I was thinking some of us might want to discuss the book as we go along (I know I do, once I get my thoughts collected) and I don't think there'll be any problem in returning to various topics once the people who want to discuss the book after they've finished start chiming in.
So here the discussion thread is, for anybody who wants to start.
I've gotten to chapter 5, and it's been depressingly re-confirmed that Sagan was the skeptical world's own prophet:
QuoteScience is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time -- when the United Stats is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.
Yep. I'm glad Carl didn't live to see Trump in the White House, it would have killed him.
A little further down the page he mentions the "celebration of ignorance" going on when he was writing this book, and I think it's gotten even worse since -- today it's broadened into not just a celebration of ignorance but of incompetence as well. So many TV shows (many from FOX, no surprise) feature as their most sympathetic and central character some one whose incompetence at life is so extreme I wonder how they avoided being Darwined out years ago. My TV is gathering dust and I think the day is getting close when I'll call up the cable company and tell them "you know what? forget it, I'll get my news from the radio and everything else from books". At least I'll save a few bucks.
Back to Candle in the Dark, I particularly enjoyed the discussion of the crop circle hoax in chapter 4 -- even tho the hoaxers behind it got bored, admitted to, and demonstrated their techniques for, creating crop circles back in the early 90s, there are still people who believe it was aliens and continue looking to the skies for farmyard pranksters.
There is just no end of credulity -- Sagan's take was that so many of us want "to be jolted out of our humdrum lives" and I can't disagree.
You are farther along in the book than I am Books. I transferred the document to my Nook, but when I went away last weekend to visit my daughter I forgot to bring it, I was so bummed out.
I'm really enjoying the book so far, currently getting into Chapter 3 "The Man on the Moon and the Face on Mars". The discussion of alien life on other planets, and humans increasing appetite for conspiracy theories and NASA cover-ups.
SOVIET SCIENTIST'S AMAZING CLAIM: RUINED
TEMPLES FOUND ON MARS. SPACE PROBE DISCOVERS
REMAINS OF 50,000-YEAR-OLD CIVILIZATION.
It is somewhat sad to realize that his comments in the quote you provided "Books" seem to becoming a reality. My daughter lives in a very touristy town, and one of the most popular stores in the center of town is called "Higher Awareness". It specializes in all types of spiritual woo and pseudo-science...(I admit they have good incense) so even if people are walking away from organized religion (The Nones) they are falling into some very deep spiritual practices based on zero science.
I'm still at chapter one :'(
I haven't started yet, I'm finishing another book and am quite busy. I should be able to get through it near the end of the month.
Quote from: Father Bruno on May 10, 2017, 03:29:40 PM
It specializes in all types of spiritual woo and pseudo-science...(I admit they have good incense) . ..
Yeah, I also go to the local occult shop for their incense. And their herbs -- I can get dried mint really cheap, which I use to keep bugs away from the mattress.
But I can understand the transition of some "nones" to a different kind of woo. I did the same thing after realizing there was no way Xtianity and I could ever fit -- at that point I was thinking I was just in the wrong woo, the realization that
no woo was going to fit didn't come to me for another 10 years. I hold out hope that it's just a "passing thru" phase for some of those interested in crystals and horoscopes now.
Quote from: Tom62 on May 10, 2017, 04:22:55 PM
I'm still at chapter one :'(
You're also still working full time, right? Whereas I'm in full 24 hr goof off mode.
Quote from: Davin on May 10, 2017, 09:33:00 PM
I haven't started yet, I'm finishing another book and am quite busy. I should be able to get through it near the end of the month.
I was trying to wait till I finished a biography of Shirley Jackson I'd started last month, but I'm still only halfway thru and her marriage is just depressing me so much that I had to put it aside for something more cheerful. I hate when that happens.
Managed to pick up a copy from my local library as I was struggling with the pdf version on my kindle.
*whispers* I have never read anything by Sagan before and have always felt like I should have by now so I'm looking forward to getting stuck into it.
Quote from: Claireliontamer on May 18, 2017, 08:17:48 PM
Managed to pick up a copy from my local library as I was struggling with the pdf version on my kindle.
*whispers* I have never read anything by Sagan before and have always felt like I should have by now so I'm looking forward to getting stuck into it.
I predict you'll be pleased.
It's not too spooky is it? Sounds spooky and I'm not sure if I'm up for that.
Quote from: jumbojak on May 19, 2017, 02:48:19 AM
It's not too spooky is it? Sounds spooky and I'm not sure if I'm up for that.
Only if you consider human frailty spooky (and some do).
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on May 19, 2017, 05:05:49 AM
Quote from: jumbojak on May 19, 2017, 02:48:19 AM
It's not too spooky is it? Sounds spooky and I'm not sure if I'm up for that.
Only if you consider human frailty spooky (and some do).
It's a tiny bit spooky JJ, enough that I've been leaving my reading light on all night :-[
Up to chp. 13, Obsessed with Reality, which should be right up my alley. I had forgotten how many chapters Sagan devoted to alien abductee claims, which don't interest me nearly as much now as they once did. But there is still that funny chapter which is nearly all excerpts from letters he'd received about his abductee views. Nearly as good as reading excerpts from the mail Shirley Jackson got about "The Lottery".
I particularly enjoyed chp 9,Therapy, which dealt mostly with the Satanic cult hysteria of the 80s. I still vividly remember following the McMartin pre-school case from beginning to end, and being horrified at all the innocent people who had their lives disrupted, their reputations ruined and were left bankrupt and, in some cases, jailed because one parent went off her meds, and so many people around her, including the police, were incredibly gullible.
Sagan quotes FBI special agent Kenneth Lanning (not about McMartin, but Satanic accusations in general):
"Within the personal religious belief of a law enforcement officer, Christianity may be good and Satanism evil. Under the Constitution however, both are neutral. This is an important, but difficult, concept for many law enforcement officers to accept. They are paid to uphold the Penal Code, not the Ten Commandments . . . The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don't like that statement but few can argue with it."
Certainly I'm not going to.
I'm only into the 2nd chapter, but found something in the first that stopped me for a moment. Sagan writes "Ghosts are something of a national obsession in Britain."
Maybe it's just the people I've associated with during my stays in the UK, but my take on it is that while the British may mention "Oh, there's supposedly a ghost," or "People say that's haunted" about this or that location, that is how they would put it. Not in such a way that they imply they believe there's a ghost, but rather mentioning an interesting cultural tidbit.
Still, according to one poll I found (https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/03/26/o-we-of-little-faith/), more British people believe in ghosts than in a creator god. :mysterious: :shrug: :sidesmile:
Quote from: Recusant on May 23, 2017, 10:18:10 AM
I'm only into the 2nd chapter, but found something in the first that stopped me for a moment. Sagan writes "Ghosts are something of a national obsession in Britain."
Maybe it's just the people I've associated with during my stays in the UK, but my take on it is that while the British may mention "Oh, there's supposedly a ghost," or "People say that's haunted" about this or that location, that is how they would put it. Not in such a way that they imply they believe there's a ghost, but rather mentioning an interesting cultural tidbit.
Still, according to one poll I found (https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/03/26/o-we-of-little-faith/), more British people believe in ghosts than in a creator god. :mysterious: :shrug: :sidesmile:
Ghosts are certainly part of our culture.
I'm a firm non believer though!
Only 10 more pages to go :)
Quote from: Tom62 on May 23, 2017, 08:32:56 PM
Only 10 more pages to go :)
I think you're definitely going to be the first to finish! It is quite a read.
Wow I really should have read that but I picked up other things for my health.
Carl Sagan is very gifted author. The Demon-Haunted World is well written and easy to read. However, I wouldn't read it a second time. Apart from some interesting anecdotes, there isn't much in the book that I didn't know before or are that is really relevant for me as a foreigner (like the alien abductions, the founding fathers of the USA or the bad shape of the American educational system). What I liked most was Carl Sagan's "baloney detection kit", which is a set of tools for skeptical thinking (like independent confirmation of facts, debate, development of different hypotheses, quantification, the use of Occam's razor, and the possibility of falsification). The message the book sends is very clear. The scientific method is good, the rest (religion, anti- and pseudo science) is "bad".
In general, I'd say that the book "preaches to the choir". Those people who should read it, are probably the ones who will not read it. All in all, I'd give it 3 out of 5 stars.
Quote from: Tom62 on May 25, 2017, 10:01:46 AM
In general, I'd say that the book "preaches to the choir". Those people who should read it, are probably the ones who will not read it. All in all, I'd give it 3 out of 5 stars.
Preaching to the choir seems to be a common problem from both sides of the aisle, and I'm not sure there's any way to avoid it even if you mean to. Sam Harris wrote "Letter to a Christian Nation" to speak directly to Xtians but honestly, I think most Xtians (at least those who try to use the law to force Xtian practices on others) would just turn their nose up at it the instant they saw his name.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on May 28, 2017, 03:08:51 AM
Quote from: Tom62 on May 25, 2017, 10:01:46 AM
In general, I'd say that the book "preaches to the choir". Those people who should read it, are probably the ones who will not read it. All in all, I'd give it 3 out of 5 stars.
Preaching to the choir seems to be a common problem from both sides of the aisle, and I'm not sure there's any way to avoid it even if you mean to. Sam Harris wrote "Letter to a Christian Nation" to speak directly to Xtians but honestly, I think most Xtians (at least those who try to use the law to force Xtian practices on others) would just turn their nose up at it the instant they saw his name.
That is absolutely true!
Speaking of preaching to the choir. I heard from a guy who I assume was a paleontologist, says that the aim of the "PR" work is to get the people on the fence to come to their side. I found that statement interesting because of some of the people here saying scientists are preaching to the choir. We might be getting tired of hearing the same old thing so maybe we are far enough to start getting involved and making our own things to say.
I was only able to get to 52% because of working on the house, moving in, and going to a ComiCon. But I'm going to finish it early next month.
I enjoy the book. I like his writing style because it's informative without sounding smug or overly condescending (as compared to like a Sam Harris book). I really like his perspective too, it's a bit different than my own and so it's interesting to read through it.
Quote from: Davin on May 30, 2017, 04:06:57 PM
I was only able to get to 52% because of working on the house, moving in, and going to a ComiCon. But I'm going to finish it early next month.
I enjoy the book. I like his writing style because it's informative without sounding smug or overly condescending (as compared to like a Sam Harris book). I really like his perspective too, it's a bit different than my own and so it's interesting to read through it.
I'm more like 80% because of long weekend, involving quite a bit of gardening, weeding, planting, fence repair and biking. By I agree with Davin I enjoy his reading style, it is certainly informative yet I don't feel like I'm being lectured to...more like I'm just sitting having a conversation.
Anyway have truly enjoyed it so far.
Quote from: Father Bruno on May 30, 2017, 08:23:04 PM
By I agree with Davin I enjoy his reading style, it is certainly informative yet I don't feel like I'm being lectured to...more like I'm just sitting having a conversation.
For me, this is one of the most enjoyable things about all of Sagan's books -- the sense of having a conversation with a really intelligent friend. And then there's the learning stuff, which is always thrilling.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on May 30, 2017, 10:36:51 PM
Quote from: Father Bruno on May 30, 2017, 08:23:04 PM
By I agree with Davin I enjoy his reading style, it is certainly informative yet I don't feel like I'm being lectured to...more like I'm just sitting having a conversation.
For me, this is one of the most enjoyable things about all of Sagan's books -- the sense of having a conversation with a really intelligent friend. And then there's the learning stuff, which is always thrilling.
I agree. Once I started reading the book, I just could not put it down.
Altho I was ahead at the beginning of the month, I fell slowly behind and only just finished it before midnight yesterday. I have no excuse at all, I just start goofing off and then don't stop.
There were two quotes towards the end of the book that I particularly liked:
"For 99 percent of the tenure of humans on earth, nobody could read or write. The great invention had not yet been made. Except for first hand experience, almost everything we knew was passed on by word of mouth. As in the children's game "Telephone", over tens and hundreds of generations, information would slowly be distorted and lost.
Books changed all that. Books, purchasable at low cost, permit us to interrogate the past with high accuracy; to tap the wisdom of our species, to understand the point of view of others, and not just those in power; to contemplate -- with the best teachers -- the insights, painfully extracted from Nature, of the greatest minds that ever were, drawn from the entire planet and from all of our history. They allow people long dead to talk inside our heads. Books can accompany us everywhere. Books are patient where we are slow to understand, allow us to go over the hard parts as many times as we wish, and are never critical of our lapses. Books are key to understanding the world and participating in a democratic society."
"The gears of poverty, ignorance, hopelessness, and low self-esteem mesh to create a kind of perpetual failure machine that grinds down dreams from generation to generation. We all bear the cost of keeping it running. Illiteracy is it linchpin.
Even if we hardened our hearts to the shame and misery experienced by the victims, the cost of illiteracy to everyone else is severe -- the cost in medical expenses and hospitalization, the cost in crime and prisons, the cost in special education, the cost in lost productivity and in potentially brilliant minds who could help solve the dilemmas besetting us.
Frederick Douglass taught that literacy is the path from slavery to freedom. There are many kinds of slavery and many kinds of freedom. But reading is still the path."
On to Ove.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on June 01, 2017, 11:21:47 PM
Altho I was ahead at the beginning of the month, I fell slowly behind and only just finished it before midnight yesterday. I have no excuse at all, I just start goofing off and then don't stop.
There were two quotes towards the end of the book that I particularly liked:
"For 99 percent of the tenure of humans on earth, nobody could read or write. The great invention had not yet been made. Except for first hand experience, almost everything we knew was passed on by word of mouth. As in the children's game "Telephone", over tens and hundreds of generations, information would slowly be distorted and lost.
Books changed all that. Books, purchasable at low cost, permit us to interrogate the past with high accuracy; to tap the wisdom of our species, to understand the point of view of others, and not just those in power; to contemplate -- with the best teachers -- the insights, painfully extracted from Nature, of the greatest minds that ever were, drawn from the entire planet and from all of our history. They allow people long dead to talk inside our heads. Books can accompany us everywhere. Books are patient where we are slow to understand, allow us to go over the hard parts as many times as we wish, and are never critical of our lapses. Books are key to understanding the world and participating in a democratic society."
"The gears of poverty, ignorance, hopelessness, and low self-esteem mesh to create a kind of perpetual failure machine that grinds down dreams from generation to generation. We all bear the cost of keeping it running. Illiteracy is it linchpin.
Even if we hardened our hearts to the shame and misery experienced by the victims, the cost of illiteracy to everyone else is severe -- the cost in medical expenses and hospitalization, the cost in crime and prisons, the cost in special education, the cost in lost productivity and in potentially brilliant minds who could help solve the dilemmas besetting us.
Frederick Douglass taught that literacy is the path from slavery to freedom. There are many kinds of slavery and many kinds of freedom. But reading is still the path."
On to Ove.
Hey Books, I read this book on my Nook and hi-lighted practically the exact same passages...and when i read these, even here in your thread I can hear his voice,... calm, distinct, yet firm with conviction.
As JoeActor mentioned in another thread we not only miss the mind and voice of Carl Sagan, but desperately need someone to fill the void he's left behind...with that said you wonder what he would have said today in light of Trump's decision to pull the US from the Paris Accord? (Not that Trump or his supporters would listen to reason or even someone like Mr. Sagan, in fact Republican Congressman Tim Walberg said that
"God will address climate change if it is real and that humans can do nothing to help the planet". (//http://) We are Demon-Haunted indeed!
I enjoyed this book quite a bit and liked its spirited defense of science, reads almost like a manifesto for clear and disciplined thought.
Quote from: Father Bruno on June 02, 2017, 07:34:28 PM
As JoeActor mentioned in another thread we not only miss the mind and voice of Carl Sagan, but desperately need someone to fill the void he's left behind...with that said you wonder what he would have said today in light of Trump's decision to pull the US from the Paris Accord?
Considering what he said back in the 80s and 90s about saving the environment, I think 45's reign would have killed him. It's amazing how prophetic Sagan was about the dumbing down of America.