Author Topic: Cultural Appropriation  (Read 886 times)

BooksCatsEtc

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Re: Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2017, 12:32:48 PM »

 I wonder how New Zealand Maoris, in general, feel about  members of the "All Blacks" rugby team, of other than Maori descent, using an imitation of the "haka" at matches? That ceremonial war dance is a very important part of the Maori heritage.


I found this
which seems to suggest they aren't all happy about how popular it has become in mainstream culture.

I wonder how many people would know about the Haka without rugby?

I remember reading about it before that, but the first time I ever saw it was a rugby game.
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Dave

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Re: Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2017, 12:44:17 PM »

 I wonder how New Zealand Maoris, in general, feel about  members of the "All Blacks" rugby team, of other than Maori descent, using an imitation of the "haka" at matches? That ceremonial war dance is a very important part of the Maori heritage.


I found this
which seems to suggest they aren't all happy about how popular it has become in mainstream culture.

I wonder how many people would know about the Haka without rugby?

I remember reading about it before that, but the first time I ever saw it was a rugby game.

Yup, an important cultural heritage has, basically, become entertainment.

Misappropriation.

They once screened a Haka "duel" between two Maori "warriors" with full body tattoos on an Open University programme. Incredible! Sometimes a battle could be cancelled if it was judged one warrior, or all warriors en-mass, performed far better than the other side. Other cultures had similar practices but the Haka is special.
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Dave

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Re: Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2017, 01:12:26 PM »
Bit OT but another duel, between India and Pakistan, that has its roots in culture and heritage (Asian with Imperial overtones) but is definitely now an entertainment!

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Re: Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2017, 01:51:50 PM »
Some examples that keep coming up are:  Washington Redskins NFL team using that name, things that are ‘Cool’ for White People – But ‘Too Ethnic’ for People of Colour like cornrows in hair, things that perpetuate stereotypes about a culture, people wearing native american headdresses as fashion accessories.

I don't think the Redskins example is the same thing. Redskin is a derogatory name for Native Americans that white people used against them, not something the native Americans themselves used. It's akin to calling a team the New York N-words.
Is perpetuating stereotypes the same thing we're talking about here? I feel like there's a difference between that and being influenced by other cultures, but admittedly the line is hazy.
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Re: Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2017, 07:07:36 PM »
Personally, I don't buy into the cultural appropriation taboo.  People from other cultures come to my country so they can have a better life.  They appropriate "American culture", and in exchange, people from here appropriate some of their culture, such a food, drink, customs, clothing, etc., and both are enriched by the process.  That's one of the benefits of being in a "melting pot" type of society.  We all give and take.  That's why we can do Cinco de Mayo better than in Mexico and St. Patrick's better than in Ireland (heh heh). 

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Re: Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2017, 07:11:38 PM »
Some examples that keep coming up are:  Washington Redskins NFL team using that name, things that are ‘Cool’ for White People – But ‘Too Ethnic’ for People of Colour like cornrows in hair, things that perpetuate stereotypes about a culture, people wearing native american headdresses as fashion accessories.

I don't think the Redskins example is the same thing. Redskin is a derogatory name for Native Americans that white people used against them, not something the native Americans themselves used. It's akin to calling a team the New York N-words.
Is perpetuating stereotypes the same thing we're talking about here? I feel like there's a difference between that and being influenced by other cultures, but admittedly the line is hazy.

Yeah, that's not really cultural appropriation.  Cultural appropriation is when I gave a Cinco de Mayo speech in Spanish (fair, not fluent), wearing a sombrero and singing Cielito Lindo.  Then I drank tequila and Corona that night.  I'm celebrating Mexico's history, and when Mexicans come here they can celebrate July 4th.  They stick it to the French and we stick it to the British.  It's great!!!   

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Re: Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2017, 07:19:20 PM »
Personally, I don't buy into the cultural appropriation taboo.  People from other cultures come to my country so they can have a better life.  They appropriate "American culture", and in exchange, people from here appropriate some of their culture, such a food, drink, customs, clothing, etc., and both are enriched by the process.  That's one of the benefits of being in a "melting pot" type of society.  We all give and take.  That's why we can do Cinco de Mayo better than in Mexico and St. Patrick's better than in Ireland (heh heh).

If you immigrate and become part of the common culture, integrate, I would have thought that taking up those sort of things was all part of the package? But, say, if a new Lithuanian immigrant dressed in traditional Ojibwe fashion, especially if decorated with meaningful symbology, just for parties or for laughs in public, that would be appropriation of the wrong kind I think. I.e. "mis-appropriation".
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Re: Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2017, 07:33:30 PM »
Personally, I don't buy into the cultural appropriation taboo.  People from other cultures come to my country so they can have a better life.  They appropriate "American culture", and in exchange, people from here appropriate some of their culture, such a food, drink, customs, clothing, etc., and both are enriched by the process.  That's one of the benefits of being in a "melting pot" type of society.  We all give and take.  That's why we can do Cinco de Mayo better than in Mexico and St. Patrick's better than in Ireland (heh heh).

If you immigrate and become part of the common culture, integrate, I would have thought that taking up those sort of things was all part of the package? But, say, if a new Lithuanian immigrant dressed in traditional Ojibwe fashion, especially if decorated with meaningful symbology, just for parties or for laughs in public, that would be appropriation of the wrong kind I think. I.e. "mis-appropriation".

I think part of the problem too is the dominant group enjoying another groups cultural trinkets while oppressing the people of that culture.  Which is about the only aspect of cultural (mis)appropriation I can understand being objectionable.
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Re: Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2017, 10:23:14 PM »
Personally, I don't buy into the cultural appropriation taboo.  People from other cultures come to my country so they can have a better life.  They appropriate "American culture", and in exchange, people from here appropriate some of their culture, such a food, drink, customs, clothing, etc., and both are enriched by the process.  That's one of the benefits of being in a "melting pot" type of society.  We all give and take.  That's why we can do Cinco de Mayo better than in Mexico and St. Patrick's better than in Ireland (heh heh).

If you immigrate and become part of the common culture, integrate, I would have thought that taking up those sort of things was all part of the package? But, say, if a new Lithuanian immigrant dressed in traditional Ojibwe fashion, especially if decorated with meaningful symbology, just for parties or for laughs in public, that would be appropriation of the wrong kind I think. I.e. "mis-appropriation".

I think part of the problem too is the dominant group enjoying another groups cultural trinkets while oppressing the people of that culture.  Which is about the only aspect of cultural (mis)appropriation I can understand being objectionable.

Sure, if they are being oppressed that's not cool. But me not being able to adopt Mexican or Irish or Chinese dress or custom for an occasion is BS.

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Re: Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2017, 11:59:31 PM »
At what point does it go from being appropriation to incorporation, and is it less worse at that stage for people who feel offended at the idea that ?

The way I see it, cultures are fluid, and especially the western world incorporates elements from other countries and cultures with less resistance while sometimes giving those elements their own meaning. Same elements, different contexts so different meanings for different societies.

I guess I just don't see what's so offensive about that. If people want to have a Brazilian Carnival in other countries, go for it IMO. I'm sure we took it from somewhere or somewheres...   
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Re: Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2017, 02:32:38 AM »
At what point does it go from being appropriation to incorporation, and is it less worse at that stage for people who feel offended at the idea that ?

The way I see it, cultures are fluid, and especially the western world incorporates elements from other countries and cultures with less resistance while sometimes giving those elements their own meaning. Same elements, different contexts so different meanings for different societies.

I guess I just don't see what's so offensive about that. If people want to have a Brazilian Carnival in other countries, go for it IMO. I'm sure we took it from somewhere or somewheres...

Brazilian Jui Jitsu was adapted when an immigrant came from asia to brazil and taught it in Brazil. It's now regarded as one of the best supplemental martial arts used in mma. None of that would be possible if Brazilians didn't adapt it.
But, uh...well there it is.
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Re: Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2017, 02:55:03 AM »
So do all the white people agree? Cultural appropriation is a-okay!!!

(Sorry, feeling silly and "provocative" - in a joking way - tonight.)

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Re: Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2017, 06:21:15 AM »
Last year a dutch folks "music" group made a song about haka. Lets just say that it was not appreciated.
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Re: Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2017, 10:46:29 AM »
So do all the white people agree? Cultural appropriation is a-okay!!!

(Sorry, feeling silly and "provocative" - in a joking way - tonight.)

Well, no, not entirely. I'd just as soon certain cultural elements simply die. Blood vendettas and FGM, to mention a couple. Also, I've found myself less and less sympathetic with tribalism in general. As a species, we don't benefit much from subdividing ourselves on arbitrary grounds.
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Re: Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2017, 12:09:12 PM »
So do all the white people agree? Cultural appropriation is a-okay!!!

(Sorry, feeling silly and "provocative" - in a joking way - tonight.)

No, I don't think it is okay if it offends people.  My problem is I can't always work out what will offend people!