Happy Atheist forum

General => Current Events => Topic started by: Firebird on June 28, 2017, 05:42:26 PM

Title: Well, that's one way to enforce church/state separation
Post by: Firebird on June 28, 2017, 05:42:26 PM
Arkansas decided to put a monument of the 10 Commandments in front of its capitol building. It's illegal of course, so the ACLU, FFRF, and Satanic Temple were all set to sue. But the day after it was installed,  one idiot solved the whole problem by crashing his car into it. Maybe we should chip in for his bail?  ;D

 
Ten Commandments Monument Destroyed (http://www.arkansasmatters.com/news/local-news/ten-commandments-monument-destroyed/752682207)
Title: Re: Well, that's one way to enforce church/state separation
Post by: Arturo on June 28, 2017, 05:46:14 PM
Bahaha
Title: Re: Well, that's one way to enforce church/state separation
Post by: BooksCatsEtc on June 29, 2017, 12:10:45 AM
While I do not condone vandalism, blah blah blah, I'm hugely amused that this is the second time he's done it.

Edited to add this:  he's definitely not an atheist, but he is on our side (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2017/06/28/why-one-man-keeps-ramming-his-car-into-ten-commandments-statues-on-government-property/?tid=ss_fb&utm_term=.e2a990892aa1)
Title: Re: Well, that's one way to enforce church/state separation
Post by: OldGit on June 29, 2017, 09:28:30 AM
When the IRA took a dislike to the statue of Lord Nelson in Dublin, they blew it up.  Much easier.
Title: Re: Well, that's one way to enforce church/state separation
Post by: Icarus on July 04, 2017, 12:41:50 AM

Rant :rant1:

We are going the other way here in the land of the newly weds and nearly deads.  My much disliked governor  (Governor Scott of Florida) just signed a bill that allows any individual to influence whatever is being taught in science classes of our public schools. The fundies are all atwitter now. They can take issue with the teaching of evolution as opposed to creationism.  Also they can take issue with the notion of climate change.  Not only take issue, but they have the potential for forcing science classes to teach that creation is as valid a concept as evolution. And the beat goes on. We are not the only state that has dreamed up such an outrage. Several others have bought into the belief that parents can rightfully exercise influence on what is being taught in our science classes and what our libraries hold.  That annoys the hell outa' me.  The very idea that some dumb ass parent is more authoritative about established science than credentialed and educated teachers is most upsetting. 

Indiana, Alabama, and a few others are already there. ..... Kansas, Mississippi, Arkansas, Iowa and Oklahoma will not be far behind.

Title: Re: Well, that's one way to enforce church/state separation
Post by: Dave on July 04, 2017, 03:19:03 AM

Rant :rant1:

We are going the other way here in the land of the newly weds and nearly deads.  My much disliked governor  (Governor Scott of Florida) just signed a bill that allows any individual to influence whatever is being taught in science classes of our public schools. The fundies are all atwitter now. They can take issue with the teaching of evolution as opposed to creationism.  Also they can take issue with the notion of climate change.  Not only take issue, but they have the potential for forcing science classes to teach that creation is as valid a concept as evolution. And the beat goes on. We are not the only state that has dreamed up such an outrage. Several others have bought into the belief that parents can rightfully exercise influence on what is being taught in our science classes and what our libraries hold.  That annoys the hell outa' me.  The very idea that some dumb ass parent is more authoritative about established science than credentialed and educated teachers is most upsetting. 

Indiana, Alabama, and a few others are already there. ..... Kansas, Mississippi, Arkansas, Iowa and Oklahoma will not be far behind.

All the usual suspects then?

I will never understand America.

Title: Re: Well, that's one way to enforce church/state separation
Post by: Icarus on July 04, 2017, 03:52:08 AM
Rant :rant1:

We are going the other way here in the land of the newly weds and nearly deads.  My much disliked governor  (Governor Scott of Florida) just signed a bill that allows any individual to influence whatever is being taught in science classes of our public schools. The fundies are all atwitter now. They can take issue with the teaching of evolution as opposed to creationism.  Also they can take issue with the notion of climate change.  Not only take issue, but they have the potential for forcing science classes to teach that creation is as valid a concept as evolution. And the beat goes on. We are not the only state that has dreamed up such an outrage. Several others have bought into the belief that parents can rightfully exercise influence on what is being taught in our science classes and what our libraries hold.  That annoys the hell outa' me.  The very idea that some dumb ass parent is more authoritative about established science than credentialed and educated teachers is most upsetting. 

Indiana, Alabama, and a few others are already there. ..... Kansas, Mississippi, Arkansas, Iowa and Oklahoma will not be far behind.

Title: Re: Well, that's one way to enforce church/state separation
Post by: Firebird on July 04, 2017, 04:36:00 AM

All the usual suspects then?

I will never understand America.

I'm beginning to think I won't either, and I fucking live here. At this point I'd be fine surgically cutting away the entire South. We can keep North Carolina and Virginia at this point, anything else south and west up to Texas can leave. That includes Kansas. Maybe we can keep Florida (minus the panhandle, fuck them and let them join Alabama like they always wanted) and a few isolated cities like New Orleans and Austin. We'll airdrop supplies and science textbooks to them a la West Berlin. Seriously, would we miss them? They use way more government benefits than the rest of the country and put less in than they get back, so the rest of us would save money and not have to deal with their bullshit anymore. Let them become the fundamentalist, racist backwater they always wanted to be.
Title: Re: Well, that's one way to enforce church/state separation
Post by: Dave on July 04, 2017, 09:18:05 AM

All the usual suspects then?

I will never understand America.

I'm beginning to think I won't either, and I fucking live here. At this point I'd be fine surgically cutting away the entire South. We can keep North Carolina and Virginia at this point, anything else south and west up to Texas can leave. That includes Kansas. Maybe we can keep Florida (minus the panhandle, fuck them and let them join Alabama like they always wanted) and a few isolated cities like New Orleans and Austin. We'll airdrop supplies and science textbooks to them a la West Berlin. Seriously, would we miss them? They use way more government benefits than the rest of the country and put less in than they get back, so the rest of us would save money and not have to deal with their bullshit anymore. Let them become the fundamentalist, racist backwater they always wanted to be.

Our, slightly similar, situation with Northern Ireland is scaled down to fit us - square mile-wise snyway. Our Idiots-in-charge in Westminster have to kow-tow to a bunch of 18th century minds, set to grab as much as they can, to keep some semblance of power.

Ideology, religion, tribalism and greed, the true evils of mankind in the mass.
Title: Re: Well, that's one way to enforce church/state separation
Post by: Essie Mae on July 04, 2017, 09:18:40 PM

All the usual suspects then?

I will never understand America.

I'm beginning to think I won't either, and I fucking live here. At this point I'd be fine surgically cutting away the entire South. We can keep North Carolina and Virginia at this point, anything else south and west up to Texas can leave. That includes Kansas. Maybe we can keep Florida (minus the panhandle, fuck them and let them join Alabama like they always wanted) and a few isolated cities like New Orleans and Austin. We'll airdrop supplies and science textbooks to them a la West Berlin. Seriously, would we miss them? They use way more government benefits than the rest of the country and put less in than they get back, so the rest of us would save money and not have to deal with their bullshit anymore. Let them become the fundamentalist, racist backwater they always wanted to be.

Our, slightly similar, situation with Northern Ireland is scaled down to fit us - square mile-wise snyway. Our Idiots-in-charge in Westminster have to kow-tow to a bunch of 18th century minds, set to grab as much as they can, to keep some semblance of power.

Ideology, religion, tribalism and greed, the true evils of mankind in the mass.

Sorry if I'm repeating myself but a NI relation of mine whom I couldn't easily reject as a FB friend, recently called for the cessation of 'all this Evolution rubbish being taught in schools and a return to true biblical creationism'. You're right when you say some places just want to backwaters. However, a couple of NI citizens were lamenting on the radio yesterday that they felt disenfranchised by the disproportionate religious right representation in their government, so there are some normal people there.
Title: Re: Well, that's one way to enforce church/state separation
Post by: Firebird on July 04, 2017, 09:25:47 PM
I actually didn't realize Northern Ireland was like that. Is this both the British and Irish who live there, or just one group? 
Title: Re: Well, that's one way to enforce church/state separation
Post by: xSilverPhinx on July 04, 2017, 09:31:19 PM
I'm curious, since the southern part of Ireland is mostly Catholic, do they also have herds of rabid lunatics going on about how evolution shouldn't be taught in schools? Catholicism has its own slew of problems but at least the official position is that evolution is accepted fact.
Title: Re: Well, that's one way to enforce church/state separation
Post by: Dave on July 04, 2017, 09:36:12 PM

All the usual suspects then?

I will never understand America.

I'm beginning to think I won't either, and I fucking live here. At this point I'd be fine surgically cutting away the entire South. We can keep North Carolina and Virginia at this point, anything else south and west up to Texas can leave. That includes Kansas. Maybe we can keep Florida (minus the panhandle, fuck them and let them join Alabama like they always wanted) and a few isolated cities like New Orleans and Austin. We'll airdrop supplies and science textbooks to them a la West Berlin. Seriously, would we miss them? They use way more government benefits than the rest of the country and put less in than they get back, so the rest of us would save money and not have to deal with their bullshit anymore. Let them become the fundamentalist, racist backwater they always wanted to be.

Our, slightly similar, situation with Northern Ireland is scaled down to fit us - square mile-wise snyway. Our Idiots-in-charge in Westminster have to kow-tow to a bunch of 18th century minds, set to grab as much as they can, to keep some semblance of power.

Ideology, religion, tribalism and greed, the true evils of mankind in the mass.

Sorry if I'm repeating myself but a NI relation of mine whom I couldn't easily reject as a FB friend, recently called for the cessation of 'all this Evolution rubbish being taught in schools and a return to true biblical creationism'. You're right when you say some places just want to backwaters. However, a couple of NI citizens were lamenting on the radio yesterday that they felt disenfranchised by the disproportionate religious right representation in their government, so there are some normal people there.
Yes, and, as is demonstrated here there are normal people in Anerica as well.

Just that the religious right so often seem to get a big share of the authority and influence. Despite the supposed split between state and church.

Anyone else here learn how to say and spell "antidisestablishmentarianism" (still the longest "non-coined, non-technical word in English) just because it was a long word? It was years later I learned what it meant. The religionistas have been fighting their loss of establishment for a long time.
Title: Re: Well, that's one way to enforce church/state separation
Post by: Dave on July 04, 2017, 09:40:32 PM
I'm curious, since the southern part of Ireland is mostly Catholic, do they also have herds of rabid lunatics going on about how evolution shouldn't be taught in schools? Catholicism has its own slew of problems but at least the official position is that evolution is accepted fact.

I think it might be the Protestants, as in the DUP and the like, who are the backward ones over there. The Anglican Church (of which the Churchbof Ireland is a member) also officially recognises evolution IIRC.
Title: Re: Well, that's one way to enforce church/state separation
Post by: xSilverPhinx on July 04, 2017, 09:50:12 PM
I'm curious, since the southern part of Ireland is mostly Catholic, do they also have herds of rabid lunatics going on about how evolution shouldn't be taught in schools? Catholicism has its own slew of problems but at least the official position is that evolution is accepted fact.

I think it might be the Protestants, as in the DUP and the like, who are the backward ones over there. The Anglican Church (of which the Churchbof Ireland is a member) also officially recognises evolution IIRC.

:notsure: So the Anglican and Catholic Churches really are basically the same crap, they just have different monarchs as their Head. 
Title: Re: Well, that's one way to enforce church/state separation
Post by: Icarus on July 04, 2017, 11:36:24 PM
I'm curious, since the southern part of Ireland is mostly Catholic, do they also have herds of rabid lunatics going on about how evolution shouldn't be taught in schools? Catholicism has its own slew of problems but at least the official position is that evolution is accepted fact.

I think it might be the Protestants, as in the DUP and the like, who are the backward ones over there. The Anglican Church (of which the Churchbof Ireland is a member) also officially recognises evolution IIRC.

Glos we have a confusingly mixed bag over here.  There are countless denominations and splinter groups, each of them with their own take about the rules of righteousness. We have large numbers of adherents for the various major brands. Baptists, with perhaps the largest number of churches, are generally considered as the more uptight of the major league players. They are followed in terms of narrow mindedness by the Presbyterians. Our Methodists are generally a little bit more laid back but they too can get a bit obnoxious. Episcopals, I believe, are using doctrine similar to the COE. Catholics you know about.  Mormans are plentiful, wealthy and powerful. Jehovah Witnesses are way out on the edge of reality but they are to be admired, even respected, for their sense of co-operation and single minded effort to build churches and spread the word. They are also a pain in the ass when they continue to knock on ones door.

There a countless outfits church groups that have invented their own kind of religion, mostly in the general direction of Christianity. Our Pentecostals are seriously fucked up because they believe in the rapture, speaking in tongues, and other stuff that might cause one to suspect them to be on a permanent  opiod high. Their churches sometimes have a layer of sawdust on the floor because some of the congregation become so hyped during the services that they roll around on the floor. They are impolitely called "holy Rollers".  It is not at all unusual for one of the holy rollers to achieve an orgasm during their flights of passion. Whats not to like about that? And why would you not want to go to church again really soon? Getting your rocks off without offending God or Jesus has to be the summum bonum.

It is easy for a would be preacher to find that god has "called" him...or her.  They can then start their own church of whatever persuasion they might like.  It can be called some clever, or not so clever name, like The Church of Everlasting Faith or some such. Invent your own title.  These are not affiliated with the major brands.  Some of our most wealthy pastors have taken this path to riches. The aspiring pastor needs to be an exceptional marketer and pitch man (or woman)  to pull off the big dollar scam that he wishes to perpetrate.  We have some megachurches, not at all affiliated with the major brand names. They have thousands of regular attendants who lay some serious bread (money) on the church and thus the pastor. He/she does not need a theological education or degree of any kind. All the while the churches that they have invented, and let us give the hucksters credit for cleverness and business acumen, are given a tax exempt status.  The property as well as the preacher person gets a special consideration for tax relief. ......................Oh Shit I have gone off the deep end here about a subject that can influence me to get all in a dither. ..........I will try to control myself as soon as I can get to the liquor cabinet. What the hell it must be five o'clock somewhere.

The shorter answer to the question is that we have a lot of different church deals going on, hundreds of them. Every one of them claiming to be the only one that has discovered the greatest, most god inspired spiritual truths..

Megachurch: an edifice that may have a seating capacity of ten thousand or more, and which are so busy on Sundays that extra assignment traffic police are required to see that traffic is moving with some degree of  efficiency and order.    See Joel O'steen and others of the type. There are more than a few. 
Title: Re: Well, that's one way to enforce church/state separation
Post by: Dave on July 05, 2017, 07:42:20 AM
^
Well, Icarus, I recognise what you say. But is it not all part of the paradox of America? A land where, somehow, the people try to combine a strong sense of personal indrpendence with a strong sense of national coherence?

Of course, it never works that way.cliques form where all members are, sort of, on the same hymn sheet but with slightly different tunes. "The Land of the Free" only applies fully to certain groups, "The Great American Dream" was always a fantasy or myth.

All countries suffer this to a degree, it's just that America shouts it the loudest, "Look at us!"  and thus demonstrates its built in hypocracy on tbe world stage.
Title: Re: Well, that's one way to enforce church/state separation
Post by: Claireliontamer on July 05, 2017, 10:28:16 AM
The Catholics there are pretty chilled out about evolution, it's abortion that really winds them up.
Title: Re: Well, that's one way to enforce church/state separation
Post by: Essie Mae on July 05, 2017, 12:27:10 PM
I actually didn't realize Northern Ireland was like that. Is this both the British and Irish who live there, or just one group?

It's the 'prods'. I guess the RCs are OK with evolution because the pope accepts it. But as most schools still exist on sectarian lines, even though officially there are supposed to be more integrated schools, religious 'market forces' ensure that a very high proportion of the schools have mostly Protestant or mostly RC pupils. the Protestant ones are constantly under pressure from the churches to teach creationism in science lessons and in the past the Protestant churches have insisted that they have control of what is taught to ensure a solid underpinning of biblical belief, and this was made law in order to get some kind of agreement for integrated schools.

 Incidentally the RCs in NI are Brits too, although they would vote for the Irish Nationalist party and want to see a united Ireland with the Brits kicked out. And yes, they do identify as Irish even though, as already stated, they are Britsh. The protestants vote for the DUP.

A friend related this anecdote to me a few weeks ago. Her cousin's English daughter, an agnostic from an agnostic family went to an integrated school in NI for a couple years because her father's job took them there. She had one friend who was a catholic, and one who was a Protestant and the theee were inseparable for two years. She kept in touch with both for a while, but the Catholic and Protestant girls never spoke to each other again. Of course there could have been many reasons but they declined the offer of a visit to the U.K. because they were invited together. How true is that? I don't know, but both sides tend to confine their friendships to their own groups, which is a great shame because they all tend to be very kind and hospitable.

Religion  :sad sigh: :sad sigh: :sad sigh:
Title: Re: Well, that's one way to enforce church/state separation
Post by: Arturo on July 06, 2017, 01:29:32 AM
The Catholics there are pretty chilled out about evolution, it's abortion that really winds them up.
it's abortion that really winds them up.

abortion
(http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/117/012/tumblr_lj57goZvBh1qdjdp1o1_500.jpg)

They will fall. They always fall. Muahaha
Title: Re: Well, that's one way to enforce church/state separation
Post by: Icarus on July 16, 2017, 10:08:46 PM
A rather well done and moderately persuasive op-ed piece appeared in my newspaper today. The headline: We Should Teach How Religion Has Shaped U.S. History. The piece was written by one of the faculty heads at Ashland University.  His reasoning is that our nation has long been influenced, one way or the other, by  religion.  His position is that understanding that influence is essential to the understanding of our nations history. The author says that the ACLU agrees that it would be difficult to teach art, music, literature, and most social studies without considering religious influences.

I am inclined to agree that such a study could be a useful part of a civics course, even a history course.  On the other hand the notion of including that line of study could and probably would be another of the sneaky ways to introduce religion into the High School curriculum.

From our HAF point of view it could be a tool to show that most of the worlds religions are based on fantasy and that there is not a shred of evidence for the existence of a supreme being.  From their point of view it could have us persuade our youth that the love of Jesus is a human necessity.

And the beat goes on......................
Title: Re: Well, that's one way to enforce church/state separation
Post by: Dave on July 16, 2017, 10:32:50 PM
A rather well done and moderately persuasive op-ed piece appeared in my newspaper today. The headline: We Should Teach How Religion Has Shaped U.S. History. The piece was written by one of the faculty heads at Ashland University.  His reasoning is that our nation has long been influenced, one way or the other, by  religion.  His position is that understanding that influence is essential to the understanding of our nations history. The author says that the ACLU agrees that it would be difficult to teach art, music, literature, and most social studies without considering religious influences.

I am inclined to agree that such a study could be a useful part of a civics course, even a history course.  On the other hand the notion of including that line of study could and probably would be another of the sneaky ways to introduce religion into the High School curriculum.

From our HAF point of view it could be a tool to show that most of the worlds religions are based on fantasy and that there is not a shred of evidence for the existence of a supreme being.  From their point of view it could have us persuade our youth that the love of Jesus is a human necessity.

And the beat goes on......................

Yeah, add a good dose of critical analysis into the mix and it might work. But CA is anathema to religionistas is it not?