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General => Politics => Topic started by: xSilverPhinx on November 09, 2016, 05:15:59 PM

Title: Help me understand...
Post by: xSilverPhinx on November 09, 2016, 05:15:59 PM
...the Trump voter. Having overcome my initial shock, I'm fascinated by what just happened in the US. :news:

Any good and insightful articles online which elucidate sociological or psychological conditions that would cause so many people to vote for Trump?   

Quote
Most journalists ensconced in their New York or Washington offices refused to accept that someone as louche and crass as Trump could appeal to voters. Trump supporters, in many of their minds, were simply dumb or racist, overshadowing any notion that these voters might also have some valid concerns.

From: What I learned after 100,000 miles on the road talking to Trump supporters (The Guardian) (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/03/trump-supporters-us-elections?CMP=share_btn_tw).

The article goes on to talk about a few of the concerns that affect white blue collar workers who have little education and prospects, living in predominantly rural areas. Trump plays on their disillusions and fears and gets a hell of a lot of votes. Ultimately, it makes sense that they would vote for someone like him. 

Could the fact that the alternative, Hillary, is a woman also contribute to her downfall among these people? I'd assume that the prevailing mentality in poorer areas is a more backward and conservative one.

...Trump. Supporters don't seem at all concerned that he has no experience governing a nation. Instead of gaining any by becoming mayor or whatever, the raging narcissist aimed straight for the White House.

I just find it funny that when teams choose their project managers in The Apprentice series, they generally opt for the one with higher expertise. It's common sense that this tactic increases their chances of winning the task. Why then, does Donald Trump, with no experience or expertise, think he'll make a good leader? 

Dunning and Kruger have some interesting research which showed that people who are not skilled in a field (be it leadership, knowledge of a subject, among others) will lack the meta-cognitive insight to correctly assess their own skill level relative to others. Those who are highly competent will tend to underestimate their skill level relative to others at first. The thing is, I don't think Trump even knows that he is inexperienced. I can't fathom how people would place their trust in him...I doubt he will take advice from other, more knowledgeable advisers as he just seems the type to want to do things his way, and woe to anyone who becomes an obstacle. The arrogance he exudes without merit is just amazing.   

Unfortunately for Hillary Clinton, she doesn't give off as much of the confident vibe that Trump does, which could also have swayed votes in his favour. The least experienced and possibly the least capable of the two seems to be the most confident, which is consistent with the Dunning-Kruger Effect. Confidence, it seems, trumps competence/experience/knowledge.

~-~

Dunning-Kruger Effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect).

Here's (http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.64.2655&rep=rep1&type=pdf) the full Dunning-Kruger paper in case anyone's interested: Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own
Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments.

   
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Arturo on November 09, 2016, 05:48:05 PM
I think most people don't want to hear the truth. I'm amazed by the amount of rejection and dismissiveness I received when talking about Donald Duck's obvious flaws. I even heard someone call them "assumptions" and when I corrected them it went to "well that's your opinion". THESE ARE F***ING FACTS! It doesn't take a genius to figure out the man is a racist, misogynist, man child.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: xSilverPhinx on November 09, 2016, 06:31:49 PM
Another funny thing about this whole process is that a lot of people seem to believe that Trump is an honest man, even if he doesn't measure his words publicly. It's all very odd.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Arturo on November 09, 2016, 06:48:13 PM
I sometimes wonder if we are all watching the same man. That some how it's we've been looking at a different person all together than the thing that was voted in. Can things even get voted in? I guess they can.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 07:20:55 PM
I can tell you exactly why I voted for him, if you like.

BUT, I will not get into a pissing match about it.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: xSilverPhinx on November 09, 2016, 07:21:52 PM
I can tell you exactly why I voted for him, if you like.

I am curious to hear it.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Asmodean on November 09, 2016, 07:24:41 PM
I wouldn't mind reading that too, actually. I'm a bit... Bemused, you might say, by the very possibility of what just occurred, even though I did see it as a real possibility for quite some time.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 07:27:12 PM
In no order, a couple off the top of my head.
2nd amendment.
Potential supreme court appointees.
Immigration.
Trade.
Eliminate Obama care.
Welfare reform

Those are a few undeniable drastic differences from Hillary.
I'm not without concerns. Foreign policy is a big question mark.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Asmodean on November 09, 2016, 07:31:20 PM
At the risk of starting another gun debate, was not the second amendment designed to protect the public from the government or some such?

Assuming the army is with the government (or there really is little point, no?), what chance does a rabble of rednecks with guns stand against a few thousand Tomahawk cruise missile?
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: xSilverPhinx on November 09, 2016, 07:38:40 PM
In no order, a couple off the top of my head.
2nd amendment.
Potential supreme court appointees.
Immigration.
Trade.
Eliminate Obama care.
Welfare reform

Those are a few undeniable drastic differences from Hillary.
I'm not without concerns. Foreign policy is a big question mark.

Ok, and do you see Trump as someone who can pull it off?
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 07:46:54 PM
In no order, a couple off the top of my head.
2nd amendment.
Potential supreme court appointees.
Immigration.
Trade.
Eliminate Obama care.
Welfare reform

Those are a few undeniable drastic differences from Hillary.
I'm not without concerns. Foreign policy is a big question mark.

Ok, and do you see Trump as someone who can pull it off?

Maybe. I didn't have any other options though, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 07:51:15 PM
At the risk of starting another gun debate, was not the second amendment designed to protect the public from the government or some such?

Assuming the army is with the government (or there really is little point, no?), what chance does a rabble of rednecks with guns stand against a few thousand Tomahawk cruise missile?

First off, all gun owners in the US aren't "rednecks".
It wouldn't come to that anyway IMO. Soldiers turning against the people? No chance, at least not from the ones I know, and their buddies.
I don't think cruise missiles would have much effect, unless you are willing to nuke your whole country.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Asmodean on November 09, 2016, 07:59:55 PM
Syria..?

So if not for that, why is the second amendment worth protecting? Is there anything more to it than legislating taste?
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 08:08:44 PM
Because shooting is fun, and I believe I should have the right to defend myself and family.
I'm not a tin foil hat guy, so for me it's not about defending myself against the gov. Not gonna happen.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Asmodean on November 09, 2016, 08:31:32 PM
Because shooting is fun, and I believe I should have the right to defend myself and family.
Don't need a gun for that last one, and the first one is about legislating taste. How does the second amendment figure into either, because having read it now, I don't see it;

Quote
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Where does fun or protection of family figure into that? Also, it does state "a well-regulated militia." Beyond the a, do the American gun owners fit either of those words in quotation marks?
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 09:02:31 PM
So you're saying the 2nd only applies to protecting the state? I shouldn't be able to use said firearm for pleasure as well? What about hunting?
Defending my family?
Id rather be equally armed against a hinge intruder, or armed robber. The typically don't use rocks or bats.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 09:03:47 PM
After reading my post, it kind of comes off as me being a smart ass.
I didn't mean it to Asmo.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Dave on November 09, 2016, 09:48:58 PM
At the risk of starting another gun debate, was not the second amendment designed to protect the public from the government or some such?

Assuming the army is with the government (or there really is little point, no?), what chance does a rabble of rednecks with guns stand against a few thousand Tomahawk cruise missile?

First off, all gun owners in the US aren't "rednecks".
It wouldn't come to that anyway IMO. Soldiers turning against the people? No chance, at least not from the ones I know, and their buddies.
I don't think cruise missiles would have much effect, unless you are willing to nuke your whole country.

I would to just mention the National Guard at Kent State.

With merely the possibility of guns being around there is always danger from all sides getting finger twitchy.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Dave on November 09, 2016, 09:54:22 PM
So you're saying the 2nd only applies to protecting the state? I shouldn't be able to use said firearm for pleasure as well? What about hunting?
Defending my family?
Id rather be equally armed against a hinge intruder, or armed robber. The typically don't use rocks or bats.

Defending your family from those who have guns to commit crime because guns are comparatively easy to come by?

Or defending your family against neighbours with guns who are defending their family against neighbours with guns . . . . . . . . .
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on November 09, 2016, 10:01:31 PM
There was a general rage against the established order of things.  Hillary represented that, and Trump was the anti-politician.  Therefore, even for all his flaws, people gave him a chance.  Not me, mind you, but over 47% of the populace.  Furthermore, in the past 8 years we have seen big banks being bailed out while the economic system has generally profited no one but the upper 1%.  In addition, for many there is the perception that the character of the nation is changing due to uncontrolled immigration.  Trade deals are sending jobs overseas and not benefitting Americans.  And finally, Hillary called 1/2 of Trump's supporters "deplorable", and her constant e-mail issues undermined trust in her.  I still voted for her because I saw her as better than Trump, but about the same number of people saw it the opposite way.  Hillary, I think, may still win the popular vote, but the Electoral College didn't end up in her favor.  So, there are a lot of folks who just wanted to drain the swamp of Washington, and she was part of the swamp. 

I voted for her, but I understand why many don't like her.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 11:10:09 PM
There was a general rage against the established order of things.  Hillary represented that, and Trump was the anti-politician.  Therefore, even for all his flaws, people gave him a chance.  Not me, mind you, but over 47% of the populace.  Furthermore, in the past 8 years we have seen big banks being bailed out while the economic system has generally profited no one but the upper 1%.  In addition, for many there is the perception that the character of the nation is changing due to uncontrolled immigration.  Trade deals are sending jobs overseas and not benefitting Americans.  And finally, Hillary called 1/2 of Trump's supporters "deplorable", and her constant e-mail issues undermined trust in her.  I still voted for her because I saw her as better than Trump, but about the same number of people saw it the opposite way.  Hillary, I think, may still win the popular vote, but the Electoral College didn't end up in her favor.  So, there are a lot of folks who just wanted to drain the swamp of Washington, and she was part of the swamp. 

I voted for her, but I understand why many don't like her.

Much respect to you Bruce. You get it.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 11:11:24 PM
So you're saying the 2nd only applies to protecting the state? I shouldn't be able to use said firearm for pleasure as well? What about hunting?
Defending my family?
Id rather be equally armed against a hinge intruder, or armed robber. The typically don't use rocks or bats.

Defending your family from those who have guns to commit crime because guns are comparatively easy to come by?

Or defending your family against neighbours with guns who are defending their family against neighbours with guns . . . . . . . . .

The first part, yes. The second, I'm not following you.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: xSilverPhinx on November 10, 2016, 01:18:15 AM
There was a general rage against the established order of things.  Hillary represented that, and Trump was the anti-politician.  Therefore, even for all his flaws, people gave him a chance.  Not me, mind you, but over 47% of the populace.  Furthermore, in the past 8 years we have seen big banks being bailed out while the economic system has generally profited no one but the upper 1%.  In addition, for many there is the perception that the character of the nation is changing due to uncontrolled immigration.  Trade deals are sending jobs overseas and not benefitting Americans.  And finally, Hillary called 1/2 of Trump's supporters "deplorable", and her constant e-mail issues undermined trust in her.  I still voted for her because I saw her as better than Trump, but about the same number of people saw it the opposite way.  Hillary, I think, may still win the popular vote, but the Electoral College didn't end up in her favor.  So, there are a lot of folks who just wanted to drain the swamp of Washington, and she was part of the swamp. 

I voted for her, but I understand why many don't like her.

Thanks, Bruce. That makes sense.

What doesn't make sense to me is how someone can win the popular vote and not be President, but that's because our systems are so different.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on November 10, 2016, 02:03:36 AM
There was a general rage against the established order of things.  Hillary represented that, and Trump was the anti-politician.  Therefore, even for all his flaws, people gave him a chance.  Not me, mind you, but over 47% of the populace.  Furthermore, in the past 8 years we have seen big banks being bailed out while the economic system has generally profited no one but the upper 1%.  In addition, for many there is the perception that the character of the nation is changing due to uncontrolled immigration.  Trade deals are sending jobs overseas and not benefitting Americans.  And finally, Hillary called 1/2 of Trump's supporters "deplorable", and her constant e-mail issues undermined trust in her.  I still voted for her because I saw her as better than Trump, but about the same number of people saw it the opposite way.  Hillary, I think, may still win the popular vote, but the Electoral College didn't end up in her favor.  So, there are a lot of folks who just wanted to drain the swamp of Washington, and she was part of the swamp. 

I voted for her, but I understand why many don't like her.

Thanks, Bruce. That makes sense.

What doesn't make sense to me is how someone can win the popular vote and not be President, but that's because our systems are so different.

Well, that's the Electoral College system that we've had since the beginning.  It was a result of a compromise between those who wanted stronger states rights and those who tended toward pure national democracy.  It's just part of our history.  I'm fine if the nation wants to dump the EC and go to pure democracy.  But that's where we are now.  Every nation has its cultural quirks, and this is one of ours.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Arturo on November 10, 2016, 02:11:43 AM
There was a general rage against the established order of things.  Hillary represented that, and Trump was the anti-politician.  Therefore, even for all his flaws, people gave him a chance.  Not me, mind you, but over 47% of the populace.  Furthermore, in the past 8 years we have seen big banks being bailed out while the economic system has generally profited no one but the upper 1%.  In addition, for many there is the perception that the character of the nation is changing due to uncontrolled immigration.  Trade deals are sending jobs overseas and not benefitting Americans.  And finally, Hillary called 1/2 of Trump's supporters "deplorable", and her constant e-mail issues undermined trust in her.  I still voted for her because I saw her as better than Trump, but about the same number of people saw it the opposite way.  Hillary, I think, may still win the popular vote, but the Electoral College didn't end up in her favor.  So, there are a lot of folks who just wanted to drain the swamp of Washington, and she was part of the swamp. 

I voted for her, but I understand why many don't like her.

Thanks, Bruce. That makes sense.

What doesn't make sense to me is how someone can win the popular vote and not be President, but that's because our systems are so different.

We have thus stupid thing called the electoral college. Basically it's the district get colored towards one candidate based on the popular vote in that district. Then who ever wins the most districts becomes president.

The problem though is that it's more symbolic than accurate and that is most people's issue with the system.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Recusant on November 10, 2016, 03:23:51 AM
An interview with a sociologist who spent time learning who the Trump voters are, and why they vote the way they do: "What a liberal sociologist learned from spending five years in Trump's America" | Vox (http://www.vox.com/2016/9/6/12803636/arlie-hochschild-strangers-land-louisiana-trump)
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Recusant on November 10, 2016, 03:24:52 PM
More on Trump voters from Vox, some of which conflicts with the story above: "Taking Trump voters’ concerns seriously means listening to what they’re actually saying" (http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/10/15/13286498/donald-trump-voters-race-economic-anxiety)

Quote
The press has gotten extremely comfortable with describing a Trump electorate that simply doesn’t exist. Cottle describes his supporters as “white voters living on the edges of the economy.” This is, in nearly every particular, wrong.

There is absolutely no evidence that Trump’s supporters, either in the primary or the general election, are disproportionately poor or working class. Exit polling from the primaries found that Trump voters made about as much as Ted Cruz voters, and significantly more than supporters of either Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders. Trump voters, FiveThirtyEight's Nate Silver found (http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-mythology-of-trumps-working-class-support/), had a median household income of $72,000, a fair bit higher than the $62,000 median household income for non-Hispanic whites in America.

A major study from Gallup's Jonathan Rothwell (http://www.vox.com/2016/8/12/12454250/donald-trump-gallup-trade-immigration-study) confirmed this. Trump support was correlated with higher, not lower, income, both among the population as a whole and among white people. Trump supporters were less likely to be unemployed or to have dropped out of the labor force. Areas with more manufacturing, or higher exposure to imports from China, were less likely to think favorably of Trump.

[Continues . . . (http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/10/15/13286498/donald-trump-voters-race-economic-anxiety)]

The story doesn't paint a pretty picture.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Guardian85 on November 10, 2016, 04:13:08 PM
Because shooting is fun, and I believe I should have the right to defend myself and family.

I am a sport shooter in Norway. We have fairly strict gun control, but law abiding citizens can still get their hands on a decent variety of firearms. I currently own several myself.
What I am getting at is that there is a middle way between banning guns completely and having an unrestricted free-for-all like 2nd Amendment Americans seem to want.

Somehow I don't think Trump is going to be that nuanced about it.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Davin on November 10, 2016, 04:30:24 PM
Because shooting is fun, and I believe I should have the right to defend myself and family.

I am a sport shooter in Norway. We have fairly strict gun control, but law abiding citizens can still get their hands on a decent variety of firearms. I currently own several myself.
What I am getting at is that there is a middle way between banning guns completely and having an unrestricted free-for-all like 2nd Amendment Americans seem to want.

Somehow I don't think Trump is going to be that nuanced about it.
The people voting against any 2nd amendment... amendments, are in a large part manipulated through fear tactics, outright lies, and misrepresentations. In larger part, when you talk to them, most of them are reasonable people who also don't want criminals to have guns, and a majority of them support common sense gun regulations... as long as you call it something other than "gun control" and avoid the word "regulation." Which is silly and scary that people's rationality is so easily bypassed by simple manipulation tactics.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Asmodean on November 10, 2016, 05:07:21 PM
After reading my post, it kind of comes off as me being a smart ass.
I didn't mean it to Asmo.
Not a problem at all. Unlike some other well-known orange things, such as... The Sun for example, Asmos are not easily riled by such.  ;)
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Dave on November 10, 2016, 05:18:59 PM
There was a general rage against the established order of things.  Hillary represented that, and Trump was the anti-politician.  Therefore, even for all his flaws, people gave him a chance.  Not me, mind you, but over 47% of the populace.  Furthermore, in the past 8 years we have seen big banks being bailed out while the economic system has generally profited no one but the upper 1%.  In addition, for many there is the perception that the character of the nation is changing due to uncontrolled immigration.  Trade deals are sending jobs overseas and not benefitting Americans.  And finally, Hillary called 1/2 of Trump's supporters "deplorable", and her constant e-mail issues undermined trust in her.  I still voted for her because I saw her as better than Trump, but about the same number of people saw it the opposite way.  Hillary, I think, may still win the popular vote, but the Electoral College didn't end up in her favor.  So, there are a lot of folks who just wanted to drain the swamp of Washington, and she was part of the swamp. 

I voted for her, but I understand why many don't like her.

Yup, I can go with that as well!

I am anti-political, anti-sycophant, anti-cronyism  and pro professionalism, pragmatism, practicality; national interest over that of  personal, class or party . . .

I would vote like a shot for anyone who can break the centuries old corrupt system and provide something fairer.

We have to give him a chance but, from his life behaviour and performance so far, I cannot see Trump delivering much that will advantage the currently dis-advantaged in American society.

As has been said elsewhere, the only "checks and balances" Trump understands are posdibly those that relate to his bank accounts.
 And with Pence as his VP can you expect a much more intense intervention in your rights from the church?

I can understand why the Canadian immigration website has crashed from too much traffic.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: xSilverPhinx on November 10, 2016, 05:29:27 PM
Thanks, Recusant. That second story is quite an eye-opener. Your new president is a demagogue then, who led the sheep to where he needed them.

Scary that this seems to be a phenomenon that's occurring in many parts of the western world, these kinds of economic and racial anxieties are not restricted to the US.   
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Dave on November 10, 2016, 06:42:22 PM
Thanks, Recusant. That second story is quite an eye-opener. Your new president is a demagogue then, who led the sheep to where he needed them.

Scary that this seems to be a phenomenon that's occurring in many parts of the western world, these kinds of economic and racial anxieties are not restricted to the US.   

If your second sentence is a question: surely, about a year ago,  after Trump made the decusion to stand and - assuming he ever did - decided on his policies and campaign tone, his first soeech made ears prick and people listen. Those who liked his ideas told friends etc - his "flock" were largely self-selecting.  By British perceptions American campaign often seem "mobbish", loud and almost on the edge of violent action. Trump's audience's seemed, to me perception, closer to the violent edge than usual even for America with more swearing than at other rallies. But, swearing is also a "national" thing with Americans more liable to use far more gratuitous swearing in everyday speech than most people I have heard in Britain. Thus bears out in the posts from American members of The Thinking Atheist forum, though those from other countries tend to pick up the habit after a few weeks' membership.

But, is that personal/national perception that can lead one astray. It can be dangerous to compare foreign crowd behaviour with those of one's home.  Here I would only expect that sort of apparent crowd demeanour at a British Nationalist Party rally. But did the media give us a true picture?

As I have got older I do find that I have lost some of my "local" objectivity but seem to have retained some confidence in my intuitive analytical abilities in the wider picture.

I am somewhat concerned, both for America and the global situation since America still has the number one economy and the number one sized/equipped armed forces. For the moment.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: xSilverPhinx on November 10, 2016, 08:19:35 PM
I am somewhat concerned, both for America and the global situation since America still has the number one economy and the number one sized/equipped armed forces. For the moment.

Yeah, me too.

"In the last two days, they had so little confidence in his self-control they said we are just going to take away your Twitter. Now, if somebody can't handle a Twitter account, they can't handle the nuclear codes."

"If somebody starts tweeting at three in the morning because SNL made fun of you, then you can't handle the nuclear codes."

Barack Obama is right. Trump just isn't mentally equipped to be POTUS.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: xSilverPhinx on November 10, 2016, 09:48:50 PM
Here's something on the hyper-polarization of America (Scientific American). (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/the-hyper-polarization-of-america/)

Quote
This hyperpolarization did not begin with Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump. It has been building for years.

Quote
The Democratic Party is best described as a collection of group interests and the Republican Party is unified by ideology. This finding may be either the cause of or the product of a phenomenon my research has shown in study after study. Over and over, Republican voters behave in more partisan ways than do their Democratic counterparts. They identify more strongly with their party. They show more bias in interpreting new information. They engage in more boosting of their party (and derogation of the other). And, they are more likely to select out of receiving messages from the other side.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Dave on November 10, 2016, 10:28:10 PM
I am somewhat concerned, both for America and the global situation since America still has the number one economy and the number one sized/equipped armed forces. For the moment.

Yeah, me too.

"In the last two days, they had so little confidence in his self-control they said we are just going to take away your Twitter. Now, if somebody can't handle a Twitter account, they can't handle the nuclear codes."

"If somebody starts tweeting at three in the morning because SNL made fun of you, then you can't handle the nuclear codes."

Barack Obama is right. Trump just isn't mentally equipped to be POTUS.

Hearing his words after the meeting with Obama I thought back onto Ttump's tone shift just before and after the election and then after today's meeting - more subdued is one description.

Could it be that Mr Trump had suddenly realised he might win, then had won and has now come to realise that he has a new, 24/7/365 x 4, job with hundreds of aspects of which he has little or no knowledge or experience - where he will be soooo dependent on advice from his cabinet?  People he has partly picked for their support in his campaign it seems. Good qualifications?

I would lay odds on his first thought, on passing the magic 270, was, "Oh, shit, what have I done?"
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Steeler on November 10, 2016, 10:45:41 PM
I am somewhat concerned, both for America and the global situation since America still has the number one economy and the number one sized/equipped armed forces. For the moment.

Yeah, me too.

"In the last two days, they had so little confidence in his self-control they said we are just going to take away your Twitter. Now, if somebody can't handle a Twitter account, they can't handle the nuclear codes."

"If somebody starts tweeting at three in the morning because SNL made fun of you, then you can't handle the nuclear codes."

Barack Obama is right. Trump just isn't mentally equipped to be POTUS.

Hearing his words after the meeting with Obama I thought back onto Ttump's tone shift just before and after the election and then after today's meeting - more subdued is one description.

Could it be that Mr Trump had suddenly realised he might win, then had won and has now come to realise that he has a new, 24/7/365 x 4, job with hundreds of aspects of which he has little or no knowledge or experience - where he will be soooo dependent on advice from his cabinet?  People he has partly picked for their support in his campaign it seems. Good qualifications?

I would lay odds on his first thought, on passing the magic 270, was, "Oh, shit, what have I done?"

Totally agree. I don't think he thought he'd win in a million years. I think it was just a publicity stunt. Then shit got real.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: xSilverPhinx on November 10, 2016, 11:33:23 PM
:notsure: I don't know, if I had to guess, I'd say he's fully aware of what he's done. The impression I get is that he looks and talks like a buffoon, is a walking talking joke and a pathological narcissist but it's clear he knew what he was doing. He alienated a lot of people but apparently tapped into what a huge segment of the population wanted.

I question whether he's capable of being a president but he sure knows how to herd people. 

The polling companies, the media and a huge portion of the american population underestimated the man, now the nightmare's come true.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on November 10, 2016, 11:53:36 PM
:notsure: I don't know, if I had to guess, I'd say he's fully aware of what he's done. The impression I get is that he looks and talks like a buffoon, is a walking talking joke and a pathological narcissist but it's clear he knew what he was doing. He alienated a lot of people but apparently tapped into what a huge segment of the population wanted.

I question whether he's capable of being a president but he sure knows how to herd people. 

The polling companies, the media and a huge portion of the american population underestimated the man, now the nightmare's come true.

Yes, he was vastly underestimated.  He saw and heard something in the country that no other candidate saw, and took advantage of it.  I hope some of that talent can be channeled for good, but I have my doubts.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Fireball on November 11, 2016, 12:13:13 AM
I think that if any other candidate saw it, they wouldn't have touched it with a ten foot pole. What rational person would? Chump seems to have tried to destroy his own campaign with all the insane behavior, but wasn't able to do it.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Steeler on November 11, 2016, 02:10:19 AM
I think that if any other candidate saw it, they wouldn't have touched it with a ten foot pole. What rational person would? Chump seems to have tried to destroy his own campaign with all the insane behavior, but wasn't able to do it.

Yes. And early on, he just didn't seem to care if he won or not.
I think he could have done a much better job with his campaign as far as presenting himself as a calm, rational caring person. I didn't see a single tv ad for him that was paid for by him. The only ones I saw were paid for by the NRA, and those were 2a targeted. Maybe it was a regional thing. I do live in Indiana which was never in doubt with Pence on the ticket.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Steeler on November 11, 2016, 02:40:14 AM
I think this was a really good read, I copied it from Mike Rowe on Facebook.

Off The Wall

Hey Mike. You’ve been very quiet. Everything OK? I just wanted you to know that I voted for you. I was also hoping you might explain what the hell happened on Tuesday, and say something to make me feel better about my fellow man. Thanks,
Carol Savoy

Hi Carol

Last Friday, my dog posted a video that featured a man licking a cat with the aid of a device that’s designed for the specific purpose of making it easier for people to lick their cats.I’ve been silent ever since, because frankly, I couldn’t think of a better way – metaphorical or otherwise - to express my feelings about this election cycle. The entire country it seems, has been preoccupied with finding a way to lick a cat without actually putting their tongue on it.
 
Too oblique? Too weird? Ok, how about this analysis:
 
Back in 2003, a very unusual TV pilot called Dirty Jobs, Forrest-Gumped its way onto The Discovery Channel and found an audience – a big one. For Discovery, this was a problem. You see, Dirty Jobs didn’t look like anything else on their channel. It wasn’t pretty or careful. It took place in sewers and septic tanks, and featured a subversive host in close contact with his 8-year old inner child who refused to do second takes. Everyone agreed that Dirty Jobs was totally “off-brand” and completely inappropriate for Discovery. Everyone but the viewers. The ratings were just too big to ignore, so the pilot got a green-light, and yours truly finally got a steady gig.

But here's the thing - Dirty Jobs didn’t resonate because the host was incredibly charming. It wasn’t a hit because it was gross, or irreverent, or funny, or silly, or smart, or terribly clever. Dirty Jobs succeeded because it was authentic. It spoke directly and candidly to a big chunk of the country that non-fiction networks had been completely ignoring. In a very simple way, Dirty Jobs said “Hey - we can see you,” to millions of regular people who had started to feel invisible. Ultimately, that’s why Dirty Jobs ran for eight seasons. And today, that’s also why Donald Trump is the President of the United States.

I know people are freaked out, Carol. I get it. I’m worried too. But not because of who we elected. We've survived 44 Presidents, and we'll survive this one too. I’m worried because millions of people now seem to believe that Trump supporters are racist, xenophobic, and uneducated misogynists. I'm worried because despising our candidates publicly is very different than despising the people who vote for them.

Last week, three old friends – people I’ve known for years - each requested to be “unfriended” by anyone who planned on voting for Trump. Honestly, that was disheartening. Who tosses away a friendship over an election? Are my friends turning into those mind-numbingly arrogant celebrities who threaten to move to another country if their candidate doesn’t win? Are my friends now convinced that people they’ve known for years who happen to disagree with them politically are not merely mistaken – but evil, and no longer worthy of their friendship?

For what it’s worth, Carol, I don’t think Donald Trump won by tapping into America’s “racist underbelly,” and I don’t think Hillary lost because she’s a woman. I think a majority of people who voted in this election did so in spite of their many misgivings about the character of both candidates. That’s why it’s very dangerous to argue that Clinton supporters condone lying under oath and obstructing justice. Just as it’s equally dangerous to suggest a Trump supporter condones gross generalizations about foreigners and women.

These two candidates were the choices we gave ourselves, and each came with a heaping helping of vulgarity and impropriety. Yeah, it was dirty job for sure, but the winner was NOT decided by a racist and craven nation – it was decided by millions of disgusted Americans desperate for real change. The people did not want a politician. The people wanted to be seen. Donald Trump convinced those people that he could see them. Hillary Clinton did not.

As for me, I’m flattered by your support, but grateful that your vote was not enough to push me over the top. However, when the dust settles, and The White House gets a new tenant, I’ll make the same offer to President Trump that I did to President Obama – to assist as best I can in any attempt to reinvigorate the skilled trades, and shine a light on millions of good jobs that no one seems excited about pursuing. http://bit.ly/2fG1SxI

Like those 3 million “shovel ready” jobs we heard so much about eight years ago, the kind of recovery that Donald Trump is promising will require a workforce that’s properly trained and sufficiently enthused about the opportunities at hand. At the moment, we do not have that work force in place. What we do have, are tens of millions of capable people who have simply stopped looking for work, and millions of available jobs that no one aspires to do. That's the skills gap, and it's gotta close. If mikeroweWORKS can help, we're standing by.

If not, I suppose we'll just have to find another way to lick the cat.

Mike
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: xSilverPhinx on November 11, 2016, 06:34:02 AM
Thanks, Steeler.

I have a couple of questions, if you don't mind -- do you think that Trump is authentic? If yes, why?
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Steeler on November 11, 2016, 01:19:08 PM
Thanks, Steeler.

I have a couple of questions, if you don't mind -- do you think that Trump is authentic? If yes, why?

To be honest, I struggle to put a finger on him. When he's not saying something off the wall, if like to think that the down to earth version is authentic.
But when he says the crazy shit he has a tendency to say, all I can do is shake my head and wonder Wtf.

We will find out soon enough I suppose.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Asmodean on November 11, 2016, 01:58:30 PM
I see some British media are already plotting the US electoral college revolt...

...Not going to happen, methink.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Tank on November 11, 2016, 10:31:18 PM
:notsure: I don't know, if I had to guess, I'd say he's fully aware of what he's done. The impression I get is that he looks and talks like a buffoon, is a walking talking joke and a pathological narcissist but it's clear he knew what he was doing. He alienated a lot of people but apparently tapped into what a huge segment of the population wanted.

I question whether he's capable of being a president but he sure knows how to herd people. 

The polling companies, the media and a huge portion of the american population underestimated the man, now the nightmare's come true.

Did they underestimate him or overestimate the American public?
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on November 12, 2016, 01:01:11 AM
:notsure: I don't know, if I had to guess, I'd say he's fully aware of what he's done. The impression I get is that he looks and talks like a buffoon, is a walking talking joke and a pathological narcissist but it's clear he knew what he was doing. He alienated a lot of people but apparently tapped into what a huge segment of the population wanted.

I question whether he's capable of being a president but he sure knows how to herd people. 

The polling companies, the media and a huge portion of the american population underestimated the man, now the nightmare's come true.

Did they underestimate him or overestimate the American public?

You got a problem with us, Brexit Boy? 😊
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Icarus on November 12, 2016, 01:02:18 AM
Overestimating the American public is a common mistake. One of our more dour philosopher types was H.L. Mencken. He famously said that one can never go broke by underestimating the American public or words to that effect.

Not to indict the whole lot of us. We do have some brilliant people, there are also some who are intelligent but not quite brilliant, and a larger proportion who is easily beguiled.  We tend to believe what we want to believe. In that case we will accept bullshit promises as a matter of reality.

Our punditry is already explaining why it is impossible for the Donald to fulfil some of the wild promises he has made.   

Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on November 12, 2016, 01:40:34 AM
Every nation has a few brilliant people, some smart but not brilliant people, a bunch of average folks, some dull folks, and a few idiots.  It's a Bell curve everywhere.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Sandra Craft on November 12, 2016, 05:38:44 AM
:notsure: I don't know, if I had to guess, I'd say he's fully aware of what he's done. The impression I get is that he looks and talks like a buffoon, is a walking talking joke and a pathological narcissist but it's clear he knew what he was doing. He alienated a lot of people but apparently tapped into what a huge segment of the population wanted.

I question whether he's capable of being a president but he sure knows how to herd people. 

The polling companies, the media and a huge portion of the american population underestimated the man, now the nightmare's come true.

Did they underestimate him or overestimate the American public?

Little column A, little column B.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: xSilverPhinx on November 12, 2016, 07:00:30 PM
Every nation has a few brilliant people, some smart but not brilliant people, a bunch of average folks, some dull folks, and a few idiots.  It's a Bell curve everywhere.

Pretty much. But some places have more educated people than others.

(I'm treating education levels as distinct from levels of intelligence.)
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on November 12, 2016, 07:16:17 PM
Every nation has a few brilliant people, some smart but not brilliant people, a bunch of average folks, some dull folks, and a few idiots.  It's a Bell curve everywhere.

Pretty much. But some places have more educated people than others.

(I'm treating education levels as distinct from levels of intelligence.)

We have lots of educated people, and the best universities in the world. And we elected Trump.  Go figure.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: xSilverPhinx on November 12, 2016, 07:18:50 PM
Every nation has a few brilliant people, some smart but not brilliant people, a bunch of average folks, some dull folks, and a few idiots.  It's a Bell curve everywhere.

Pretty much. But some places have more educated people than others.

(I'm treating education levels as distinct from levels of intelligence.)

We have lots of educated people, and the best universities in the world. And we elected Trump.  Go figure.

That's what I find fascinating. How is that possible?
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: xSilverPhinx on November 12, 2016, 08:54:31 PM
Voter Embarrassment about Trump Support May Have Messed Up Poll Predictions (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/voter-embarrassment-about-trump-support-may-have-messed-up-poll-predictions/?WT.mc_id=SA_FB_MB_NEWS).

:notsure:
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Steeler on November 13, 2016, 02:01:18 AM
Voter Embarrassment about Trump Support May Have Messed Up Poll Predictions (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/voter-embarrassment-about-trump-support-may-have-messed-up-poll-predictions/?WT.mc_id=SA_FB_MB_NEWS).

:notsure:

That's what I've been saying to my co-workers. I think it did have an effect.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on November 13, 2016, 05:06:16 PM
Every nation has a few brilliant people, some smart but not brilliant people, a bunch of average folks, some dull folks, and a few idiots.  It's a Bell curve everywhere.

Pretty much. But some places have more educated people than others.

(I'm treating education levels as distinct from levels of intelligence.)

We have lots of educated people, and the best universities in the world. And we elected Trump.  Go figure.

That's what I find fascinating. How is that possible?

Again, a lot of people have not benefitted from the economy, and Hillary was part of the establishment who did benefit.  She got millions from Wall Street.  Plus, the Comey letters put the nails in her coffin.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Arturo on November 13, 2016, 05:23:28 PM
Every nation has a few brilliant people, some smart but not brilliant people, a bunch of average folks, some dull folks, and a few idiots.  It's a Bell curve everywhere.

Pretty much. But some places have more educated people than others.

(I'm treating education levels as distinct from levels of intelligence.)

We have lots of educated people, and the best universities in the world. And we elected Trump.  Go figure.

That's what I find fascinating. How is that possible?

Again, a lot of people have not benefitted from the economy, and Hillary was part of the establishment who did benefit.  She got millions from Wall Street.  Plus, the Comey letters put the names l in her coffin.

With that said, I think we underestimated American people. I think there is more depth to this than what meets the eye. For example I spoke with some Trump supporters and one person who didn't vote. The people who did vote for him were brash and what you would expect from a Trump voter. And the one who didn't vote, he seemed to be very assumptive and disthorough with his research, which he assumed everybody else did who didn't vote for Hillary.

Now can I chalk this up to them being stupid? Maybe, I don't know. It could be because of a lack of education, or a lack of will power to actually check their sources. One thing is for certain, the people I spoke to were irrational.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Davin on November 14, 2016, 02:38:11 PM
I definitely wouldn't say that it has much to with intelligence, and I would agree that it was people not checking sources and voting against their own interests. Like what happened with the bill to help out with the health problems that the first responders got as a result to rescuing people, the Republicans keep saying that they supported them, but in action, most of them voted against the bill several times. But Republican voters believe what their representatives say, rather than pay attention to what their representatives actually do.

Look at another thing that Republicans tend to harp on, the national debt. (https://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt.htm)

And compare that to who was in office at the time and who controlled the senate during those years. Reagan doubled the national debt in eight years. Bush 1 doubled the national debt in four years. Clinton increased the national debt by less than 40% in eight years. Bush II almost doubled the national debt in eight years. And Obama increased the national debt by over 50% in eight years. Republicans and the big spenders, but the representatives have successfully tricked their unskeptical voters by blaming the Democrats for the national debt. This is the way it works with most Republican things, they blame Democrats hoping that their voters won't look at the data, and because their voters don't look at the data, they keep getting voted in and doing the very things that their voters think they are voting against.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Davin on January 10, 2017, 09:28:59 PM

We will find out soon enough I suppose.

http://www.salon.com/2017/01/10/please-dont-tell-us-the-truth-house-gop-blocks-budget-watchdog-from-reviewing-cost-of-obamacare-repeal/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/secret-new-rule-allows-house-members-to-hide-records-from-ethics-probes_us_58746aefe4b099cdb0ff34eb
http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/314602/trump-axe-nuclear-weapons-security-chief-without-naming-replacement/
http://thehill.com/policy/transportation/313145-toll-roads-poised-to-boom-under-trump-plan
https://thinkprogress.org/mitch-mcconnell-confirmation-ethics-hypocrisy-2c75b671d694#.jygy2kpx7
http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/article125030534.html
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/ethics-office-trump-aides-election-233309
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-barack-obama-ambassador-orders-resign-inauguration-day-20-january-president-elect-leave-a7512631.html
https://www.salon.com/2017/01/05/donald-trump-is-going-to-appoint-pam-bondi-who-got-an-illegal-payment-from/
http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/05/politics/paul-ryan-planned-parenthood-obamacare/index.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/02/us/politics/with-no-warning-house-republicans-vote-to-hobble-independent-ethics-office.html?action=Click&contentCollection=BreakingNews&contentID=64742303&pgtype=Homepage&_r=1

It looks like we're finding out now. This is not going to be good for you, Steeler. This is going to be bad for you, me, and 99% of Americans. Keep an eye on those unemployment numbers, the national debt, budget increases, etc. They are all going to get worse, because you along with other of unskeptical, easily manipulated Americans voted in the most corrupt politicians we've seen in a while. I only wish you and the rest of the Trump voters would realize that you've made a mistake that could have easily been avoided if you didn't believe lies and/or ignore reality.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: God on January 18, 2017, 08:28:47 PM
I'm shocked as well. Though I predicted it would happen.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Dave on January 18, 2017, 08:57:29 PM
Every nation has a few brilliant people, some smart but not brilliant people, a bunch of average folks, some dull folks, and a few idiots.  It's a Bell curve everywhere.

Pretty much. But some places have more educated people than others.

(I'm treating education levels as distinct from levels of intelligence.)

We have lots of educated people, and the best universities in the world. And we elected Trump.  Go figure.

But what is the ratio between uni educated people and non? Then what are the religious and/or political affiliations of your universities? I am sure that that those factors influence things.  In  America there seems to have been a far longer and bigger tradition of private, narrow syllabus, universities than elsewhere. Thst can make their intake self-selecting to a degree and thus influence the wider picture on graduation if they naintain the same values. - or even have them enhanced.

Complex picture?
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Davin on January 23, 2017, 02:14:41 PM
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-trump-fha-cut-20170120-story.html

Quote
The move by the Department of Housing and Urban Development — one of the first acts of Trump’s administration — reversed a policy announced in the waning days of the Obama presidency that would have trimmed insurance premiums for typical borrowers by hundreds of dollars a year.

Yep, first thing Trump does is screw over everyone with FHA loans.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Dredge on January 25, 2017, 06:13:34 AM
Perhaps Trumpism signals, firstly, the beginning of the end of cultural Marxism globally, which is inevitable after all, since that degree of BS can't possibly survive the test of time.  Next, perhaps it signals the beginning of the end of the culture built on the values of the so-called Enlightenment.  I hope so.   I have a dream - to see the demise of the nonsense religion of equality ... for starters. 

The Trumpster makes me want to be American!  After he's drained the swamp in the US, please send him to Australia so he can clean up here too.  Come to think of it, the Catholic Church could use a Pope with certain Trumpster qualities.  This current Pope is a Loony Left clown.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Arturo on January 25, 2017, 11:01:44 AM
Perhaps Trumpism signals, firstly, the beginning of the end of cultural Marxism globally, which is inevitable after all, since that degree of BS can't possibly survive the test of time.  Next, perhaps it signals the beginning of the end of the culture built on the values of the so-called Enlightenment.  I hope so.   I have a dream - to see the demise of the nonsense religion of equality ... for starters. 

The Trumpster makes me want to be American!  After he's drained the swamp in the US, please send him to Australia so he can clean up here too.  Come to think of it, the Catholic Church could use a Pope with certain Trumpster qualities.  This current Pope is a Loony Left clown.

(http://media.tumblr.com/1a8bdb3143e5ce5c2286a64e95ae77da/tumblr_inline_mn0hkqef241qz4rgp.gif)
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Firebird on January 25, 2017, 02:04:03 PM
Perhaps Trumpism signals, firstly, the beginning of the end of cultural Marxism globally, which is inevitable after all, since that degree of BS can't possibly survive the test of time.  Next, perhaps it signals the beginning of the end of the culture built on the values of the so-called Enlightenment.  I hope so.   I have a dream - to see the demise of the nonsense religion of equality ... for starters. 

The Trumpster makes me want to be American!  After he's drained the swamp in the US, please send him to Australia so he can clean up here too.  Come to think of it, the Catholic Church could use a Pope with certain Trumpster qualities.  This current Pope is a Loony Left clown.

Why exactly are you here? No really. What do you hope to accomplish by wasting your time with us? Do you just get off on being provocative for the hell of it? Because you're not actually posting anything substantive.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Davin on January 25, 2017, 02:24:35 PM
Perhaps Trumpism signals, firstly [baseless bullshit]
(http://gifsec.com/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/08/GIF-Boring-Bored-This-is-boring-Im-bored-Nothing-to-do-Yawn-GIF.gif)
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Dave on January 25, 2017, 03:11:44 PM
Perhaps Trumpism signals, firstly, the beginning of the end of cultural Marxism globally, which is inevitable after all, since that degree of BS can't possibly survive the test of time.  Next, perhaps it signals the beginning of the end of the culture built on the values of the so-called Enlightenment.  I hope so.   I have a dream - to see the demise of the nonsense religion of equality ... for starters. 

The Trumpster makes me want to be American!  After he's drained the swamp in the US, please send him to Australia so he can clean up here too.  Come to think of it, the Catholic Church could use a Pope with certain Trumpster qualities.  This current Pope is a Loony Left clown.

Why exactly are you here? No really. What do you hope to accomplish by wasting your time with us? Do you just get off on being provocative for the hell of it? Because you're not actually posting anything substantive.

That's no way to talk to the likes of Dredge - you have just let it know it has under your dkin.

It is only worth responding to people who willing to debate, not so with the Dredgings of the world. They are immune to sense, strangers to logic and enemies of rationality.

And, it might seem from Apathy's post, a stalker. That alone, if so, deserves banishment in my sense of values. Such are contaminents in the world.

Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Dredge on January 27, 2017, 05:29:45 AM
Why exactly are you here? No really. What do you hope to accomplish by wasting your time with us?
Chicko said it would expand my mind to interact with atheists, and happy atheists are the best kind of atheists. 
Quote
Do you just get off on being provocative for the hell of it? Because you're not actually posting anything substantive.
Provocative?  Which parts did you find provocative and why?

Not substantive?  Surely you jest!  Your problem is envy: My posts are informative, interesting, deep (so deep), intellectually-challenging, awe-inspiring, formidable, thought-provoking and popular - and yours are not.  
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Dredge on January 27, 2017, 06:30:11 AM
That's no way to talk to the likes of Dredge - you have just let it know it has under your dkin.

It is only worth responding to people who willing to debate, not so with the Dredgings of the world. They are immune to sense, strangers to logic and enemies of rationality.

And, it might seem from Apathy's post, a stalker. That alone, if so, deserves banishment in my sense of values. Such are contaminents in the world.
Oh deary, deary me ... this is not very nice; not good and not nice, at all.  I thought you were my friend!  Deep in your heart, don't mean these hurtful and hateful things you say about me.  Of this, I am sure.

A "stalker" - that accusation is so bizarre.  It's fake news and an alternative fact.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Dave on January 27, 2017, 09:23:13 AM
That's no way to talk to the likes of Dredge - you have just let it know it has under your dkin.

It is only worth responding to people who willing to debate, not so with the Dredgings of the world. They are immune to sense, strangers to logic and enemies of rationality.

And, it might seem from Apathy's post, a stalker. That alone, if so, deserves banishment in my sense of values. Such are contaminents in the world.
Oh deary, deary me ... this is not very nice; not good and not nice, at all.  I thought you were my friend!  Deep in your heart, don't mean these hurtful and hateful things you say about me.  Of this, I am sure.

A "stalker" - that accusation is so bizarre.  It's fake news and an alternative fact.
I was merely reporting what another said - and, though I do not wish you any ill I certainly do not consider you a friend. This forum might be a better place without your contributions - though some seem to enjoy tilting at your windmills.

I have little time for you, Dredge, but I hope you live a ling life and prosper through honest endeavour.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: xSilverPhinx on January 27, 2017, 01:20:08 PM
Your problem is envy: My posts are informative, interesting, deep (so deep), intellectually-challenging, awe-inspiring, formidable, thought-provoking and popular - and yours are not. 

Might I remind you that you already have 2 strikes, and if you're having trouble looking for 'provocative', there it is, right there.   
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: xSilverPhinx on January 27, 2017, 01:24:09 PM
...though some seem to enjoy tilting at your windmills.

Tank made a good point somewhere else that if not for the creationist, then for some indecisive lurker who might be reading. I don't see it as a vain attempt as I don't engage Dredge for Dredge, I couldn't care less if he gets it or not.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Dave on January 27, 2017, 02:42:02 PM
...though some seem to enjoy tilting at your windmills.

Tank made a good point somewhere else that if not for the creationist, then for some indecisive lurker who might be reading. I don't see it as a vain attempt as I don't engage Dredge for Dredge, I couldn't care less if he gets it or not.
A goodly point - wonder how many lurkers are lurking?
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Davin on January 27, 2017, 03:02:48 PM
...though some seem to enjoy tilting at your windmills.

Tank made a good point somewhere else that if not for the creationist, then for some indecisive lurker who might be reading. I don't see it as a vain attempt as I don't engage Dredge for Dredge, I couldn't care less if he gets it or not.
A goodly point - wonder how many lurkers are lurking?
I like reading people tearing Dredge's bullshit apart. Even though it looks like Dredge is just trolling.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Dave on January 27, 2017, 04:37:59 PM
...though some seem to enjoy tilting at your windmills.

Tank made a good point somewhere else that if not for the creationist, then for some indecisive lurker who might be reading. I don't see it as a vain attempt as I don't engage Dredge for Dredge, I couldn't care less if he gets it or not.
A goodly point - wonder how many lurkers are lurking?
I like reading people tearing Dredge's bullshit apart. Even though it looks like Dredge is just trolling.
Perhaps I am just jaded by seeing so many Dredge type theist clones, Pahu, Randy Ruggles,TheBorg etc etc have the same facts and rational arguments bounce off their armour. Trolls flourish best when given attention.

Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Davin on January 27, 2017, 04:53:45 PM
...though some seem to enjoy tilting at your windmills.

Tank made a good point somewhere else that if not for the creationist, then for some indecisive lurker who might be reading. I don't see it as a vain attempt as I don't engage Dredge for Dredge, I couldn't care less if he gets it or not.
A goodly point - wonder how many lurkers are lurking?
I like reading people tearing Dredge's bullshit apart. Even though it looks like Dredge is just trolling.
Perhaps I am just jaded by seeing so many Dredge type theist clones, Pahu, Randy Ruggles,TheBorg etc etc have the same facts and rational arguments bounce off their armour. Trolls flourish best when given attention.
It's a double edged sword. Trolls do usually like attention, and they like to make people put in more effort than they do, but then what happens when they go around spouting their bullshit and no one says anything?

Trolling is a sad and pathetic thing, and trolls are pathetic people who also tend to be assholes. One might feel sorry for them if their intentions were more honest. We've heard that trolls thrive on attention, but lies thrive on being left unchallenged.

So address the lies without much regard to the troll, call the troll a troll, and have a useful conversation in spite of the troll. I think that's a better solution.
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Recusant on January 27, 2017, 06:05:59 PM
. . . We've heard that trolls thrive on attention, but lies thrive on being left unchallenged.

So address the lies without much regard to the troll, call the troll a troll, and have a useful conversation in spite of the troll. I think that's a better solution.

Well said, Davin.  :thumbsup: 
Title: Re: Help me understand...
Post by: Arturo on January 30, 2017, 07:00:03 PM
Now the following is just speculation on my part but it may explain why Trump got elected. First let me cite my source: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html

Quote
GDP - composition, by end use:
household consumption: 68.6%
Quote
GDP - composition, by sector of origin:
agriculture: 1.1%
industry: 19.4%
services: 79.5%

Now if our GDP is mostly Sevices, and most of the GDP is consumed by Households, it may explain why President Orange's rhetoric worked so well. Because he is always talking about making deals, and Americans are always buying things so they were primed into "deal-making mode" if that makes sense. So the two just went well together.

But like I said, it's 100% speculation on my part.