Author Topic: The Asmo's Trump Thread  (Read 788 times)

Asmodean

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The Asmo's Trump Thread
« on: July 17, 2017, 03:42:47 PM »
In my re-entry post, I may have mentioned something that raised an eyebrow or two, namely that as it stands today, I consider my indirect opposition to Donald Trump's candidacy and subsequent succession to presidency to have been... Misplaced. As promised, I shall now discuss my reasons for thinking that.

It all began with a choice. A choice Americans had to make. A choice between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump. As many, I thought, and still do think, that Hillary would have made a far more competent president, one who would do better by the American public. I didn't really care about the whole email bullshit any more than I did about Trump's pussy-grabbing ways. I still don't. To me, a leader of a nation is not a role model or favorite uncle. I want my leaders to be able to make choices I couldn't when those choices, however distasteful I may find them, serve my long-term interests. So if I would not condemn my leader ordering someone's death or sending my friends to war in a country I would struggle to point to on a map, how could I then be outraged at some bullshit proper-etiquette issue? Well, I could, but I do try not to be a total hypocrite about such things.

But I'm getting sidetracked here.

I did not think Trump would be a good leader for me (And do please note that I represent foreign interests here - I do not stand to suffer from the ruination of an already shaky healthcare system or get coal miner's lung or suddenly have a solar-powered wall cross my land) I did not think he would be good for me because I thought that, with a Republican majority, he would be... Effective.

Thus far, he has been anything but on the world stage. From my side of the pond, most of what the White House seems to do these days is react to various scandals surrounding the current administration. Those being of a mostly internal nature, (And I do consider Russia allegedly influencing the outcome of the election to be such an issue, at least until some sort of reaction actually materializes) they do not serve to destabilize the world any more than it does all by itself. US troops still bomb a country or two, US stock still churns out profit - or loss, if you don't see the signs, The Wall™ seems to be 25% winged wishes, 30% bullshit and 45% financial nightmare and... That's about it.

Trump is widely seen as a spray-tanned joke, but I think the fears of those who contemplated the isolationist nature of some of his statements and the effects his policies would have on the global arena are gradually proving to be unfounded.

So how is any of that good, you may rightly ask. Pretty much nothing I said is particularly flattering. That is certainly true. However, I think Hillary would have tried much harder to be a player on the world stage, and her being Hillary, I don't think I would have approved of her leading the "Free world" nearly as much as I would have approved of her leading the United States. Trump... He just doesn't lead the "Free world." At least, not yet. And while I sympathize with those affected in the worst possible ways by his actions or the lack thereof... It's been half a year, and we're doing OK. Islamic terrorists still want to blow us up because our backs are less hairy than theirs... Or some such, The UK is still leaving the European Union, China still sells crap for cheap, although they are becoming good at making nice stuff for expensive at an alarming rate. Kim the Third-or-whatever is still building ICBMs... The wars are all in the usual places... Business as usual "across the board."

And... That there is pretty much it. By being as passive/ineffective/insert-your-adjective on the world stage as he is, right here and now, he's not making worse that, which I care enough about to... well, care.

I'd be happy to discuss what I, as an outsider, think of his domestic policies, successes and failures if any one is interested in having that conversation, but that one will, as implied, have a completely different tone.
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Re: The Asmo's Trump Thread
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2017, 10:27:14 PM »
Pleased to have input from an individual with a sense of perspective even though he is determined to do away with Luxembourg.   

In my mind we have elected a president who is conspicuously unqualified for the job that he was appointed to do.  That is our problem that we cannot immediately undo. We dug ourselves into this hole because too few of us, prior to the election, bothered to filter through the bullshit that both parties were selling. 

It should have been perfectly obvious that The Donald is a snake oil salesman who is extremely reckless with the truth.  He promised a whole basket of things that neither he, nor his party, could realistically deliver. Some of us were aware of that simple reality.  Unfortunately not enough of us were paying attention.

I believe that one of the several reasons that Trump won was the deep, and completely unfounded and widely subscribed dislike of Obama. An enormous number of people believed that Obama was/is a Muslim communist hell bent on destroying our country.  Hillary was guilty by association in the minds of much of that ill informed electorate.  The E-mail thing hurt her badly even though the influence of her indiscretion has yet to be discovered as harmful. 

The Trumpites were frequently behaving with a mob mentality, incited and encouraged my Mr. Trump and his acolytes.....Lock her up, lock her up,.... etc.  That kind of mob behavior was contagious. Nice people in Iowa and good Christians in Kansas bought into the notion that Hillary was the spawn of the devil. The fact that she is a female also cost her some votes, male chauvinism being what it is. I am still having a problem with the knowledge that so many of my fellow Americans are either unbelievably gullible and/or as dumb as a basket of rocks

So much for a partial post mortem......the prime question is; where do we go from here??  Suggestions anyone??


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Re: The Asmo's Trump Thread
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2017, 12:03:25 AM »
I think the trumpettes were compelled by his openly racist views and actions. He hated anyone from any race and gave his reasons why. This related to people on a deep level and they didn't let go. Even now in the mist of the Trump Jr thing they cling to their papa as if he were their god incarnate.

I think they are willing to throw out any and all morals as long as they win. Lies? Ok, he is just misunderstood actually. Cheats? Sure, he is just being smart. Steals? Why not, the other people are evil. Helping communist countries despite us being openly anti-communism? Haha, we like being poor and abused!

At this point I am emotionally invested and reactive. I don't have a good answer to where we should go from here.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 12:21:49 AM by Arturo »
But, uh...well there it is.
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Re: The Asmo's Trump Thread
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2017, 06:47:41 AM »
I agree for most parts with the Asmo from a foreign policies perspective. Obama screwed up enormously in the Middle East with the help of the highly aggressive Hillary Clinton and the extremely weak John Kerry. Supporting Jihad groups in Libya and Syria to remove dictators, but instead generating huge clusterfucks. Granted, Obama's predecessor didn't do much better. Invading countries without having an exit strategy is pretty dumb.

Hillary Clinton is a scruples hawk, who's policies goes wherever the wind blows. Now it is all about gender equality, feminism and Muslim hugging. How to solve terrorism? Answer: we should get to know the terrorists better and eat their food. She would support the corrupt Ukraine regime and established a no-fly zone in Syria, thus  causing severe problems with the Russians. She'd also invite thousands of unvetted migrants in the USA from countries that hate the USA. Lesson learned in Europe: you better don't do that unless you want no-go zones, more sexual assaults, crimes and terrorist attacks. No wonder that many people voted for Trump.
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Re: The Asmo's Trump Thread
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2017, 03:06:57 PM »
Now it is all about gender equality, feminism and Muslim hugging.
What? You don't want gender equality?

Muslim hugging? What's wrong with treating Muslims like they are people? Not all Christians are child molesters, and not all Muslims are terrorists. I think it's more to do with what has happened to their country and not so much the specific religion.

Quote from: Tom62
She would support the corrupt Ukraine regime and established a no-fly zone in Syria, thus  causing severe problems with the Russians.
Huh? She was against Russia causing problems in the Ukraine and conquering it. As were many other people. No fly zones in Syria are something that are a bit more nuanced. It's difficult not to cause problems with Russia, Russia is like a spoiled toddler in a supermarket: everything is fine as long as the brat is  getting everything it wants, but if it doesn't, then the snot throws a fit until the shitty parents concede. That is how Russia has been behaving since Putin's been in control, except that people that have died. So, fuck Russia's tantrums, Russia needs to grow the fuck up and coddling Russia like Trump supporters seem to want is going to make things worse just like with a spoiled toddler.

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She'd also invite thousands of unvetted migrants in the USA from countries that hate the USA.
Woah.... no one was talking about unvetted migrants. But liars for Trump presented such bullshit.

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Asmodean

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Re: The Asmo's Trump Thread
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2017, 03:58:00 PM »
Pleased to have input from an individual with a sense of perspective even though he is determined to do away with Luxembourg.
We all have out little eccentricities, damn those Luxemburgers!   

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In my mind we have elected a president who is conspicuously unqualified for the job that he was appointed to do.  That is our problem that we cannot immediately undo. We dug ourselves into this hole because too few of us, prior to the election, bothered to filter through the bullshit that both parties were selling.
I've actually read an interesting opinion article about it somewhere. Tried to find it, but I can't seem to. Wrong computer - wrong browser history. In any case, the author asserted that the problem is less one of Trump being unqualified and more of him indeed being qualified. It has to do with the qualifications required for a person to be elected into a position of leadership. And yes, a generally permissive system does mean that occasionally, you may find a pearl in the otherwise monotonously average masses of humanity. However, statistically, is it not more likely to backfire and return a thousand dog turds for every such pearl?

I find this line of thinking intriguing. What ought and ought not be demanded from a potential president-to-be?

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I believe that one of the several reasons that Trump won was the deep, and completely unfounded and widely subscribed dislike of Obama. An enormous number of people believed that Obama was/is a Muslim communist hell bent on destroying our country.  Hillary was guilty by association in the minds of much of that ill informed electorate.  The E-mail thing hurt her badly even though the influence of her indiscretion has yet to be discovered as harmful.

I think that dissatisfaction with Obama was a factor. Also, that here and there, it was warranted. My beef with him is mostly that well-intentioned as he was, he was too weak on the world arena to make significant impact. I wonder what the Arab Spring might have looked like if he was better at the craft..? Well... It might not have happened at all, but while fun, idle speculations are just that - idle speculations.

More to the point, while I think Obamas tenure in the White House was a variable in Trump getting his gig, general dissatisfaction with the establishment was a bigger one and Hillary, she sort of embodies the establishment. When in situations like that, populists do tend to storm ahead - even the incompetent ones.

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I am still having a problem with the knowledge that so many of my fellow Americans are either unbelievably gullible and/or as dumb as a basket of rocks
I think it may well be a cultural issue, actually. I speculate from personal experience only here, but it seems to me like many Americans put a lot of stock in being American, which may stem, at least in part, from the United states being heavily populated by people who initially looked for a place to belong, for that "something greater," chasing the American Dream, which I think may be a detrimental factor to recognizing and resisting some forms of herd mentality. Of course, the issue is most likely a compound one and the variables at play are near-countless. I'm just trying to look at those factors present in for example Europe, but not the USA or vice versa.

*Sigh...* Then again, I may not be onto anything at all. If fallacies have ever taught us something, it's that there is no such creature as a true Scotsman - not until there is only one left.

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So much for a partial post mortem......the prime question is; where do we go from here??  Suggestions anyone??
Personally, I like up and forward. To be less vague, however, my suggestion is to try to fight your own battles and let the world go to shits mostly by itself. There is vast potential in the United States. It's up to its people to realize it.

I think the trumpettes were compelled by his openly racist views and actions. He hated anyone from any race and gave his reasons why. This related to people on a deep level and they didn't let go. Even now in the mist of the Trump Jr thing they cling to their papa as if he were their god incarnate.
Really? Racism? As in, fueled by Obama being a shade of black? I suppose I can see that, but wouldn't it take more to vote to the perceived detriment of an opposing tribe than to the perceived benefit of one's own? Remember that we are talking about tens of million people here.

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At this point I am emotionally invested and reactive. I don't have a good answer to where we should go from here.
Respect points for self-awareness and subsequent self-restraint.
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Asmodean

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Re: The Asmo's Trump Thread
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2017, 04:08:06 PM »
Not all Christians are child molesters, and not all Muslims are terrorists.
Oh, the temptation! No. Getting late. Going home. Maybe later.

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That is how Russia has been behaving since Putin's been in control, except that people that have died. So, fuck Russia's tantrums, Russia needs to grow the fuck up and coddling Russia like Trump supporters seem to want is going to make things worse just like with a spoiled toddler.
They play the game well. It does take some mental acrobatics not to grant them that. It takes more to call it "tantrums." And of course they play to win, and with their own agenda in mind - who doesn't?

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Woah.... no one was talking about unvetted migrants. But liars for Trump presented such bullshit.
Sort-of with you on that one, and yet I do think the US under Hillary may have had more of a refugee problem than what is currently the case. Misplaced as they may be, Trump's policies on the subject seem nicely protectionist-like.
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Re: The Asmo's Trump Thread
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2017, 04:26:09 PM »
Not all Christians are child molesters, and not all Muslims are terrorists.
Oh, the temptation! No. Getting late. Going home. Maybe later.
Don't forget the rest of what I said.

Quote from: Asmodean
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That is how Russia has been behaving since Putin's been in control, except that people that have died. So, fuck Russia's tantrums, Russia needs to grow the fuck up and coddling Russia like Trump supporters seem to want is going to make things worse just like with a spoiled toddler.
They play the game well. It does take some mental acrobatics not to grant them that. It takes more to call it "tantrums." And of course they play to win, and with their own agenda in mind - who doesn't?
I don't think it takes much gymnastics at all to call it "tantrums." A lot of bad things happen under the excuse of "playing to win." Of course I could go around and violently attack people that disagree with me in arguments right? I mean I'm just playing to win.

Quote from: Asmodean
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Woah.... no one was talking about unvetted migrants. But liars for Trump presented such bullshit.
Sort-of with you on that one, and yet I do think the US under Hillary may have had more of a refugee problem than what is currently the case. Misplaced as they may be, Trump's policies on the subject seem nicely protectionist-like.
The problem with that shitty "protectionist" position is that we have the ability to protect ourselves and help out those who need it. I mean we spend more on defense than the next several countries combined.

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Re: The Asmo's Trump Thread
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2017, 06:10:27 PM »
Apparently, I lied about going home back then. But I did go home eventually. I'll address your response from a better platform than my iPhone, also the part I did not quote.
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Re: The Asmo's Trump Thread
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2017, 10:16:45 PM »
She'd also invite thousands of unvetted migrants in the USA from countries that hate the USA.

Oh come on, really? This "unvetted" lie is complete utter  bullshit that was propagated over and over by the right media to scare people. Are you talking about Refugees? As it stands now, the refugee screening process takes months and months, I think even over a year in some cases.
Or do you mean just immigrants in general? Because the crime rate among immigrants is a lot lower than those born here. And you know how many people form those countries Trump tried to ban people from committed acts of terrorism in the US? 0. None. I have issues with other things you said too, but this one needs to be quashed now, because it's just false.
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Re: The Asmo's Trump Thread
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2017, 07:46:58 AM »
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What? You don't want gender equality?
I realize that this is not a question directed at me, but to a first degree approximation, no, I don't want gender equality specifically. As I stated before, I want equal starting conditions and core rights for every human within a society, and for life to fix the rest.

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Muslim hugging? What's wrong with treating Muslims like they are people?
A feminist ought not have much of a problem answering that.  ;)

I'll answer your question as a European, as I suspect Tom sees this issue through the EU migrant crisis lens too.

Ok... General obviousness first. I treat you as a human being, and yet we are at each other's throats pretty much every time one of us opens his mouth. It's not a good example. What I'm trying to illustrate is that you can, in fact, not pander to people and still not rob them of their humanity, so to speak.

Then there is the question of rhetoric. "Muslim" can, and often in these discussion, should be viewed as a first-degree approximation rather than a direct reference to religion. When anti-immigration... No, let me rephrase that somehow, it's not immigration as such that is often seen as a problem... Gah. Fine. Whatever. When anti-Muslim-refugee elements chant "Build that wall!" and places like Romania do just that, the underlying issue is that Europe does not have a place for the sheer number of people trying to get in. I'll tear through the talking points at speed. If nuance or citation is wanted, tell me where.

1. Europe does not have a system in place to handle very large numbers of refugees. There is no stable or even functional political framework within the EU/EEC to redistribute the refugees among the member states. Further, few internal systems are capable by design of coping with large increases in refugee inflow.

2. The individual countries have an expectation of respect for the sovereignty of their borders. They want to be able to turn away those, who attempt to seek asylum from a safe area. This is more important than many give it credit for, as it serves to put pressure on those countries like Italy, Romania and Greece, which are closest to the conflict areas and must abide by the treaty proclaiming that those camping just outside their walls have a right to seek asylum, but not to seek asylum wherever they so wish.

3. An increasing number of people subscribe to the point of view that their money would be better spent helping the refugees in the conflict areas themselves (They would be IDPs, not refugees then, but semantics)

4. An increasing number of people are concerned with foreign nationals disproportionately crowding the violent crime statistics. In some cases, it's bullshit. In others... The shoe does fit. Besides, a voter doesn't have to be right - just cast the ballot. And many European voters cast theirs with the immigration being a top-three, or even a clear top-one issue.

5. It is difficult for refugees to find employment due to linguistic and cultural barriers, education, local demand concerns and the like. Further, it is a common view that many refugees do not want employment as long as they are getting the tax payers' coin - sometimes more than the poor within a given country.

6. In Europe, we suck at integration and we know it.

7. Fortune-hunters can go fuck themselves. On this point, on the most general level, I disagree. I work in an in industry where fortune-hunters are the ones who, at the end of the day, earn me my monthly paycheck. Granted, nearly all of them are from the Baltics, but frankly, I don't give a shit where they are from. We do not have enough locals to fill those jobs, and they do need filling. So yeah, I usually go into those debates with "Depends on the fortune-hunter."

8. The refugees do come from mostly Muslim-majority countries and areas where certain of our much-prized freedoms, rights and privileges simply do not exist, and a number of them do upon arrival seem to attempt to turn their new home into exactly the sort of shithole they escaped rather than assimilate.

...I'll stop here. Although I'm about half-way down the list, I think I covered the core issues and even produced a buzzword or two. 

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Not all Christians are child molesters, and not all Muslims are terrorists. I think it's more to do with what has happened to their country and not so much the specific religion.
I'm still resisting the temptation to go on an epic tirade here - I have done so before, so do a quick search if you want to see me rant about "not all" arguments.

Short version, what is "not all" doing to prevent the rest of them from doing what they do, be it kiddie-fondling or honor killings or driving Allah's holy goods vehicles into crowds?

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]I don't think it takes much gymnastics at all to call it "tantrums." A lot of bad things happen under the excuse of "playing to win." Of course I could go around and violently attack people that disagree with me in arguments right? I mean I'm just playing to win.
I think you may have read my objection in a wrong way. What I said was that the game they play well is far more sinister than a tantrum. They shelled the shit out of Georgia (Yes, yes, there were reasons - not the point right here and now) and got away with it for the price they were willing to pay. They annexed Crimea (same parentheses) and got away with that. They throw their weight around in areas where they have strategic interests when those areas attempt to slide more in the Westerly direction, they support groups in the West most friendly, or at the very least, least hostile towards their interests.

They are playing at being a superpower, and in their immediate strategic interest zone, they are succeeding.

Tantrums or outbursts or hissy fits, those are not. There are clear patterns of proactive power play there.

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The problem with that shitty "protectionist" position is that we have the ability to protect ourselves and help out those who need it. I mean we spend more on defense than the next several countries combined.
Technically, it's more of a political hot topic than a problem. Sure, it's a problem for the refugees, but not for your society.
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Tom62

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Re: The Asmo's Trump Thread
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2017, 08:26:41 AM »
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Muslim hugging? What's wrong with treating Muslims like they are people?
What I'd like to add to the Asmo's excellent list of replies is the following:
Muslims are people, no doubt about that. But they are not better than other people and they should  be treated like anyone else. The problem however is that they are treated dfferently, because of their religion. They can't do anything wrong, nor can their religion be criticized. I don't know why that is, because Islam is a bunch of bad ideas (like mysogyny, pedophilia, FGM, sharia law, slaughtering animals the halal way, etc.) and its fundamental followers are (lets put it friendly) mentally unstable and highly aggressive.  Also, at least here in Europe, Islam is a very demanding religion (in comparison with other religions) and a religion that constantly plays the victim card.
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Re: The Asmo's Trump Thread
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2017, 09:52:15 AM »
Mhm. When speaking of Islam as a religion in broad terms, I agree.

I think I will cover this topic in higher definition later. It will take some time, so I'll try to do it outside work hours or like... Tomorrow.

Also, Muslims being no better than the rest of us is a very good point. In fact, it was number nine on the list I gave up half-way, and I chose not to make it because again, it is quite time-consuming to make a case for followers of Islam receiving preferential treatment when it comes to dealing with their precious little "religious and cultural sensibilities." It is time-consuming not because it's difficult to find the relevant data, but because of the scope of the case.
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Re: The Asmo's Trump Thread
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2017, 10:48:18 AM »
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Also, at least here in Europe, Islam is a very demanding religion (in comparison with other religions) and a religion that constantly plays the victim card.
It is a very demanding religion everywhere that it is practiced in anything like a traditional manner, Tom, the word "Islam" effectively translates as "submission (to the will of god)".

You will probably find that every religious (and atheist and humanist and political. . .) entity has played the "victim card" at some point in its history. - just a part of the standard politics of humanity. We have to live in the little window of our own lifespan, with the events thst affect our daily life. But those who react only to today's events, with no learning from yesterday nor respect for tomorrow, help to maintain the violence and transgenerational hatred.
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Re: The Asmo's Trump Thread
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2017, 03:24:43 PM »
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What? You don't want gender equality?
I realize that this is not a question directed at me, but to a first degree approximation, no, I don't want gender equality specifically. As I stated before, I want equal starting conditions and core rights for every human within a society, and for life to fix the rest.
That's more than even I want. I don't think it even possible to equal starting conditions. But we can adjust things along the line.

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Muslim hugging? What's wrong with treating Muslims like they are people?
A feminist ought not have much of a problem answering that.  ;)
Not all Muslims oppress women, and it's not like they are the only religion to do so. I mean, Islam is just as shitty as any other religion and many manage to be decent people in spite of the religion just like Christians have done. So how about we stop making it about the religion, and start making it about the people?

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I'll answer your question as a European, as I suspect Tom sees this issue through the EU migrant crisis lens too.[...]
Well that certainly was a lot of stuff. What I didn't see though, is something along the lines of and argument for why one shouldn't treat a person like any other person just because they are a Muslim.

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]I don't think it takes much gymnastics at all to call it "tantrums." A lot of bad things happen under the excuse of "playing to win." Of course I could go around and violently attack people that disagree with me in arguments right? I mean I'm just playing to win.
I think you may have read my objection in a wrong way. [...]
Tantrums or outbursts or hissy fits, those are not. There are clear patterns of proactive power play there.
There is a strategy, but they are still tantrums.

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The problem with that shitty "protectionist" position is that we have the ability to protect ourselves and help out those who need it. I mean we spend more on defense than the next several countries combined.
Technically, it's more of a political hot topic than a problem. Sure, it's a problem for the refugees, but not for your society.
I consider all of humanity to be my society, so it is a problem for my society.

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