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General => Media => Topic started by: Sandra Craft on October 16, 2016, 08:47:07 PM

Title: Difficult Books
Post by: Sandra Craft on October 16, 2016, 08:47:07 PM
I've been trying to read Sam Harris' Waking Up: a guide to spirituality without religion (actually about consciousness and meditating) for over a month and I'm finding it a really tough slog.  Some of the stuff on consciousness is interesting, a lot goes right over my head no matter how many times I re-read and, no matter how I try, I just can't get interested in meditation.

Has anybody else read this book?  What was your experience of it?  And failing that, anybody have stories about difficulties with other books?
Title: Re: Difficult Books
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on October 16, 2016, 09:26:10 PM
If a book doesn't grab you, it just doesn't.  Not your fault - just not for you.  I read Faulkner (Absalom, Absalom, and Sound & Fury) just because I thought I was supposed to - never got into it and couldn't understand what was going on half the time.  I kept at it and finished both, and will never go there again.  It's the author's job to reach you, not the other way around. Some writers are purposefully inscrutable, I think, just to make you think they are saying something.
Title: Re: Difficult Books
Post by: xSilverPhinx on October 16, 2016, 10:00:44 PM
Moby Dick. Getting past "Call me Ishmael" was easy enough but the rest of the book was almost excruciating. It's a good book, I'm sure, but I found it difficult to read. I was able to finish the entire thing, though. :grin:
Title: Re: Difficult Books
Post by: Sandra Craft on October 16, 2016, 10:18:53 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 16, 2016, 09:26:10 PM
If a book doesn't grab you, it just doesn't.  Not your fault - just not for you.  I read Faulkner (Absalom, Absalom, and Sound & Fury) just because I thought I was supposed to - never got into it and couldn't understand what was going on half the time.  I kept at it and finished both, and will never go there again.  It's the author's job to reach you, not the other way around. Some writers are purposefully inscrutable, I think, just to make you think they are saying something.

I think my problem is I wanted so badly to understand it that I'm resisting not understanding.  It's just so frustrating, but yeah, I am on the verge of adding this, unfinished, to the library donation pile.

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on October 16, 2016, 10:00:44 PM
Moby Dick. Getting past "Call me Ishmael" was easy enough but the rest of the book was almost excruciating. It's a good book, I'm sure, but I found it difficult to read. I was able to finish the entire thing, though. :grin:

You're better than I am -- I spent nearly 30 years trying to read Moby Dick before admitting defeat.  I spent half my time reading it wanting to throttle Melville while screaming "get to the point!" at him.  I don't think it's the old-fashioned slow writing style either, because I have no problem with Hawthorne, and I read all one million words of Clarissa without wanting to strangle Richardson even once.  It's just Melville.
Title: Re: Difficult Books
Post by: Pasta Chick on October 16, 2016, 11:04:28 PM
I'm with EN - I just quit. There are too many books in the world to waste time on one that isn't working for you. My stubbornness and tough of OCD hate me for it, but I know it's ultimately not worth pushing through something I don't connect with.
Title: Re: Difficult Books
Post by: Sandra Craft on October 16, 2016, 11:27:29 PM
Quote from: Pasta Chick on October 16, 2016, 11:04:28 PM
I'm with EN - I just quit. There are too many books in the world to waste time on one that isn't working for you. My stubbornness and tough of OCD hate me for it, but I know it's ultimately not worth pushing through something I don't connect with.

The older I get the more I think "I don't have time for this", literally now.  But hanging in there is a tough habit to break.
Title: Re: Difficult Books
Post by: Velma on October 17, 2016, 05:32:10 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on October 16, 2016, 10:00:44 PM
Moby Dick. Getting past "Call me Ishmael" was easy enough but the rest of the book was almost excruciating. It's a good book, I'm sure, but I found it difficult to read. I was able to finish the entire thing, though. :grin:
Moby Dick was much easier as an audio book.
Title: Re: Difficult Books
Post by: Dave on October 17, 2016, 10:27:06 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 16, 2016, 11:27:29 PM
Quote from: Pasta Chick on October 16, 2016, 11:04:28 PM
I'm with EN - I just quit. There are too many books in the world to waste time on one that isn't working for you. My stubbornness and tough of OCD hate me for it, but I know it's ultimately not worth pushing through something I don't connect with.

The older I get the more I think "I don't have time for this", literally now.  But hanging in there is a tough habit to break.

Yeah, age brings all kinds of things! But I still feel a tad guilty about reading space operas or fantasy rather than something "meaningful".

Though, having learned to discriminate between "good" and "bad" authors, I have come to find wisdom in books by the likes of  Assimov, Heinlein, Atwood, Pratchett and many others.

In the 60s the in books for pseudo-literatti were Homer's Illiad and Plato's Republic. Amazing how much crap was uttered about these by pretentious people. Gave up struggling with both of them and decided I was just a pleb who wanted to read for pleasure, not mental pain,

Never completely killed the guilt that my own pretensions generated though!
Title: Re: Difficult Books
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on October 17, 2016, 04:12:56 PM
Quote from: Gloucester on October 17, 2016, 10:27:06 AM
In the 60s the in books for pseudo-literatti were Homer's Illiad and Plato's Republic. Amazing how much crap was uttered about these by pretentious people. Gave up struggling with both of them and decided I was just a pleb who wanted to read for pleasure, not mental pain,

Never completely killed the guilt that my own pretensions generated though!

It's just a form of elitist manipulation.  They make you feel that way to keep the things they consider important at the forefront.  If you don't like it, don't read it, and don't worry about it.
Title: Re: Difficult Books
Post by: Dave on October 17, 2016, 04:47:07 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 17, 2016, 04:12:56 PM
Quote from: Gloucester on October 17, 2016, 10:27:06 AM
In the 60s the in books for pseudo-literatti were Homer's Illiad and Plato's Republic. Amazing how much crap was uttered about these by pretentious people. Gave up struggling with both of them and decided I was just a pleb who wanted to read for pleasure, not mental pain,

Never completely killed the guilt that my own pretensions generated though!

It's just a form of elitist manipulation.  They make you feel that way to keep the things they consider important at the forefront.  If you don't like it, don't read it, and don't worry about it.

Since "elite" has a valid value "elitist" is so often a misuse of a perfectly good word! "Pretentious plonkers"  is longer but fits better.
Title: Re: Difficult Books
Post by: Davin on October 17, 2016, 05:21:40 PM
I haven't read Waking Up by Sam Harris, but I have read other books by him (Lying and Free Will), they weren't too bad but I'm not a fan of his writing. So I think if he tried to explain something difficult, I can imagine that no going well. He had kind of a more, "just trust me now and read the references later" take on writing, than a trying to explain all the things approach, but it kept the books short. Also, many of the sources cited were available without paying, so maybe you could try reading the references, then you might have an easier time understanding what he's trying to get at.

Difficult books for me are ones where I don't like the style of writing, but I still feel compelled to finish reading them because I like the story. I read Moby Dick when I was fairly young, it took me several months, but I finished it. I liked the story, but it felt like it suffered from many tangents and overly described things that had little to do with the story. I like the story in the Song of Ice and Fire series by George R. R. Martin, but I find his style of writing to be extremely difficult to trudge through, it's like listening to someone with dementia teach history. But I liked the story, so I was able to force myself through the first three books. They were difficult.
Title: Re: Difficult Books
Post by: Dragonia on October 17, 2016, 05:29:26 PM
Currently trying really hard to get through The 5th Gospel,  by Ian Caldwell . I have never gravitated towards mysteries, and this just confirms again why. I just get very impatient, waiting for The Answer.  And it's a National Bestseller too!  As much as I love to read, one would think that it would hold my attention better. But I have to finish, so I can find out what the point of the book is.  >:(
Title: Re: Difficult Books
Post by: Dave on October 17, 2016, 05:46:10 PM
QuoteBut I have to finish, so I can find out what the point of the book is.

Dragonia, that's either dedication or sheer bloody minded stubborness!

;)
Title: Re: Difficult Books
Post by: xSilverPhinx on October 18, 2016, 09:45:00 AM
Quote from: Velma on October 17, 2016, 05:32:10 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on October 16, 2016, 10:00:44 PM
Moby Dick. Getting past "Call me Ishmael" was easy enough but the rest of the book was almost excruciating. It's a good book, I'm sure, but I found it difficult to read. I was able to finish the entire thing, though. :grin:
Moby Dick was much easier as an audio book.

I believe it is, but audio books have always been powerful lullibies in my case, no matter the story.  :P
Title: Re: Difficult Books
Post by: xSilverPhinx on October 18, 2016, 09:58:52 AM
Quote from: Davin on October 17, 2016, 05:21:40 PMI like the story in the Song of Ice and Fire series by George R. R. Martin, but I find his style of writing to be extremely difficult to trudge through, it's like listening to someone with dementia teach history. But I liked the story, so I was able to force myself through the first three books. They were difficult.

While I don't consider his books to be difficult to get through (maybe except for the third, which is the most boring of the series IMO), I wouldn't call his style of writing good either. It isn't among the worst but it isn't excellent. Also, the sheer number of characters doesn't help, I felt lost on more than one occasion. I am still a fan though, perhaps mostly due to the HBO series.
Title: Re: Difficult Books
Post by: Davin on October 18, 2016, 05:06:00 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on October 18, 2016, 09:58:52 AM
Quote from: Davin on October 17, 2016, 05:21:40 PMI like the story in the Song of Ice and Fire series by George R. R. Martin, but I find his style of writing to be extremely difficult to trudge through, it's like listening to someone with dementia teach history. But I liked the story, so I was able to force myself through the first three books. They were difficult.

While I don't consider his books to be difficult to get through (maybe except for the third, which is the most boring of the series IMO), I wouldn't call his style of writing good either. It isn't among the worst but it isn't excellent. Also, the sheer number of characters doesn't help, I felt lost on more than one occasion. I am still a fan though, perhaps mostly due to the HBO series.
I don't like reading, so I'm overly picky about the style of the writing.If I feel like they repeat the same thing but saying it in a different way, I tend to dislike it. Like The Shannara series by Terry Brooks. I like his writing and I like the first 2 books I read... but then by the third book, it just seemed like the same story over again. Like all he did was "find and replace" the people, places and things. So I recommend reading at least one of the books from that series, but I don't think it matters which one.

And the book I'm reading right now is tough to get through... but I have a thing where I have to finish what I start unless it becomes way to difficult. I've found myself asking the book, "Really?" and giving loud sighs of exasperation, because the main character is too prepared, almost completely invincible, has everything, needs nothing, none of his plans have been foiled even slightly... and it's not even a Jack Reacher book. There's no feeling of danger, no actual drama, no character development, and since all the plans work exactly as planned, I get to read what happens twice in a row. But I'm dumb, so I'm going to finish it. It will be the 41st book I've read this year. I've Read through my queue and added some, so I'll probably cut down on my reading a bit after this year.
Title: Re: Difficult Books
Post by: xSilverPhinx on October 18, 2016, 07:16:34 PM
Quote from: Davin on October 18, 2016, 05:06:00 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on October 18, 2016, 09:58:52 AM
Quote from: Davin on October 17, 2016, 05:21:40 PMI like the story in the Song of Ice and Fire series by George R. R. Martin, but I find his style of writing to be extremely difficult to trudge through, it's like listening to someone with dementia teach history. But I liked the story, so I was able to force myself through the first three books. They were difficult.

While I don't consider his books to be difficult to get through (maybe except for the third, which is the most boring of the series IMO), I wouldn't call his style of writing good either. It isn't among the worst but it isn't excellent. Also, the sheer number of characters doesn't help, I felt lost on more than one occasion. I am still a fan though, perhaps mostly due to the HBO series.
I don't like reading, so I'm overly picky about the style of the writing.If I feel like they repeat the same thing but saying it in a different way, I tend to dislike it. Like The Shannara series by Terry Brooks. I like his writing and I like the first 2 books I read... but then by the third book, it just seemed like the same story over again. Like all he did was "find and replace" the people, places and things. So I recommend reading at least one of the books from that series, but I don't think it matters which one.

Reminds me of Joseph Campbell's the Hero's Journey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero%27s_journey). If you've never heard of it before, basically it's about the hero's trajectory being the same story with different "clothes" in different hero myths:

"In narratology and comparative mythology, the monomyth, or the hero's journey, is the common template of a broad category of tales that involve a hero who goes on an adventure, and in a decisive crisis wins a victory, and then comes home changed or transformed."

QuoteAnd the book I'm reading right now is tough to get through... but I have a thing where I have to finish what I start unless it becomes way to difficult. I've found myself asking the book, "Really?" and giving loud sighs of exasperation, because the main character is too prepared, almost completely invincible, has everything, needs nothing, none of his plans have been foiled even slightly... and it's not even a Jack Reacher book. There's no feeling of danger, no actual drama, no character development, and since all the plans work exactly as planned, I get to read what happens twice in a row. But I'm dumb, so I'm going to finish it. It will be the 41st book I've read this year. I've Read through my queue and added some, so I'll probably cut down on my reading a bit after this year.

Sounds awful, which book is it? ;D
Title: Re: Difficult Books
Post by: Davin on October 18, 2016, 07:58:02 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on October 18, 2016, 07:16:34 PM
Quote from: Davin on October 18, 2016, 05:06:00 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on October 18, 2016, 09:58:52 AM
Quote from: Davin on October 17, 2016, 05:21:40 PMI like the story in the Song of Ice and Fire series by George R. R. Martin, but I find his style of writing to be extremely difficult to trudge through, it's like listening to someone with dementia teach history. But I liked the story, so I was able to force myself through the first three books. They were difficult.

While I don't consider his books to be difficult to get through (maybe except for the third, which is the most boring of the series IMO), I wouldn't call his style of writing good either. It isn't among the worst but it isn't excellent. Also, the sheer number of characters doesn't help, I felt lost on more than one occasion. I am still a fan though, perhaps mostly due to the HBO series.
I don't like reading, so I'm overly picky about the style of the writing.If I feel like they repeat the same thing but saying it in a different way, I tend to dislike it. Like The Shannara series by Terry Brooks. I like his writing and I like the first 2 books I read... but then by the third book, it just seemed like the same story over again. Like all he did was "find and replace" the people, places and things. So I recommend reading at least one of the books from that series, but I don't think it matters which one.

Reminds me of Joseph Campbell's the Hero's Journey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero%27s_journey). If you've never heard of it before, basically it's about the hero's trajectory being the same story with different "clothes" in different hero myths:

"In narratology and comparative mythology, the monomyth, or the hero's journey, is the common template of a broad category of tales that involve a hero who goes on an adventure, and in a decisive crisis wins a victory, and then comes home changed or transformed."
Oh yeah, I read a bit about that. I occasionally attempt to write things (I have a few published short stories and a really shitty rough draft of a novel with a story that contains many of the things I complain about), and read up a lot on writing theory. I'm fine with that stuff being guidelines, but strictly following them tends to annoy me when I read/watch the stories. The funny thing is, sometimes writers that I talk with will sometimes quote advice from a successful author, and then act like it's an unbreakable rule, when the author her/himself breaks it several times per book.

Quote from: xSilverPhinx
QuoteAnd the book I'm reading right now is tough to get through... but I have a thing where I have to finish what I start unless it becomes way to difficult. I've found myself asking the book, "Really?" and giving loud sighs of exasperation, because the main character is too prepared, almost completely invincible, has everything, needs nothing, none of his plans have been foiled even slightly... and it's not even a Jack Reacher book. There's no feeling of danger, no actual drama, no character development, and since all the plans work exactly as planned, I get to read what happens twice in a row. But I'm dumb, so I'm going to finish it. It will be the 41st book I've read this year. I've Read through my queue and added some, so I'll probably cut down on my reading a bit after this year.

Sounds awful, which book is it? ;D

Chemical Burn by Quincy J. Allen.

It was published in part by Kevin J. Anderson, who had a few books I remember liking (and some I remember not liking), and the person said that if I like Kevin J. Anderson and a rough gritty noir story, then I'd like this book. Well, I do like some of Kevin J. Anderson's writing, and I do really like gritty noir stories, but this book is not gritty or noir. It's like if someone took a noir story, and all the places where protagonist fails, he instead succeeds. And instead of having untrustworthy friends, he has friends that not only can be completely trusted with secrets, but they also never fail. There is one part where one of his friends calls up the main character saying he's in trouble, and the protagonist rushes out to help. Now this is one point where sighed out loud expecting it to turn from a possible failure to a success. Then it turned out that he had not failed, but instead succeeded and the "trouble" was just about how he was going to carry all the money home. So gritty and sooooo noir. Right.

Well, I think I've let out enough of of my steam on that book, only 15% more to go then I'm tossing the book in the trash.
Title: Re: Difficult Books
Post by: xSilverPhinx on October 18, 2016, 10:00:19 PM
Quote from: Davin on October 18, 2016, 07:58:02 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on October 18, 2016, 07:16:34 PM
Quote from: Davin on October 18, 2016, 05:06:00 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on October 18, 2016, 09:58:52 AM
Quote from: Davin on October 17, 2016, 05:21:40 PMI like the story in the Song of Ice and Fire series by George R. R. Martin, but I find his style of writing to be extremely difficult to trudge through, it's like listening to someone with dementia teach history. But I liked the story, so I was able to force myself through the first three books. They were difficult.

While I don't consider his books to be difficult to get through (maybe except for the third, which is the most boring of the series IMO), I wouldn't call his style of writing good either. It isn't among the worst but it isn't excellent. Also, the sheer number of characters doesn't help, I felt lost on more than one occasion. I am still a fan though, perhaps mostly due to the HBO series.
I don't like reading, so I'm overly picky about the style of the writing.If I feel like they repeat the same thing but saying it in a different way, I tend to dislike it. Like The Shannara series by Terry Brooks. I like his writing and I like the first 2 books I read... but then by the third book, it just seemed like the same story over again. Like all he did was "find and replace" the people, places and things. So I recommend reading at least one of the books from that series, but I don't think it matters which one.

Reminds me of Joseph Campbell's the Hero's Journey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero%27s_journey). If you've never heard of it before, basically it's about the hero's trajectory being the same story with different "clothes" in different hero myths:

"In narratology and comparative mythology, the monomyth, or the hero's journey, is the common template of a broad category of tales that involve a hero who goes on an adventure, and in a decisive crisis wins a victory, and then comes home changed or transformed."
Oh yeah, I read a bit about that. I occasionally attempt to write things (I have a few published short stories and a really shitty rough draft of a novel with a story that contains many of the things I complain about), and read up a lot on writing theory. I'm fine with that stuff being guidelines, but strictly following them tends to annoy me when I read/watch the stories. The funny thing is, sometimes writers that I talk with will sometimes quote advice from a successful author, and then act like it's an unbreakable rule, when the author her/himself breaks it several times per book.

There shouldn't be unbreakable rules in creative pursuits, that just makes the whole thing boringly formulaic.


Quote from: xSilverPhinx
Quote
QuoteAnd the book I'm reading right now is tough to get through... but I have a thing where I have to finish what I start unless it becomes way to difficult. I've found myself asking the book, "Really?" and giving loud sighs of exasperation, because the main character is too prepared, almost completely invincible, has everything, needs nothing, none of his plans have been foiled even slightly... and it's not even a Jack Reacher book. There's no feeling of danger, no actual drama, no character development, and since all the plans work exactly as planned, I get to read what happens twice in a row. But I'm dumb, so I'm going to finish it. It will be the 41st book I've read this year. I've Read through my queue and added some, so I'll probably cut down on my reading a bit after this year.

Sounds awful, which book is it? ;D

Chemical Burn by Quincy J. Allen.

It was published in part by Kevin J. Anderson, who had a few books I remember liking (and some I remember not liking), and the person said that if I like Kevin J. Anderson and a rough gritty noir story, then I'd like this book. Well, I do like some of Kevin J. Anderson's writing, and I do really like gritty noir stories, but this book is not gritty or noir. It's like if someone took a noir story, and all the places where protagonist fails, he instead succeeds. And instead of having untrustworthy friends, he has friends that not only can be completely trusted with secrets, but they also never fail. There is one part where one of his friends calls up the main character saying he's in trouble, and the protagonist rushes out to help. Now this is one point where sighed out loud expecting it to turn from a possible failure to a success. Then it turned out that he had not failed, but instead succeeded and the "trouble" was just about how he was going to carry all the money home. So gritty and sooooo noir. Right.

Well, I think I've let out enough of of my steam on that book, only 15% more to go then I'm tossing the book in the trash.

:P Best of luck.
Title: Re: Difficult Books
Post by: Essie Mae on October 20, 2016, 12:33:06 AM
I'm reading 'Little Red Chairs' by Iris Murdoch and I didn't expect the graphic scenes of torture. The part I am reading now gives a vivid picture of what contemporary life is like for London's underclass. Although very readable, those parts are difficult and they have made me think that I am rather complacent and very, very lucky.
Title: Re: Difficult Books
Post by: Icarus on October 20, 2016, 05:26:56 AM
Perhaps your book, Essie, is similar to the one that I just finished.  My book is titled Hillbilly Elegy; by J.D. Vance. It is a biography about a legitimate Appalachian hillbilly, who by sheer chance, exceeded his heritage by a long shot. He is a graduate of Yale Law School.  The most important feature of the book is that he explains some of the sociology and psychology of the less privileged and why they do not/can not manage to raise themselves above their assigned position in the cultural pecking orders.  I see it as an immensely important little book that would benefit society if only everyone read and understood what the book told us.
Title: Re: Difficult Books
Post by: hermes2015 on October 20, 2016, 08:09:41 AM
Some time in the early seventies I felt compelled to read John Barth's Giles Goat-Boy. I guess it was internal pressure fuelled by my pseudo-intellectual pretensions that drove me to read every single word. I kept blaming my own stupidity for not enjoying or even understanding the book, but years later I felt vindicated when I read that Gore Vidal had reacted similarly to it.
Title: Re: Difficult Books
Post by: Essie Mae on October 20, 2016, 10:59:56 PM
Quote from: Icarus on October 20, 2016, 05:26:56 AM
Perhaps your book, Essie, is similar to the one that I just finished.  My book is titled Hillbilly Elegy; by J.D. Vance. It is a biography about a legitimate Appalachian hillbilly, who by sheer chance, exceeded his heritage by a long shot. He is a graduate of Yale Law School.  The most important feature of the book is that he explains some of the sociology and psychology of the less privileged and why they do not/can not manage to raise themselves above their assigned position in the cultural pecking orders.  I see it as an immensely important little book that would benefit society if only everyone read and understood what the book told us.

I can see there might be similarities and why you think it's an important read. I've put it on the Kindle wish-list.
Title: Re: Difficult Books
Post by: Dragonia on February 19, 2017, 03:42:16 AM
Quote from: Gloucester on October 17, 2016, 05:46:10 PM
QuoteBut I have to finish, so I can find out what the point of the book is.

Dragonia, that's either dedication or sheer bloody minded stubborness!

;)
After months of repeated dedication, I have finally finished this book.(The Fifth Gospel) Glad I stuck it out, because the end was pretty intriguing and thought-provoking. A little something for every religious persuasion in there, and the author obviously did an insane amount of research deep into many different subjects to get this novel together. I have a lot of respect for that. It was worth my stubbornness! ;D