Happy Atheist Forum

OK,

First of all The Friendly Atheist:



So, as I understand it, these "churches" are just gatherings of atheists, humanists, agnostics and sometimes even believers who just like to get together, sing a few songs, listen to some sermons and have a little shindig or something.

I was brought up a Catholic and during my oldest daughter's childhood attended church (CofE) again because I reasoned it wasn't my position to educate her as an atheist (push her towards atheism) ... I think differently now, it was more of a blip than a truly rational decision.

However, I do believe that religions act as community focal points and I miss that. OK, I don't miss anywhere enough to get me off my butt and down to a church but I think it has a certain social cohesive value that atheists (being as difficult to herd as cats) don't do anywhere near as well.

But here's the question ... who you go to an atheist church? Being brutally honest my answer is probably no, I don'ty like the leaning towards a church format, it bothers me so no.

Any of you?

Keke

Probably not, churchy places and rituals just don't attract me.

Thought about it, as we have one of those Sunday Assembly groups (http://boston.sundayassembly.com) nearby,  but never did. Just didn't seem so attractive in the end, and I prefer to sleep in on weekends.

I probably would if it were nearby -- already go the the local UUC from time to time.  I always enjoyed going to church.

...But...but, this place is my church.  :unsure:
Why would I want to go anywhere else? We have a god, (Asmo) we have music, we don't have a preacher, but that's because the podium is open to whoever loves it, and we all love it.  :smilenod: The hours are flexible, members come and stay, members come and go, members are kicked out. Sometimes we lock the door, but members who have been kicked out try to come in through the back door or the windows, when moderators are not watching, (Parture).  :eyeroll:

~I think there is a lot of love here...I can feel it. I'm sorry if this makes religious people angry.

Looks like most people feel similar to me.

Quote from: Magdalena on September 05, 2016, 03:53:55 AM~I think there is a lot of love here...I can feel it. I'm sorry if this makes religious people angry.

Really? I have respect for some forum members but love? No, that's something I reserve for my family and real friends.

Keke

I'm leery of any club that would have me as a member.

Quote from: Kekerusey on September 05, 2016, 01:40:22 PM

Quote from: Magdalena on September 05, 2016, 03:53:55 AM~I think there is a lot of love here...I can feel it. I'm sorry if this makes religious people angry.

Really? I have respect for some forum members but love? No, that's something I reserve for my family and real friends.

Keke

OK.

We could have atheist gatherings at the tennis court, at the local bar and grille.  That might be one option but not the most attractive one. We could meet in the workshop in my backyard. If we called our gathering a church there are some really nice tax incentives...at least in the US.  I can imagine a shrewd atheist person who wants to have a building property but wishes to diminish the property tax liability. If I or some other of us has a five dollar certificate of theological proficiency such as a certificate from Blowtorch University of Jesus Christ,  then there are personal income tax diversions .....You can see where I am going with this. Call me "Icarus the Devious"   

Once upon a time, I went to monthly meetings of a group of atheists in Mississippi. However, I was an atheist in the Southern US. Until that group, most of us didn't know any other atheists. I've not felt the need since then for some reason.

Quote from: Icarus on September 06, 2016, 12:18:52 AM
We could have atheist gatherings at the tennis court, at the local bar and grille.  That might be one option but not the most attractive one. We could meet in the workshop in my backyard. If we called our gathering a church there are some really nice tax incentives...at least in the US.  I can imagine a shrewd atheist person who wants to have a building property but wishes to diminish the property tax liability. If I or some other of us has a five dollar certificate of theological proficiency such as a certificate from Blowtorch University of Jesus Christ,  then there are personal income tax diversions .....You can see where I am going with this. Call me "Icarus the Devious"

For Brits It's all very simple ... the pub. There's a few groups like that around the world, one in Ireland, another in Norway ... I'm pretty sure there's something similar in London. Maybe I should start one in Kent even if we don't get tax breaks (at least none I'm aware of)?

Keke

Quote from: Kekerusey on September 05, 2016, 01:40:22 PM
Looks like most people feel similar to me.

Quote from: Magdalena on September 05, 2016, 03:53:55 AM~I think there is a lot of love here...I can feel it. I'm sorry if this makes religious people angry.

Really? I have respect for some forum members but love? No, that's something I reserve for my family and real friends.

Keke

Oh there is love here.

Quote from: Tank on September 06, 2016, 07:25:23 PM
Oh there is love here.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reactiongifs.us%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F04%2Fthank_you_one_person_stephen_colbert.gif&hash=78ceb75ce3dee89ae4d8fc76807b5f8eb4801000)
:grin:

"Love is a grave mental disease"-Plato

Quote from: No one on September 06, 2016, 08:43:39 PM
"Love is a grave mental disease"-Plato

That's exactly why I love No one.  :jaded rimshot:

Quote from: Magdalena on September 06, 2016, 08:29:18 PM

Quote from: Tank on September 06, 2016, 07:25:23 PM
Oh there is love here.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reactiongifs.us%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F04%2Fthank_you_one_person_stephen_colbert.gif&hash=78ceb75ce3dee89ae4d8fc76807b5f8eb4801000)
:grin:

(I was thinking it)

Quote from: No one on September 06, 2016, 08:43:39 PM
"Love is a grave mental disease"-Plato

Yep :)

Would I join an atheist church..? Depends.

The simple answer is "no," because I have a distaste for such groups. Not just churches, but also lobbies, political parties and especially various employment-related unions.

That said, I see how I can be inclined to join a purely social organization, but there, science and/or debate clubs come far above atheist congregations on my list of wants.

I'm perfectly content being a member of an atheist community right here, in the HAF-corner of the Internet. Don't need or particularly want one outside that.

Quote from: Tank on September 06, 2016, 07:25:23 PMOh there is love here.

Then you and I have very different ideas of what love is. Love to me means I would give my life for that person ... I love my wife, my children, my family, some of my friends, perhaps even put my life on the line for my country. Then it becomes more vague.

I'm a pragmatist, a realist ... I don't know any of you as anything much more than names on an internet page and, whilst there are some I reckon I might like in real life, there are already some I dislike so. This forum is interesting, engages me in an intellectual sense, occasionally amuses me but love? I don't think so.

Keke

Quote from: Asmodean on September 07, 2016, 10:41:08 AM
Would I join an atheist church..? Depends.

The simple answer is "no," because I have a distaste for such groups. Not just churches, but also lobbies, political parties and especially various employment-related unions.

That said, I see how I can be inclined to join a purely social organization, but there, science and/or debate clubs come far above atheist congregations on my list of wants.

I'm perfectly content being a member of an atheist community right here, in the HAF-corner of the Internet. Don't need or particularly want one outside that.

OK ... I'm not known for political motivation although I have become much more so following the clusterf*** that was Brexit.

I would definitely join a union partly for protection against the ravages of management (to which I havce recently been subject), partly because I believe in the strength of people in orgainsed groups and partly because I believe we owe a great deal of our current standard of living to their actions in the past. None of which constitutes blanket approval.

Keke

Oh, I would certainly join a union had I not had the capability of negotiating a better deal for myself than the pretty general union-negotiated variety. I'd choke on my own hypocrisy a bit, but my own financial interests would likely win me over... To a degree. I'll come back to that unless I forget. But then, I DO have the abovementioned negotiating capacity, and I think people should develop that rather than rely on someone else to work in their best interest. Granted, it's not as simple as I put it in a few lazily typed lines, but there it is.

What it comes down to, is that I support people getting what they deserve based on the current standard of deserving that best applies to them. Organised workers can often end up getting more or less than they deserve since unions don't know their personal capacity to generate profit, directly or otherwise, for their employer. Me, I won't settle for less, nor would I take more than my due. Not in an employment situation. My work is worth what it's worth, and it's my job to convince my higher-ups of that fact.

That out of the way, I was not aiming at political organisations specifically. I generally dislike "interest groups" for meddling outside their defined scope. To put it this way, if you are a railroad commuters' club, then don't fucking meddle in public education policy. Go ride your trains and leave that stuff to them other assholes.

Now, some groups are better than others, of course, but it seems like you have to buy a fuckload of political agenda, not necessarilly your own, along with pretty much every organised stance you take. Indirectly supporting such agendas by virtue of an active membership is still support, especially in paid membership organisations or those getting government funds calculated based on their membership lists.

Quote from: Asmodean on September 07, 2016, 02:23:40 PMSnippety snip

I'd agree with most of that although clearly (to me) I'm not the sort of person that can negotiate my own deals with management, you typically need to be a lot more senior than me in Britain.

Keke

There are several different kinds of love. Most people can think of at least two kinds, being that they come from a family and have loved someone romantically (at least I hope that those are two different kinds of love  :puke:). Further, I would consider comradely a form of love, and certainly there are many here that I would say that I love in that way.

I wouldn't join an atheist church unless that time could be used usefully. My family went to church every Sunday and it lasted three hours plus the prep and post time. Such a waste of time. So I feel like an atheist church would also be a waste of time.

Quote from: Kekerusey on September 07, 2016, 03:20:41 PM

Quote from: Asmodean on September 07, 2016, 02:23:40 PMSnippety snip

I'd agree with most of that although clearly (to me) I'm not the sort of person that can negotiate my own deals with management, you typically need to be a lot more senior than me in Britain.

Keke

Well, business culture you are in is certainly a factor. Sometimes, it is as you describe over here as well, but very rarely when your job needs you as much as or more than you need it. For my kind of gig, all you need to negotiate your own terms is being good at what you do. And if your terms are reasonable, you'll get what you ask, especially if it's a re-neg and you are well-liked.

Quote from: Asmodean on September 07, 2016, 06:17:21 PMWell, business culture you are in is certainly a factor. Sometimes, it is as you describe over here as well, but very rarely when your job needs you as much as or more than you need it. For my kind of gig, all you need to negotiate your own terms is being good at what you do. And if your terms are reasonable, you'll get what you ask, especially if it's a re-neg and you are well-liked.

My (now ex) employers would simply shrug and say, "There's the door if you're not happy."

Keke

Quote from: Kekerusey on September 07, 2016, 07:39:44 PM
My (now ex) employers would simply shrug and say, "There's the door if you're not happy."

Keke

Ah, yes. My employers would only do that if my demands exceeded my usefulness. (Relative to the average in the business)

Finding solid people to work for you isn't easy, so pretty much every employer I've had actively tried to keep the good* ones. It may well be different for "no special training required" jobs... I don't know.

*Not necessarilly the smartest or the most educated, or even particularly expensive. A lot of it is about fitting in, or "being the right man for the job." A LOT of factors go into that.

Quote from: Asmodean on September 07, 2016, 08:20:04 PMAh, yes. My employers would only do that if my demands exceeded my usefulness. (Relative to the average in the business)

Finding solid people to work for you isn't easy, so pretty much every employer I've had actively tried to keep the good* ones. It may well be different for "no special training required" jobs... I don't know.

*Not necessarilly the smartest or the most educated, or even particularly expensive. A lot of it is about fitting in, or "being the right man for the job." A LOT of factors go into that.

We are (most of us) fairly highly trained people, that just happens to be my ex-employer's general attitude ... it's just their business model. If they actually wanted skilled people they wouldn't be making 400 plus people redundant and off-shoring their roles to India. No one likes Indian helpdesks, not for racist reasons (although I am sure there are some) but because there are accent and cultural differences that make it difficult for us to understand them, that and the fact that they are trained to work largely from scripts.

To me it was clear that this was the way my ex-company was going ever since they bought in a huge server setup intended to virtualise all the client hardware on site ... you could argue it was because virtual servers are more efficient (they are) or you could be more cynical like me and say it's because they wanted to carry out the entire operation from somewhere else ... ultimately it's all about money and for the cost of one UK perosn they can hire 3 or 4 people in India.

Shrug ... it's just the way with a company to whom service is unimportant and money is everything.

Keke

Ugh... They seem to be lacking in their vision department, among other things. Also, from experience, one fairly competent UK-trained IT consultant is readily worth 3-4 India-trained ones. Mostly for the script-robot reasons you've mentioned.

Church is so boring! I hated church so much as a child. I'm so glad that in my mid-teens my parents ended up stop going, and thus I stopped having to go.

However, I kind of understand the social aspect, now. I went to my oboe teacher's church a couple of months or so ago, and everyone was so friendly to me, like actually talking to me. They wouldn't have been so friendly if they knew everything about me (particularly my non-belief!), but it was still interesting...

Now I have college, and I've joined the LGBT club and will try to go to the Secular Student Alliance meetings as well. I've got some social interaction there!

I don't blame people for wanting something like it, but why call it 'church'?

Quote from: Kekerusey on September 07, 2016, 01:52:40 PM

Quote from: Tank on September 06, 2016, 07:25:23 PMOh there is love here.

Then you and I have very different ideas of what love is. ...

Evidently.

Love stinks. Yeah, yeah.

Quote from: Harmonie on September 08, 2016, 03:00:45 PM
I don't blame people for wanting something like it, but why call it 'church'?

Yeah, next thing you know they'll be calling atheism a "religion".  :headshake:

Wait...

Speaking of atheist church:  A Godless Walk through the Bible (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/godlessindixie/2016/09/10/a-godless-walk-through-the-bible/)

I like the idea of community. I'm still involved with a church because its religiosity is very laid back and it's more a social thing. But, the structure of church is terrible: one person talks, the rest listen. I prefer a discussion, or perhaps a short talk from an expert and discussion. Luckily, we get to socialize and eat afterwards, and that lasts longer than the actual church service.

Of course, it helps that it's a very small congregation and we gather around a single large table together.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Mound-Church/Mound-Church-building/i-DHPxvxB/0/M/Dining%20Room%20%28North%29-M.jpg) (https://squirrelscience.smugmug.com/Mound-Church/Mound-Church-building/i-DHPxvxB/A)

I'd definitely join a church if I could learn something. Not so much singing and dancing though. But if I could sit down and listen like a lecture was happening then I would amuse myself by going.

Oh Jeffrey, always so preoccupied with whether or not if you could, but never stop to think if you should.

Apathy;  Subject matter that relates to whatever you might learn in church is best extracted from books. Books are more convenient in many ways. For example you can read a book while you are eating a sandwich, riding the subway, waiting for the clothes washer to complete its' cycle, you can read a book while naked if you want to.  You can, with the application of logic or plain common sense, recognize when a book is bull shitting you and you can discredit the book. When the deacon or preacher or Sunday school teacher presents irrational concepts you can not in good conscience blurt out that the speaker is full of crap.  Books are preferable.

It would be a rare church conversation or lecture that did not resort to the standard set of "facts" that they tend to believe without a shred of evidence to support their beliefs.  The  peculiar part, that defies understanding, is that many of the congregants are intelligent well educated people who persist in believing ancient outlandish tales and are convinced that their holy book is the authentic word of god. 

Yes but those people still insist on believing the book is true. Same can be said for Scientology. No matter how much I say the book is full of inconsistencies and has no evidence supporting whatever people claim it to be, they still frustratingly believe in it.

Going to a lecture or an athiest church is no different but at least I get to leave my house and meet people.