Happy Atheist Forum

General => Current Events => Topic started by: Claireliontamer on August 09, 2017, 04:02:14 PM

Title: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Claireliontamer on August 09, 2017, 04:02:14 PM
Anyone else terrified we're on the verge of a massive bloodshed?
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Davin on August 09, 2017, 04:27:10 PM
Yeah, since Trump took office. Trump is a very unstable and irrational snowflake.
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Dave on August 09, 2017, 04:33:50 PM
So far all the pundits are saying it is just the same old same old rhetoric and boasting from NK. But the subtext seems to be some concern that old Blabbermouth/Twattweeter Trump will push the Paranoid One over the edge. Others say thst this is the only kind of langusge Kim  understands. However another said that wars mostly start in that part of the world due to perceived loss of face and mis-construing words.

Still listening for China's comment, seen nothing yet. Trump-the-Twatt used very similar words to those used just before the US a-bombed Jspan.

With Kim versus Trump, yes I am worried. I have always felt that the American presudent is given too much specific authority with regards to starting wars. Once a war has actually started, yes, there needs to be one CiC. But will Trump take counsel from his general staff? I somehow doubt it. He needs something to divert the attention from the total fuck-up he is making of the presidency. So why not fuck-up the world?
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Tom62 on August 09, 2017, 04:34:23 PM
Not worried at all. In the worst case North Korea and the US base in Guam will be obliterated.
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Arturo on August 09, 2017, 05:01:08 PM
Koreans are about honor and appearance. So is Donald Trump. Donald doesn't have the control over his emotions to block out negativity. Instead he reacts as if his life were in danger. Fear reactions are usually said to be fight or flight but there is another one "freeze". Trump seems to alwaya be in fight mode. Unless someone can punk him to flight or freeze mode than we're going to see more of the same.

He also appears to come off as an idiot to achieve his goals. I'm convinced of that now.
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Dave on August 09, 2017, 05:22:19 PM
Quote from: Tom62 on August 09, 2017, 04:34:23 PM
Not worried at all. In the worst case North Korea and the US base in Guam will be obliterated.

So, are we looking at conventional or nuclear obliteration here? If the latter both China and SK, plus all down wind, are in for a dose of radiation - something that neither will enjoy.

If conventional obliteration, like expending the greater part of the US's conventional stock in a couple if days of death, then first you spend a some time in logistics, getting all those ships and aircraft plus munitions close to the target. Can't do that without China noticing and feeling obliged to make some sort of move. Hmm, suppose they could re-purpose some IBMs with conventional heads, wonder how many. But that might leave a temporary big whole in the "retaliation shield" and Russia will take notice...

I doubt that China will allow the US or SK to take over NK, pain-in-the-arse they might be even to them.

Potentially this is not just another spat between egos.
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Claireliontamer on August 09, 2017, 06:30:55 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGzd54PXgAAIxwg.jpg)
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Dave on August 09, 2017, 06:34:08 PM
Quote from: Claireliontamer on August 09, 2017, 06:30:55 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGzd54PXgAAIxwg.jpg)

Only thing missing is the globe between them.
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Arturo on August 09, 2017, 07:13:27 PM
Quote from: Gloucester on August 09, 2017, 05:22:19 PM
Quote from: Tom62 on August 09, 2017, 04:34:23 PM
Not worried at all. In the worst case North Korea and the US base in Guam will be obliterated.

So, are we looking at conventional or nuclear obliteration here? If the latter both China and SK, plus all down wind, are in for a dose of radiation - something that neither will enjoy.

If conventional obliteration, like expending the greater part of the US's conventional stock in a couple if days of death, then first you spend a some time in logistics, getting all those ships and aircraft plus munitions close to the target. Can't do that without China noticing and feeling obliged to make some sort of move. Hmm, suppose they could re-purpose some IBMs with conventional heads, wonder how many. But that might leave a temporary big whole in the "retaliation shield" and Russia will take notice...

I doubt that China will allow the US or SK to take over NK, pain-in-the-arse they might be even to them.

Potentially this is not just another spat between egos.

Do you really think Trump will pay attention to all that? He'll just start dropping bombs any place he thinks will make him sound cool.
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: No one on August 09, 2017, 07:29:57 PM
Sum Dum Kim needs to have his tiny dick knocked in the dirt!
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Dave on August 09, 2017, 07:32:56 PM
Quote from: No one on August 09, 2017, 07:29:57 PM
Sum Dum Kim needs to have his tiny dick knocked in the dirt!

Naw, he needs a vise vice . . . Seconds thoughts "vise" is better.
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Sandra Craft on August 09, 2017, 08:17:42 PM
I'm worried -- Trump's trying to play he-man, and he's too stupid to realize that he's too stupid to bring that off.
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: No one on August 09, 2017, 08:35:11 PM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackie.com%2Ftrack-and-field%2Fimg%2Flayout%2Ficon_quote.jpg&hash=c5a9d5ac5c9c0366d813e18a50510fe9aa16bfc2)BooksCatsEtc:
Trump's trying to play he-man

Isn't he more like Orko? (https://web.stardock.net/images/smiles/themes/digicons/Thumbs%20Up.png)
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Biggus Dickus on August 09, 2017, 09:12:46 PM
I posted this earlier today in the "Today In History" Thread...seems relevant here so just going to paste and cut into this thread.

This picture is probably familiar to most people, but if not it is all that remains of a person who was once sitting calmly on the steps of a bank in the city of Hiroshima on August 6th 1945.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FRHfouYY.jpg&hash=bebf78267f8e3fcb996a9cdb4a4c05477b35ac63)

You can see from the outline that whomever it was they were holding a cane, so most likely an elderly person. One moment they were sitting calmly on the steps of the bank which was located about 800 feet from the epicenter when the bomb went off leaving this shadow imprinted into the stone.

It's not really their shadow, but actually a carbon imprint of their body seared into the concrete, organic residue and carbonized flesh is now part of the sidewalk.

After time and in an effort to save the image the steps were relocated to the Hiroshima Peace Memorial Museum (http://www.pcf.city.hiroshima.jp/top_e.html), where they're now preserved.

This will be humanities shared fate I believe. Nothing will remain of our global civilization but the collective, seared, shadowy remains like a giant mural upon the face of the earth, one large ghastly display of our combined wretchedness.


Don't believe me? Think I'm being overly pessimistic, or too dramatical?


It say's it all right here in "1 Caucasian (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2017/08/08/god-has-given-trump-authority-to-take-out-kim-jong-un-evangelical-adviser-says/?tid=sm_tw&utm_term=.be6c4b0021ae)
(I wrote Caucasian and not Corinthians on purpose, this is not a typo...)

According to Texas megachurch pastor Robert Jeffress, "God has given Trump authority to take out Kim Jong Un". When it comes to how we should deal with evildoers, the Bible, in the book of Romans, is very clear: God has endowed rulers full power to use whatever means necessary — including war — to stop evil," Jeffress said.

That's it right there,... it won't be Islamic terrorists that destroy us, it will Christians like this evangelical who will twist and manipulate Trump to do something idiotic.
Yes it will be Christians who destroy the earth and all humanity with it...bible hugging, Kim Davis types who destroy us all with their stupid belief.

Let us face it, Trump is not now nor has he never been a Christian, in fact if he was just a common man and not the President most of the evangelicals like Pastor Jeffress would condemn Trump to hell for his life of evil ways.

But Trump is the type of person, a man who cares nothing at all about anyone but himself who will allow himself to be led into believing he is in fact god anointed by those like this Pastor Jeffress. Men and women who pretend to believe in a god and the truth, but who really only care that their so called righteous and twisted moral deviance be taken seriously.

So here we stand today, with Trump and Kim Jong Un trading barbs back and forth, each of these god-like little men posturing to get an edge...today with words, tomorrow with guns, and the next day with...god help us?

I sadly feel we will be at war soon, but not only with N. Korea. China will become involved, as will Russia...most likely the entire Korean Peninsula will be ravaged, our only hope is that those closest to these two leaders will be able to do something to prevent the use of nuclear weapons.
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Icarus on August 09, 2017, 09:40:11 PM
Dammit Bruno, That is pretty close to the voice of doom.  I am much worried about the outcome of this absurd spat.  The NK guy is a weird dude that is held by his people to be godlike. That is scary. Our guy is also scary but not to the extent that Kim whatizname appears to be.

Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Firebird on August 09, 2017, 11:00:37 PM
Yeah, I'm worried, especially as the heat from the Russia investigation increases on Trump. No better way to distract everyone from that and rally the masses behind you than bombing someone far away. Right now North Korea is the most likely target, but they keep bringing up Iran too.
I can't tell how crazy Kim really is, whether he'd actually try to fire these things. Even he must know he's horribly outgunned if he took out a city or two on the west coast. But his position may also be more precarious than we think, since he's had to assassinate people like his own uncle to stay in power.

Quote from: Tom62 on August 09, 2017, 04:34:23 PM
Not worried at all. In the worst case North Korea and the US base in Guam will be obliterated.

What is wrong with you? You do realize you're still talking about millions of innocent people dying, right? Also, not worst case at all. Worst case North Korea takes out Guam and a city or two in the US (assuming their icbms really do work), then the US bombs back and invades with no regard for strategy. All that nuclear radiation drifts into China and South Korea, including Seoul. China will invade North Korea too because they are deathly afraid having a US ally like South Korea on their border (it's the only reason they still prop up the North), so we might end up in a fight with them too. And hey, guess what, China has nukes too!

Really my biggest fear is that Trump feels the walls closing in around him in regards to Russia and decides to attack first to distract. My only hope is that everyone refuses to follow his orders and the cabinet immediately invokes the 25th amendment to remove him from power. Or someone stops him some other way before he reads the codes off. Whatever it takes.
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Arturo on August 09, 2017, 11:54:19 PM
I assume they have a back up plan to disarm Trump. They might be in his office distracting him from NK. Then when he won't stop focusing on it they might have some other way to get him to "reconsider" or look at other options. Then when all deters fail and he actually tries to launch a nuke, he just presses a dummy button and they treat him like a prisoner until they can successfully brainwash him.
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Firebird on August 10, 2017, 02:09:33 AM
Quote from: Arturo on August 09, 2017, 11:54:19 PM
I assume they have a back up plan to disarm Trump. They might be in his office distracting him from NK. Then when he won't stop focusing on it they might have some other way to get him to "reconsider" or look at other options. Then when all deters fail and he actually tries to launch a nuke, he just presses a dummy button and they treat him like a prisoner until they can successfully brainwash him.

Which "they"?
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Arturo on August 10, 2017, 03:57:44 AM
Quote from: Firebird on August 10, 2017, 02:09:33 AM
Quote from: Arturo on August 09, 2017, 11:54:19 PM
I assume they have a back up plan to disarm Trump. They might be in his office distracting him from NK. Then when he won't stop focusing on it they might have some other way to get him to "reconsider" or look at other options. Then when all deters fail and he actually tries to launch a nuke, he just presses a dummy button and they treat him like a prisoner until they can successfully brainwash him.

Which "they"?

Espionage type people in the government. FBI, CIA, NSA, or Secret Service. Who knows really. Those guys plan for everything.
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Dave on August 10, 2017, 08:26:34 AM
Quote from: Arturo on August 10, 2017, 03:57:44 AM
Quote from: Firebird on August 10, 2017, 02:09:33 AM
Quote from: Arturo on August 09, 2017, 11:54:19 PM
I assume they have a back up plan to disarm Trump. They might be in his office distracting him from NK. Then when he won't stop focusing on it they might have some other way to get him to "reconsider" or look at other options. Then when all deters fail and he actually tries to launch a nuke, he just presses a dummy button and they treat him like a prisoner until they can successfully brainwash him.

Which "they"?

Espionage type people in the government. FBI, CIA, NSA, or Secret Service. Who knows really. Those guys plan for everything.

Whilst it might seem that there are factions in the security community in the States that are not exactly on Trump's side I would very much doubt that they would go that far. Not without the conspiracy involving most of the general staff and a good slice of the armed forces middle management.

I very much doubt that situation pertains, you Americans invest so much power and authotirity, in terms of making war, in your president he might as well be a king. I am not sure if there is even a mechanism where Congress can put reins on him. Better chance of someone putting a bullet through his head.
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Biggus Dickus on August 10, 2017, 02:01:24 PM
Quote from: Icarus on August 09, 2017, 09:40:11 PM
Dammit Bruno, That is pretty close to the voice of doom.  I am much worried about the outcome of this absurd spat.  The NK guy is a weird dude that is held by his people to be godlike. That is scary. Our guy is also scary but not to the extent that Kim whatizname appears to be.

It only gets worse...all of the major news outlets are now running stories similar to this one. "What Should You Do in Case of Nuclear Attack? 'Don't Run. Get Inside." (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/don-t-run-get-inside-public-need-know-how-respond-n750466?cid=sm_npd_nn_tw_ma)

Only six months into Trump's presidency (Sic), and we're at the "how to survive a nuclear attack" phase.  Just fucking fantastic.
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Arturo on August 10, 2017, 04:20:58 PM
Quote from: Gloucester on August 10, 2017, 08:26:34 AM
Quote from: Arturo on August 10, 2017, 03:57:44 AM
Quote from: Firebird on August 10, 2017, 02:09:33 AM
Quote from: Arturo on August 09, 2017, 11:54:19 PM
I assume they have a back up plan to disarm Trump. They might be in his office distracting him from NK. Then when he won't stop focusing on it they might have some other way to get him to "reconsider" or look at other options. Then when all deters fail and he actually tries to launch a nuke, he just presses a dummy button and they treat him like a prisoner until they can successfully brainwash him.

Which "they"?

Espionage type people in the government. FBI, CIA, NSA, or Secret Service. Who knows really. Those guys plan for everything.

Whilst it might seem that there are factions in the security community in the States that are not exactly on Trump's side I would very much doubt that they would go that far. Not without the conspiracy involving most of the general staff and a good slice of the armed forces middle management.

I very much doubt that situation pertains, you Americans invest so much power and authotirity, in terms of making war, in your president he might as well be a king. I am not sure if there is even a mechanism where Congress can put reins on him. Better chance of someone putting a bullet through his head.

I doubt there would be some sort of conspiracy between most of the staff. That many people cannot be allowed to know that. In these communities, I will take a Tom Clancy reference, "no one person knows everything". So there are things not even the President knows, there are things not even the head of the FBI, or what have you, knows. There could be enough people to do just what they need to do to stop him in the event of catastrophe. And as we've seen, they are not above spying on citizens, so certainly they are not above spying on their own government or other departments.

The President as well doesn't have any authority to declare war without congress approval. That does not count as armed conflicts like the middle east. War is between two or more nations. Espionage also does not count for war because nobody is supposed to know anyways. Yes they are war-like acts but they are not war itself. The President has the authority to wage war-like acts but as far as what he/she does, I think they leave most of the decision-making and planning to the respective departments and the President just approves or declines certain things. Like signing a bill into law.
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Dave on August 10, 2017, 04:45:39 PM

QuoteWar Powers

Congress holds the power to declare war. As a result, the President cannot declare war without their approval. However, as the Commander in Chief of the armed forces, Presidents have sent troops to battle without an official war declaration (which happened in Vietnam and Korea). The 1973 War Powers Act attempted to define when and how the President could send troops to battle by adding strict time frames for reporting to Congress after sending troops to war, in addition to other measures, however it has not had much effect (see "War Powers Resolution" section in the Commander in Chief Powers  article).

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/executive_power

QuoteThe Constitution may give Congress the ability to declare war, but in reality it has little ability to stop the President if he's determined to strike North Korea.
That's because the President has his own authority as commander in chief to defend the country from threats, and in practice the Executive Branch has used that authority for a range of military actions.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/09/politics/trump-bomb-north-korea-congress/index.html



OK, let's not call it a war, let's call it a "defensive action with the potential to severely piss-off a major, nuclear, world power and do serious damage to America's relationship with a very, very important strategic and trading ally if handled the way America usually does."

And it looks like Congress has limited sway over the POTUS's decisions in this area.

I can only hope that the anti-missile defence systems that, no doubt, Anerica is rushing get in a ring around NK and Guam do their job. Having every missile either fail or be intercepted (assuming they are ever launched) and destroyed might nske Kim think twice.

A lot depends on your definition of war here, Arturo, tens of thousands, or more, killed and cities wrecked sounds awfully like one.
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Tom62 on August 10, 2017, 05:48:55 PM
From Facebook: When two countries go to war for some reason, their presidents should fight 1 on 1 to death, instead of sending young people to die.
Now that is an idea that I fully support.

BTW in my previous post I said "Not worried at all. In the worst case North Korea and the US base in Guam will be obliterated." That was of course a joke.
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Firebird on August 10, 2017, 09:50:03 PM
Quote from: Tom62 on August 10, 2017, 05:48:55 PM
From Facebook: When two countries go to war for some reason, their presidents should fight 1 on 1 to death, instead of sending young people to die.
Now that is an idea that I fully support.

BTW in my previous post I said "Not worried at all. In the worst case North Korea and the US base in Guam will be obliterated." That was of course a joke.

If so, then I apologize. Poe's Law and all.
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Arturo on August 11, 2017, 12:58:03 AM
If Trump fought Kim, I think Kim would win.
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Tom62 on August 11, 2017, 06:25:53 AM
Quote from: Firebird on August 10, 2017, 09:50:03 PM
Quote from: Tom62 on August 10, 2017, 05:48:55 PM
From Facebook: When two countries go to war for some reason, their presidents should fight 1 on 1 to death, instead of sending young people to die.
Now that is an idea that I fully support.

BTW in my previous post I said "Not worried at all. In the worst case North Korea and the US base in Guam will be obliterated." That was of course a joke.

If so, then I apologize. Poe's Law and all.

I'm to blame, Dutch humor can be very black, sarcastic and easily be misunderstood.
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Dave on August 11, 2017, 01:02:44 PM
Sounds like The Wanker is still winding up for World War Three.
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Davin on August 11, 2017, 03:33:05 PM
So North Korea has a history of being supported by Russia. Putin is mad a Trump both for not yet removing the Magnitsky sanctions and then adding more. And now North Korea is trolling our Pumpkin in Chief. So maybe that's all related.

That's not the craziest of conspiracy theories.
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Dave on August 11, 2017, 07:26:06 PM
Having mentioned a build-up of US forces around the Korean peninsula it seems there has not been such. One of tbe editors of Janes saud, on the BBC, that there was one carrier - not "carrier group", single ship - currently in harbour in Japan. The only other major assets in the area are the aurcraft at Guam and any subs lurking.

Thus, short of ICBMs from the States itself about the only real hit available is another mass cruise missile attack. But he said that the American ammunition reserves have already been run down lately and replacement might take months if not years.

Strategically can Anerica afford another offensive move? Is Trump all hot air blather and will the Russo-Chinese plan (https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/11/foreign-minister-says-theres-a-russian-chinese-plan-underway-to-defuse-us-north-korea-crisis.html) actually save his bacon. Though he will distort that to seem that was his plan all along of course.
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: jumbojak on August 12, 2017, 02:24:41 AM
I find it hard to believe that a carrier would be anywhere without it's support ships. Even in an allied port.
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Dave on August 12, 2017, 06:46:45 AM
Quote from: jumbojak on August 12, 2017, 02:24:41 AM
I find it hard to believe that a carrier would be anywhere without it's support ships. Even in an allied port.

Good point! I think he probably meant, "... a group of carriers...". The implication being that even the one "nearby" carrier is not rushing into a tactical position. It is a somewhat different situation from the begining of the first gulf conflict when naval manouvers figured largely. If large assets were being diverted to the area from far away I am sure the pundits would have made mention of it by now. It pould be part of the "threat" language as well I would think.

Unless there are more covert assets, subs, heavily involved that is a good sign. Trouble is it would take only one sub to "do the job" on NK if it went nuclear.

But only a madman would go nuclear over this. Shit, we have two mad men - one a demi-god and the other a wannabe.
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: jumbojak on August 12, 2017, 03:11:09 PM
One sub would do the job. So would one carrier with its support ships. I think we have two battle groups in the middle east area, one in the Gulf and the other in the Mediterranean, and they can move plenty fast if needed. Then you have assault fleets roving around, plus land based forces all over the Pacific. Aircraft in Guam and army personnel in S. Korea. Lots of options if the N. Koreans fail in their initial attack.
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Dave on August 12, 2017, 04:27:33 PM
Quote from: jumbojak on August 12, 2017, 03:11:09 PM
One sub would do the job. So would one carrier with its support ships. I think we have two battle groups in the middle east area, one in the Gulf and the other in the Mediterranean, and they can move plenty fast if needed. Then you have assault fleets roving around, plus land based forces all over the Pacific. Aircraft in Guam and army personnel in S. Korea. Lots of options if the N. Koreans fail in their initial attack.

NKs "initial attack" will, surely, be automatically a failure - in terms of a "victory" -  unless they wipe out America's entire ability to retaliate on day one. Yes, they might wipe out Guam or even West Coast cities if their ability matches their rhetoric but, given the chance to retaliate NK will be a smoking, and maybe a glowing, hole quite quickly I would think!

Despite his tactics one can only hope that a small kernel of sanity remains in Kim's head, which I am sure he knows will be for the chop - one way or another - very quickly if he actually does any damage.

The promised date was "mid August" IIRC, so only a few days to wait to see if madness rules.
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Asmodean on August 15, 2017, 02:46:34 PM
So apparently, North Korea backed off its "Guam must DIE. IMMEDIATELY!  >:(" rhetoric.

...Does that mean that Mr. Kim is a bigger man than Mr. Trump?
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Dave on August 15, 2017, 02:57:38 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on August 15, 2017, 02:46:34 PM
So apparently, North Korea backed off its "Guam must DIE. IMMEDIATELY!  >:(" rhetoric.

...Does that mean that Mr. Kim is a bigger man than Mr. Trump?

Well.. he looks fatter.

Sorry but you are not allowed to view spoiler contents.
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Asmodean on August 15, 2017, 03:04:21 PM
As in, he may be short, but he has girth? Well, they do say that it be more important than length...

...There was also something about small hands...  :???:







...Them images, them's gonna fester.  :(
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Arturo on August 15, 2017, 04:11:08 PM
I guess China introduced sanctions to the U.N. for North Korea?
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Dave on August 15, 2017, 04:30:26 PM
Quote from: Arturo on August 15, 2017, 04:11:08 PM
I guess China introduced sanctions to the U.N. for North Korea?
China has said they will comply with the latest UN sanctions. Bang goes a third of NK's income if they actually do. Perhaps Kim can't find the money for his missiles?
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Arturo on August 15, 2017, 05:02:31 PM
Quotea third of NK's income

I doubt that will effect the corruption at all. Will probably only mess up the peasants. I've heard there are rich people in NK. Who probably get money in illegitimate ways seeing as their economy isn't really worth anything anyway to make anyone rich. I don't think Kim is worried. This is probably as symbolic as Russia banning adoption of healthy children to the United States. Which would explain why China is complying because they know it doesn't affect their friend Kim and whoever else they do business with there.
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Dave on August 15, 2017, 05:22:15 PM
Quote from: Arturo on August 15, 2017, 05:02:31 PM
Quotea third of NK's income

I doubt that will effect the corruption at all. Will probably only mess up the peasants. I've heard there are rich people in NK. Who probably get money in illegitimate ways seeing as their economy isn't really worth anything anyway to make anyone rich. I don't think Kim is worried. This is probably as symbolic as Russia banning adoption of healthy children to the United States. Which would explain why China is complying because they know it doesn't affect their friend Kim and whoever else they do business with there.

Good point on the illegitimate incomes, but can't find much mention of such. Though, like most countries, I am sure it exists, what part goes into the national purse is another matter. There is some info on the NK economy in this article:

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/02/26/how-kim-jong-un-is-bankrolling-his-nuclear-ambitions.html
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: jumbojak on August 16, 2017, 03:43:44 AM
I watched part of an interesting documentary about the breakdown of government control in N. Korea. There are markets in the streets which is illegal but the army and police have been unable to put a stop to it. People are challenging the army in public, there was video of a woman berating an officer who tried to keep people from using her illegal taxi service.

Admittedly, that's not much but perhaps the state isn't as powerful within the borders as the propaganda would have us believe. You never know, we might see the end of the regime there in the next few years.
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Dark Lightning on August 16, 2017, 04:35:42 AM
Quote from: Gloucester on August 12, 2017, 06:46:45 AM
Quote from: jumbojak on August 12, 2017, 02:24:41 AM
I find it hard to believe that a carrier would be anywhere without it's support ships. Even in an allied port.

Good point! I think he probably meant, "... a group of carriers...". The implication being that even the one "nearby" carrier is not rushing into a tactical position. It is a somewhat different situation from the begining of the first gulf conflict when naval manouvers figured largely. If large assets were being diverted to the area from far away I am sure the pundits would have made mention of it by now. It pould be part of the "threat" language as well I would think.

Unless there are more covert assets, subs, heavily involved that is a good sign. Trouble is it would take only one sub to "do the job" on NK if it went nuclear.

But only a madman would go nuclear over this. Shit, we have two mad men - one a demi-god and the other a wannabe.

The terminology is "carrier group". There will be any number of destroyers, a cruiser or two, maybe a tender (for repairs), and a sub or two associated with the aircraft carrier. When I served in the US Navy in the early '70s on a destroyer, the term was "plane guarding", IIRC. Though how a destroyer guarded an airplane is beyond me.  ::)  Since I worked in the engine room, I didn't have a lot of knowledge about what went on further up...or below, for that matter. I've learned more about naval operations from reading Tom Clancy than when I was in the service.
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Asmodean on August 16, 2017, 05:38:51 AM
Carrier groups are good and well, but remember that DRPK has thousands of conventional guns manned and already pointing at your ally's major metropolitan area and there are more ways of delivering nukes to target than on top of an ICBM.

I think a military confrontation with DRPK would turn into a humanitarian nightmare, meat grinder style. There is no reason why their regime would in its going down forego leaving a sea of preferably radioactive fire behind.
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Dave on August 16, 2017, 08:27:03 AM
Quote from: jumbojak on August 16, 2017, 03:43:44 AM
I watched part of an interesting documentary about the breakdown of government control in N. Korea. There are markets in the streets which is illegal but the army and police have been unable to put a stop to it. People are challenging the army in public, there was video of a woman berating an officer who tried to keep people from using her illegal taxi service.

Admittedly, that's not much but perhaps the state isn't as powerful within the borders as the propaganda would have us believe. You never know, we might see the end of the regime there in the next few years.

IIRC there are some simularities there with East Germany just before it fell. Lot's of shouting on the part of the top man but the ground troops feeling less and less able, or maybe willing, to use violence or arrest to keep control. And many regimes have fallen once official violence exceeds a certain level.
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Asmodean on August 16, 2017, 10:03:28 AM
Mmh... Skeptical.

There are no indications, of which I'm aware, of the North Korean military getting anything but stronger in the recent years. The Eastern Bloc armed forces were not nearly as fanatical, or lived in nearly as much of a bubble.
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Dave on August 16, 2017, 12:17:39 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on August 16, 2017, 10:03:28 AM
Mmh... Skeptical.

There are no indications, of which I'm aware, of the North Korean military getting anything but stronger in the recent years. The Eastern Bloc armed forces were not nearly as fanatical, or lived in nearly as much of a bubble.

There was an article on the radio a vouple of weeks ago where the reporter said that the NK border guards soent more time watching one another, so many attempted desertions, than watching what the foreigners were up to. IIRC there was also a feeling thst they did not want to fight the South Koreans - too many family ties, which are strong forces in Asia.

They may have numbers but whether thry have discipline and the will . . . Remember Iraq when they had agents behind the ftontbline to shoot any deserters? I get the feeling NK suffers the same problem, which is basically unstable.
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Asmodean on August 16, 2017, 12:21:52 PM
Unstable? I would not say that. Unsustainable would be a more accurate description, I think.

Yes, DRPK border guards do watch each other from their posts, but it's more proactive behavior rather than a reaction to mass desertions (They want to prevent any and all desertions). DRPK does not have a mass military flight problem. If they did, whole battalions would cross the border unchecked by their own.

I think comparisons with Iraq, The Third Reich or other such heaps of bloody mess are at their core wrong. Look at what we do know about DRPK. It's very different a system to any of those used for comparison. They are easily the most isolated nation on Earth, even though they maintain relations, often amicable enough at that, with far more countries than they do not. Their propaganda machine is often justified by the rhetoric of their enemies. they are surrounded by mostly-unfriendly regimes. If anything, you may want to compare them with Burma to some degree... People bothering me again. I'll return to this when I'm able.
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Dave on August 16, 2017, 12:56:15 PM
One could argue that instability and unsustainability hold hands when it comes to running nation states, one follows the other whichever leads.

Pergaps direct comparidon between regijes is a tad unsafe but, human and personal political nature being what it is, perhaps one can connect enough dots to "morph" one overall shape to another. I would not attempt to match, say, Iran onto a common shape, much closer to bring a democracy, but Saddam's Iraq might be a better fit. Never gonna be perfect but...

Trouble is that exercise tends to be hindsight, not enough concrete matches to predict, just take a guess. History is only of use if it is a tool to make useful predictions.

Where is Hari Seldon when we need him!?
Title: Re: North Korea and USA shenanigans...
Post by: Asmodean on August 16, 2017, 02:02:37 PM
Where indeed..?  ;)

Or M.C. Escher. He would do as well, what with the mental contortionism his paintings invoke.

Yes, I agree that unsustainability leads to instability. DRPK... Not there yet. They were on the verge, but Kim the Third managed to consolidate power, and the way in which he did that did not seem to bite him on the ass too much.

My thoughts are that he's trying to seem, possibly even be, more like grandpa than his father. The people of North Korea may well be willing to forgive a whole fucking lot for that alone.