and so did our daughters, and we're glad we did it and have been pretty happy since.  If any couple wants to do it differently, that's fine; I have no objections and it's up to them. I do hope, though that they aren't missing out on something which would have been to their benefit, just because that's the trend these days.

Wrath

Quote from: Stevil on July 12, 2012, 12:33:21 AM
With countries that don't allow gay people to be married but instead allow Civil Union, what is the difference other than a name? Why don't heterosexual couples opt for civil union instead, in support of anti-discrimination against gays?
I would, in particular, like to address this point.

There are three main reasons, as I see it, why there is so much fuss over same-sex marriage, emphasis on the marriage, from the LGBT community (and its supporters).


  • 'Civil Union' simply is not romantic. We're not going to say "we're going to enter a civil union", or "he's my civil partner", we're going to say "we're getting married!!"
  • There is no reason to form a distinction between same-sex marriages and heterosexual marriages. In fact, there is reason not to. Various state supreme courts have found that even just referring to them separately opens the door to unequal treatment, just as "separate-but-equal" schools were found illegal.
  • Referring to same-sex marriages as anything other than marriage indirectly reinforces the view that the relationship is significantly different or inferior. If the only thing you knew about same-sex couples was that they were denied the right to call themselves married, it would be a bad impression.

And I know this will sound a little melodramatic, but the gay community definitely has pride, and it can pretty much ruin your day when you hear about discrimination happening -- or make your day when you hear about positive changes.

Stevil

Quote from: Wrath on July 12, 2012, 09:52:03 AM
  • Referring to same-sex marriages as anything other than marriage indirectly reinforces the view that the relationship is significantly different or inferior. If the only thing you knew about same-sex couples was that they were denied the right to call themselves married, it would be a bad impression.
Yup, so I would say, that if your government does not allow gay people to be "married" but allows people to form a "Civil Union" then that is what all people should do, either that or not marry at all. We aren't so precious of the "marriage" label but would prefer to use it. Our power in this "war" is to ruin the sacredness of marriage, which is opposite to the misguided religous folks intent behind excluding gay people from it.
We have the power here, we need to co-ordinate ourselves at take advantage of it.

Wrath

Quote from: Stevil on July 12, 2012, 10:08:31 AM
Quote from: Wrath on July 12, 2012, 09:52:03 AM
  • Referring to same-sex marriages as anything other than marriage indirectly reinforces the view that the relationship is significantly different or inferior. If the only thing you knew about same-sex couples was that they were denied the right to call themselves married, it would be a bad impression.
Yup, so I would say, that if your government does not allow gay people to be "married" but allows people to form a "Civil Union" then that is what all people should do, either that or not marry at all. We aren't so precious of the "marriage" label but would prefer to use it. Our power in this "war" is to ruin the sacredness of marriage, which is opposite to the misguided religous folks intent behind excluding gay people from it.
We have the power here, we need to co-ordinate ourselves at take advantage of it.

A great example of this would be Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie refusing to get married in support of gay marriage. I've never cared about celebrities, but because they have the power to actually reach people, it really brightened my day when I found out, knowing that they could put this kind of message out there.

I wouldn't expect anybody to do it though -- or begrudge them for getting married. Being able to choose what to do with your own relationships is what we're after here, right?

If anything, I'm more interested in questioning why we as a species, at least as a majority, are so hung up on this single form of family unit. Not saying I'm for polygamy, but it would be interesting to at least see how other organizations work out.

Stevil

Quote from: Wrath on July 12, 2012, 10:17:24 AM
Not saying I'm for polygamy, but it would be interesting to at least see how other organizations work out.
I'm against laws that are against polygamy.
Adult ought to be able to choose their own path, government are overstepping their bounds. What concern is it of theirs anyway?

Wrath

Quote from: Stevil on July 12, 2012, 10:34:48 AM
Quote from: Wrath on July 12, 2012, 10:17:24 AM
Not saying I'm for polygamy, but it would be interesting to at least see how other organizations work out.

I'm against laws that are against polygamy.
Adult ought to be able to choose their own path, government are overstepping their bounds. What concern is it of theirs anyway?

I'm sure that the current laws against polygamy were inspired by religious bigotry and the "traditional family". However, I could see some reasonable motivation for opposing polygamy -- that it is constantly used as a tool of religious cults to oppress and abuse young women. I suppose outright banning of polygamy could simply be replaced by stricter scrutiny, but that could still be viewed as prejudiced and unequal treatment.

Sweetdeath

Quote from: Stevil on July 12, 2012, 10:34:48 AM
Quote from: Wrath on July 12, 2012, 10:17:24 AM
Not saying I'm for polygamy, but it would be interesting to at least see how other organizations work out.
I'm against laws that are against polygamy.
Adult ought to be able to choose their own path, government are overstepping their bounds. What concern is it of theirs anyway?

i agree with this. why is everyone so against adults doing as they please if they are happy and consenting?
there is no such thing as traditional love or marriage.
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.