Happy Atheist Forum

Atheism is the correct view.  I do not doubt that.  The question I raise is: is it fair to push atheism on one's kids, not allowing them to attend church or engage in religious practices?  

I think the best solution to parenting is not to push atheism on the child, but to teach the child logic and let him/her choose.  With that, the child will most likely not believe in God.

The only way to push atheism on someone is if they're already religious. No one is born religious, so a parent would only be maintaining their child's atheism.

One of the most important jobs as a parent is teaching your child how to tell fantasy from reality, teaching deductive reasoning, logic, science, and healthy skepticism. If the child learns these things, it's highly unlikely he or she will become religious.

I didn't even know the word atheist until I was five or six.  My parents did not take me to church and they really didn't talk about religion at all.  

I was about five years old and I was reading a book in which a character was going on about God.  It broke my suspension of disbelief so I just had to show my mom the strange thing I had read. I asked her if people actually believed God was real or was the writer just making stuff up?  It didn't occur to me that God was something real.  She diplomatically told me that some people believe God is real.  I asked my father the same question and he stated that mom was correct, that some people believe in God and then he suggested I read through his library of books on philosophy, mythology, psychology, and anthropology.  Neither of my parents said anything bad about religion.  

When I was nine I wanted to go to vacation Bible school so they signed me up and I went.  I went mainly to please my sister who began attending church to suck up to a boy she liked.  I also went because I was curios about it.  I was fascinated by the experience and had to tell my mom every detail when I got home each day.  It was like a really awesome anthropology field trip.  Mostly I just listened and observed.  Everyone knew I was incredibly shy anyway (read as: almost non-verbal with anyone but my family) so I didn't arouse any suspicions.  

This began a series of discussions about religion.  At that point, my dad admitted that he didn't believe in God and my mom said she wasn't sure but that she didn't believe in the Bible God for sure.  Her reason was that she believed love to be the most important thing in life and the Bible promotes a belief that isn't loving.  I didn't feel pushed or coerced or forced to be an atheist.  Having enough information led to me being an atheist.

My parents admitted that if i had asked to go to church or Bible school at a younger age, they probably wouldn't have allowed it, simply because small children believe anything an authority figure tells them.  They wanted me to be old enough to decide for myself before being exposed to pressure to believe in God.

I don't think waiting for a child to be old enough to make decisions for herself before allowing her to go to church is the same as forcing atheism on her.  Of my siblings that made it to adulthood, my brother is an atheist and my sister is a believer.

I think that pushing atheism on children would be telling them, "This is what I believe and you have to believe it, too."  I don't think parents have any obligation to take their kids to church.

How can you push a lack of something on someone already lacking it?

Quote from: "Asmodean"How can you push a lack of something on someone already lacking it?

Isn't that what credit is?

My wife and I are both innate atheists, we have never succumbed to religious beliefs and had to find our way out from under the comfort blanket of institutionalised superstition aka religion. We were both exposed to religion as children, I through my mother and my wife through her school. We have three children one born in '84 and twins in '86. At no time did we really discuss religion with our kids at all, it was a non-subject as they grew up. We never avoided or criticised religious actively, they simply didn't develop an interest.

I am quite proud of the attitude my kids display to ethnicity and those of a religious persuasion, for them these are also non-subjects. My son spent 6 months with a room mate at Berkeley who was a quite overt Muslim from Singapore. They were on the same course and just got to know and like each other. My son's long term American girlfriend is ethnic Vietnamese, both her parents escaping from Vietnam before '72 and meeting in America. My daughters can't wait till they have kids as they both think the baby(s) will be ultra cute  :hail:

Tank's post seems reasonable to me.
But what happens if you live in a barking mad god bothering community?
Do you teach your children to pretend?

The only issue with keeping a child out of church is running the risk of socially alienating them.  Like it or not, the church does provide a good social service, especially for young children...except the ones who get raped of course.
I met my first friends at sunday school when I was about 4.  When the priest asked my parents to keep me home, I lost those friends.  Not really sure if there is a good way to approach this issue tbh...religious people make it so fucking hard.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"Tank's post seems reasonable to me.
But what happens if you live in a barking mad god bothering community?
Do you teach your children to pretend?

I find this thread quite interesting in light of this being an Atheist forum.

How could any professing Atheist parent think twice whether to teach their child about Atheism or not?  It just seems odd and out of place.  Maybe someone can explain the reason(s) to better understand.

I have not taught my son -- he's 13 -- what to think, but rather, how to think.

I've also told him that if he finds he believes in god(s), that I will love him just the same.  I answer what questions of his I can regarding any subject, not just religion.  And when we disagree, I model the behavior I want to see in him, by asking for evidence, explaining how I analyze it, and admitting error when I'm wrong.

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"I have not taught my son -- he's 13 -- what to think, but rather, how to think.

I've also told him that if he finds he believes in god(s), that I will love him just the same.  I answer what questions of his I can regarding any subject, not just religion.  And when we disagree, I model the behavior I want to see in him, by asking for evidence, explaining how I analyze it, and admitting error when I'm wrong.

I tend to side with your 'managment' style, but on the flip-side.  

You only need to teach them how to use their brain. Teach them critical thinking skills, how to be skeptical and ask questions, how and why you ask for evidence, or teach them the scientific method. Most importantly, teach them the basics of how the mechanics of brainwashing works in order to protect them from subliminal and manipulative emotional suggestions. This is of course on top of teaching them to respect and care for other people, and includes people that may or may not agree with them.

However, there is no need to ever bring up religion or a GOD. They can decide for themselves what they want to believe in that regard. I wouldn't love a child any less if they turned out to believe in a GOD or became apart of a religion. Though I would hope I had taught them well enough not to become fanatics, extremists ect.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"How could any professing Atheist parent think twice whether to teach their child about Atheism or not?  It just seems odd and out of place.  Maybe someone can explain the reason(s) to better understand.

This idea has been explained to you dozens of times so far.  I'm not sure you can get past your own misconstrued judgments in order to grasp what Atheism is.  Certainly there are going to be extreme examples of Atheist parents who will teach their kids to condescend on believers, and from day one that there is without a doubt definitely no god...but they are outliers, and very few in number.  

The vast majority of Atheists rely on logic, rationality, and the scientific method to gain understanding of this strange universe, and our place in it.  I am on the same page as Thump, Jackel, and Tank.  Should my wife and I decide to have kids, or one comes along by mistake, we will allow them to make their own decisions on faith, just as our parents did.

I think what upsets you is that the stance we're taking is one that you were not afforded when you were being raised.  Let's be real, you're a well-spoken, intelligent person.  You post thoughtful responses consistently; yet you seem chained down by your beliefs, unable to consider changing your position, plus your arguments have turned into semantic battles.  Have you considered anything that has been said to you thus far as an alternative to your convictions?

Quote from: "TheJackel"I wouldn't love a child any less if they turned out to believe in a GOD or became apart of a religion. Though I would hope I had taught them well enough not to become fanatics, extremists ect.

I'm assuming you mean that within religion there are fanatics/extremists and you wouldn't want them to go THAT far into religion and not that simply to believe in god(s) is to be a fanatic or an extremist.  Yes?

I am encouraged by these responses.  I would've thought the opposite.

Quote from: "DropLogic"This idea has been explained to you dozens of times so far. I'm not sure you can get past your own misconstrued judgments in order to grasp what Atheism is. Certainly there are going to be extreme examples of Atheist parents who will teach their kids to condescend on believers, and from day one that there is without a doubt definitely no god...but they are outliers, and very few in number.

The vast majority of Atheists rely on logic, rationality, and the scientific method to gain understanding of this strange universe, and our place in it. I am on the same page as Thump, Jackel, and Tank. Should my wife and I decide to have kids, or one comes along by mistake, we will allow them to make their own decisions on faith, just as our parents did.

I think what upsets you is that the stance we're taking is one that you were not afforded when you were being raised. Let's be real, you're a well-spoken, intelligent person. You post thoughtful responses consistently; yet you seem chained down by your beliefs, unable to consider changing your position, plus your arguments have turned into semantic battles. Have you considered anything that has been said to you thus far as an alternative to your convictions?

I apologize for sounding upset.  I'm not upset at all.  As I stated above, I'm encouraged.  I admittedly had (and maybe still have to some degree) a skewed view of what an Atheist is.  Not surprisingly as most my interaction has been through forums where the premise is debate.  I have a few friends that are Atheist, but one in particular that I am close with and I've always known him to be nothing short of a better "Christian" than I am, simply without belief in Christ.

I don't feel chained down to my beliefs.  I'm changing my position on what I believe Atheists are, who they are, what they believe, and how they believe.  I find many things said to me compelling and thought provoking.  I don't pretend to know the answers to all things.  I consider and ponder many of the things that are brought up.

All I wanted to convey in this thread, and apparently it sounded upset, was that I'm surprised at my misconception and encouraged that while we may go in circles on debate and discussion of things we disagree on, the majority of you could very well be much like my good friend.

Fundamentalist atheists are much rarer than posited by fundamentalist Christians.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"Tank's post seems reasonable to me.
But what happens if you live in a barking mad god bothering community?
Do you teach your children to pretend?

I find this thread quite interesting in light of this being an Atheist forum.

How could any professing Atheist parent think twice whether to teach their child about Atheism or not?  It just seems odd and out of place.  Maybe someone can explain the reason(s) to better understand.

One doesn't have to teach atheism, it's the natural state of a child. One has to protect them from people who would corrupt their world view by telling them stories about mythology and suggesting that those stories are facts, not wishful thinking inherited from their parents or some other authority figure like Billy Graham.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"I'm assuming you mean that within religion there are fanatics/extremists and you wouldn't want them to go THAT far into religion and not that simply to believe in god(s) is to be a fanatic or an extremist.  Yes?

What loving parent would want their children to become extremists, or fanatics? Even if I were still a devout Christian I wouldn't want my kids (should I ever have any) to become extremists, or fanatics. This is speaking in terms where they become dangerous to society and themselves. I wouldn't want them to become Atheist extremists or fanatics either. There is a difference between fanatical extremism and practicing a religion, or not practicing a religion. This is why you teach your kids to respect other people and their beliefs even if you disagree with them. It's fine to have conflicting arguments, but when people start threatening and killing each other it's gone way beyond civility.

Quote from: "TheJackel"

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"I'm assuming you mean that within religion there are fanatics/extremists and you wouldn't want them to go THAT far into religion and not that simply to believe in god(s) is to be a fanatic or an extremist.  Yes?

What loving parent would want their children to become extremists, or fanatics? Even if I were still a devout Christian I wouldn't want my kids (should I ever have any) to become extremists, or fanatics. This is speaking in terms where they become dangerous to society and themselves. I wouldn't want them to become Atheist extremists or fanatics either. There is a difference between fanatical extremism and practicing a religion, or not practicing a religion. This is why you teach your kids to respect other people and their beliefs even if you disagree with them. It's fine to have conflicting arguments, but when people start threatening and killing each other it's gone way beyond civility.

That's what I thought.  

i think you shouldnt push him towards anything and let him/her decide.
growing up i wasnt pushed towards anything. sure i did go to church like grandma and sunday school with my aunt but just over time with logic i was pushed towards non religion. i had no outside factors persuading me. if your child really wants to be an atheist then they will become one. but i dont think it should be pushed.

People who have written books and given talks on how to parent as an atheist tend to lean towards complete openness on religion including allowing the child to attend church.  I definately agree with this approach for many reasons:

1)  Do we as freethinkers want to restrict our children's freedom of thought?  I think not.  It is better to expose them to all information so that they too can come to an informed decision.  

2) We complain about religious parents not allowing their children to learn about other religions.  Why would we want to commit the same wrong?

3)  Kids tend to do what their parents tell them not to do.  Telling a kid they can't go to church is likely to have them running to the pew when they rebel in their teenage years.

4)  Reading the bible and going to church armed with a skeptical background naturally creates atheist.

Quote from: "Whitney"People who have written books and given talks on how to parent as an atheist tend to lean towards complete openness on religion including allowing the child to attend church.  I definately agree with this approach for many reasons:

1)  Do we as freethinkers want to restrict our children's freedom of thought?  I think not.  It is better to expose them to all information so that they too can come to an informed decision.  

2) We complain about religious parents not allowing their children to learn about other religions.  Why would we want to commit the same wrong?

3)  Kids tend to do what their parents tell them not to do.  Telling a kid they can't go to church is likely to have them running to the pew when they rebel in their teenage years.

4)  Reading the bible and going to church armed with a skeptical background naturally creates atheist.

Wholeheartedly agree.

We are free thinkers with an free thinking child. We reject authority as a sound basis for beliefs. We do not interfere with our child's initiatives to search for truth. We would supervise attendance of obviously dangerous churches, such as snake handlers. Otherwise, we would not forbid it. To forbid our child to attend church would be hypocritical. But I admit this is easy for me to say because we suffer from an embarrassment of riches when it comes to church. We have several area free thinking churches and fellowships. We are welcomed and respected and have the society of like minded adults and children.

Quote from: "DropLogic"

Quote from: "Whitney"People who have written books and given talks on how to parent as an atheist tend to lean towards complete openness on religion including allowing the child to attend church.  I definately agree with this approach for many reasons:

1)  Do we as freethinkers want to restrict our children's freedom of thought?  I think not.  It is better to expose them to all information so that they too can come to an informed decision.  

2) We complain about religious parents not allowing their children to learn about other religions.  Why would we want to commit the same wrong?

3)  Kids tend to do what their parents tell them not to do.  Telling a kid they can't go to church is likely to have them running to the pew when they rebel in their teenage years.

4)  Reading the bible and going to church armed with a skeptical background naturally creates atheist.

Wholeheartedly agree.

Ditto! :hail:

I have a 7 year old.  We talk about religion sometimes and the afterlife a lot too since my dad died.  My son was told by a lot of people that his grandpa was in heaven and it was a difficult thing to deal with.  Who wants to tell their kid that heaven most likely isn't real?  That the promise of seeing your grandpa again probably isn't going to happen?  Sucked, but I when he asked me about it I told him what I thought, what Christians believe (since that was the story he was getting from others) and then I went over what some other cultures believed as well.  I told him he could believe or not believe anything he wanted, but that if he wanted to talk to me about god and religion, he needed to understand that my position on the whole thing was that it wasn't real and that I would challenge him on anything I didn't agree with.  He's taken me up on that a few times and it's been interesting.  I also make sure he knowns that there's no reason why he needs to even have any beliefs if he's not totally sure of them and that even if he's sure of something, he should question it because things that are true can handle being questioned and things that are false tend to fall apart under questioning.

At this point he seems to switch from being religious to not religious almost daily.  I just kind of go with it, always asking him questions.

If he asked me to take him to church I would, but I'm secretly dreading that day.  Church sucked for me as a kid because I just kind of went without getting it drilled into me that religion was true, so it was just long and boring and smelled weird.  Also, I myself was raised atheist so going to church, praying, all of that has always been alien to me.  Even having been exposed to it quite a bit as a kid, it always made me a little uncomfortable.  But, for the boy, that's a small price to pay to help him become a well rounded person.

I also make sure he knows that he doesn't have to believe the same thing as me, and that his belief or non belief isn't a point of pride/embarrassment to me.  It's a personal belief he needs to consider on his own - but that I'll always be there to answer any questions he might have.

I am rethinking my stance on this.  If my future child asked me if 2 + 2 = 5 or if a giant rabbit created the universe, I'd feel really stupid telling him he may be correct.

Quote from: "jduster"I am rethinking my stance on this.  If my future child asked me if 2 + 2 = 5 or if a giant rabbit created the universe, I'd feel really stupid telling him he may be correct.

That's why the atheist parents I know don't just tell their children what christianty teaches, but what religions around the world teach.  I know one atheist father who reads religious tales from around the world to his children as bedtime stories.  He found a book of them, but I'm sure with a bit of research online you could find plenty of them.

My three year old recently had the following conversation with her Dad;

Dad: Where does milk come from?
Kat: Cows
Dad: Where does butter come from?
Kat: Milk
Dad: Where does cheese come from?
Kat: Cheeses come from Bethlehem

Very funny - and we realised that it had come from nursery as they are doing the story in the build up to Christmas and we have never mentioned Jesus as a word before so she made a different association. At home Kat asks questions about how the world works - where food comes from, why can't she see the moon during the day etc shes naturally atheist. She even loves Doctor Who but she knows monsters aren't real. She doesn't accept that's the way it is, she wants to know why and how.

I'm actually really glad she's getting some grounding in different religions at nursery, the way they handle it is great - they are aware of all the family backgrounds and teach the children about all the different festivals in a neutral way. She came home with a lovely candle holder and card for Diwali recently.

The main thing we focus on at home is developing her critical thought and making her aware that actions have consequences that you have to take responsibility for. With that we hope to raise in a way that she can make her own decisions. They may not be the same as our own but at least we should be able to have a rational discussion about it.

My daughter is only 3 now but I plan to teach her to think critically and will encourage her to go to church events with her friends from school so she can see for herself what it's all about as well as encourage her to check out a wide variety of religions and philosophies so she can make up her own mind about. She'll already get exposed to some if it since she's got grandparents that are jewish and mormon as well as my mom who's baptist.

The religious stories don't worry us, and we play with our Xian neighbour's Noah's Ark.  We also read stories with gods in from around the world.
I sometimes struggle to explain Xian references out of context such as reading a dancing rhyme which rhymes seven with heaven, and my 5 year old asks me what heaven is.  I think I said it was a magical land in the sky.  But we haven't really discussed the idea that some people really, really believe it.

How can atheism be told?

Atheism doesn't teach anything. Just don't let your children to be victims of religious propaganda, teach them how to use their brain.

Quote from: Will on October 25, 2010, 07:13:53 PM
The only way to push atheism on someone is if they're already religious. No one is born religious, so a parent would only be maintaining their child's atheism.

One of the most important jobs as a parent is teaching your child how to tell fantasy from reality, teaching deductive reasoning, logic, science, and healthy skepticism. If the child learns these things, it's highly unlikely he or she will become religious.

Being a parent I've been asking myself this question of how to bring up atheisms without being like the religious preachers I so dislike and I do agree not bringing up religion and showing them fact from fiction will be the best way.

Quote from: Stev13jay on November 02, 2011, 09:11:23 AM

Quote from: Will on October 25, 2010, 07:13:53 PM
The only way to push atheism on someone is if they're already religious. No one is born religious, so a parent would only be maintaining their child's atheism.

One of the most important jobs as a parent is teaching your child how to tell fantasy from reality, teaching deductive reasoning, logic, science, and healthy skepticism. If the child learns these things, it's highly unlikely he or she will become religious.

Being a parent I've been asking myself this question of how to bring up atheisms without being like the religious preachers I so dislike and I do agree not bringing up religion and showing them fact from fiction will be the best way.

You don't need to bring up atheism or theism with your child. Just teach him to question and require evidence to support assertions. But most important of all don't be afraid to admit you don't know everything. Kid expect their parents to know everything, but it is perfectly acceptable, and in my opinion desirable, that you demonstrate you do not. For example kid asks 'What's the Sun Daddy?', you give your basic explanation. But later you dig out a book and discuss the Sun and how it works with him. This demonstrates that there is knowledge beyond the scope of his parents. Also  if your kid asks you about something you don't know or are unsure of you have the perfect answer now 'I don't know, lets find out together!'. This opens a brilliant opportunity for you to go on a voyage of discovery with your kid.

Does that help?

Quote from: Tank on November 02, 2011, 10:07:49 AM

Quote from: Stev13jay on November 02, 2011, 09:11:23 AM

Quote from: Will on October 25, 2010, 07:13:53 PM
The only way to push atheism on someone is if they're already religious. No one is born religious, so a parent would only be maintaining their child's atheism.

One of the most important jobs as a parent is teaching your child how to tell fantasy from reality, teaching deductive reasoning, logic, science, and healthy skepticism. If the child learns these things, it's highly unlikely he or she will become religious.

Being a parent I've been asking myself this question of how to bring up atheisms without being like the religious preachers I so dislike and I do agree not bringing up religion and showing them fact from fiction will be the best way.

You don't need to bring up atheism or theism with your child. Just teach him to question and require evidence to support assertions. But most important of all don't be afraid to admit you don't know everything. Kid expect their parents to know everything, but it is perfectly acceptable, and in my opinion desirable, that you demonstrate you do not. For example kid asks 'What's the Sun Daddy?', you give your basic explanation. But later you dig out a book and discuss the Sun and how it works with him. This demonstrates that there is knowledge beyond the scope of his parents. Also  if your kid asks you about something you don't know or are unsure of you have the perfect answer now 'I don't know, lets find out together!'. This opens a brilliant opportunity for you to go on a voyage of discovery with your kid.

Does that help?

This is such a good suggestion!

Quote from: Tank on November 02, 2011, 10:07:49 AM

Quote from: Stev13jay on November 02, 2011, 09:11:23 AM

Quote from: Will on October 25, 2010, 07:13:53 PM
The only way to push atheism on someone is if they're already religious. No one is born religious, so a parent would only be maintaining their child's atheism.

One of the most important jobs as a parent is teaching your child how to tell fantasy from reality, teaching deductive reasoning, logic, science, and healthy skepticism. If the child learns these things, it's highly unlikely he or she will become religious.

Being a parent I've been asking myself this question of how to bring up atheisms without being like the religious preachers I so dislike and I do agree not bringing up religion and showing them fact from fiction will be the best way.

You don't need to bring up atheism or theism with your child. Just teach him to question and require evidence to support assertions. But most important of all don't be afraid to admit you don't know everything. Kid expect their parents to know everything, but it is perfectly acceptable, and in my opinion desirable, that you demonstrate you do not. For example kid asks 'What's the Sun Daddy?', you give your basic explanation. But later you dig out a book and discuss the Sun and how it works with him. This demonstrates that there is knowledge beyond the scope of his parents. Also  if your kid asks you about something you don't know or are unsure of you have the perfect answer now 'I don't know, lets find out together!'. This opens a brilliant opportunity for you to go on a voyage of discovery with your kid.

Does that help?

This does help thank you

many have mentioned the correct approach of building critical thought honestly in the kids
also not excluding them from unavoidable society/ school norms

with death of relative, united with the air and trees worked for me, later on to be refined in to the truth of ever-recycling molecules in the troposphere. I contain trees, and great grandmothers and rotten leaves...

certainty , reassurance and self confidence in dealing with the unknown is what children need to see in the parent, so admitting the unknown is an essential step.

i am unfortunate enough to raise 9, 8 year olds in school where they had until recently compulsory religious orthodox doctrine, with a picture of jesus in classrooms
in the question what is this god, where is he? my child posed at me at the age of 7, naturally i gave her my oppinion. she agreed instantly and now she socialises carefree during those classes.

I am happy she pays attention in maths

but if you really want to push atheism in your kids, the protocol requires some exposure to blockhead churchgoers. Like a vaccine it benefits from a challenge with the bullshit bug

Yes.
It has been quite tricky to keep Santa a myth, particularly when everyone wants to preserve my children's precious belief in him.  We like Santa, we like presents, we like Christmas, but we know it's just a story.  And if other parents object to my three year old telling their three year olds that Santa is a story, then maybe they need to explain that different people believe different things, no bad thing.

I think it is important to give children good offers of comfort, community and conectivity so that they don't go seeking it at church.  Is a self awareness of wanting to inform one's children out of being suceptable to religious seduction pushing atheism?  Or I am just trying to parent them as best I can?

x
Willow.