Happy Atheist Forum

Getting To Know You => Ask HAF => Topic started by: Tank on June 16, 2017, 09:15:49 AM

Title: Serious help needed.
Post by: Tank on June 16, 2017, 09:15:49 AM
I've locked horns with a serious Islamic nutter on FB (I know I shouldn't).

I need a mathematical proof demonstrating that 0+0=1 is not true.

Any help on doing this properly would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: Dave on June 16, 2017, 09:34:31 AM
Ooer, can't find anything on that, Tank. Lots on why 1 does not equal 0, 0÷0 does not equal 1 and the value of 0^0.

Not enough of a mathematician to bend any of those to the shape you need.

What is the context?
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: hermes2015 on June 16, 2017, 09:59:31 AM
What about:

0 + a = a for any number a
Let a = 0
therefore 0 + 0 = 0
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: Dave on June 16, 2017, 10:13:16 AM
Quote from: hermes2015 on June 16, 2017, 09:59:31 AM
What about:

0 + a = a for any number a
Let a = 0
therefore 0 + 0 = 0

Also solve for a=1 for comparison?
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: hermes2015 on June 16, 2017, 10:46:20 AM
Quote from: Gloucester on June 16, 2017, 10:13:16 AM
Quote from: hermes2015 on June 16, 2017, 09:59:31 AM
What about:

0 + a = a for any number a
Let a = 0
therefore 0 + 0 = 0

Also solve for a=1 for comparison?

Yes, I assumed Tank would build a response on this and expand with some examples. However, I suspect he is arguing with a fanatic with a closed mind and logic is not going to convince that person.
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: Claireliontamer on June 16, 2017, 10:49:45 AM
Would be intrigued to read the argument and how on earth you got to this stage!
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: hermes2015 on June 16, 2017, 10:56:52 AM
Whatever you do, don't tell him about Gödel. He will use that as "evidence" that our number theory is flawed!
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: Dave on June 16, 2017, 11:39:33 AM
Quote from: hermes2015 on June 16, 2017, 10:56:52 AM
Whatever you do, don't tell him about Gödel. He will use that as "evidence" that our number theory is flawed!

Nor about some of Karl Popper's ideas or possible alternative universes with weird geometries...
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: Tank on June 16, 2017, 12:53:32 PM
Thank you all :)
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: Tank on June 16, 2017, 12:55:38 PM
You can follow the whole sorry thread here.

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=122412745011533&id=100017284246519&comment_id=122418155010992&reply_comment_id=122903781629096&notif_t=feed_comment_reply&notif_id=1497601279176449

For those that don't know I'm Chris Jarvis.

I have not been overly polite.
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: Tank on June 16, 2017, 01:09:34 PM
Quote from: hermes2015 on June 16, 2017, 10:46:20 AM
Quote from: Gloucester on June 16, 2017, 10:13:16 AM
Quote from: hermes2015 on June 16, 2017, 09:59:31 AM
What about:

0 + a = a for any number a
Let a = 0
therefore 0 + 0 = 0

Also solve for a=1 for comparison?

Yes, I assumed Tank would build a response on this and expand with some examples. However, I suspect he is arguing with a fanatic with a closed mind and logic is not going to convince that person.

He's a Nigerian civil servant. No wonder Nigeria is fucked!
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: Tank on June 16, 2017, 01:12:58 PM
This is a case of speaking to the silent audience. We all know there are silent atheists in many theistic communities. They are who I am aiming at. This chap sets himself up as an authority figure and needs to be taken down a peg or two. He's a science denying anti-evolution Muslim. He thinks 'Science is an assumption.'
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: hermes2015 on June 16, 2017, 01:19:24 PM
Quote from: Tank on June 16, 2017, 01:12:58 PM
This is a case of speaking to the silent audience. We all know there are silent atheists in many theistic communities. They are who I am aiming at.

I think that is a good motive and if this interchange just pushed one doubter in the right direction, it would be worthwhile. I applaud your willingness to do this. I am usually too apathetic to argue with someone I think is a lost cause.
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: Dave on June 16, 2017, 01:48:26 PM
Not being on FB I can only see three comments.

Which Muhhama/ed is your opponent? In what I see some seem to favour science at least a little.
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: jumbojak on June 16, 2017, 01:51:08 PM
I could be mistaken, but I don't think that's a simple one to prove Chris. There's a lot of background going into something that seems so simple.
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: joeactor on June 16, 2017, 02:28:03 PM
How about a real world proof...

You have zero apples.
Your friend has zero apples.
You and your friend have how many apples?
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: Tank on June 16, 2017, 02:43:03 PM
Here is the response

"Los! Lies Exposed!😂

If 0 +0=0 ,

Then

There is no possibility for life to exist without a cause,

Hence the equation 0 +0=1 is false ,

But what is the correct view? The correct is:

For anything to exist there must be a cause which is distinct from it, So, If There is a Cause of The Universe Then It Must Be One Which is What we Muslim Call The Oneness of Allah S.W.T. 1=1"

Thoughts appreciated.
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: Claireliontamer on June 16, 2017, 02:59:37 PM
He's making a huge jump in logic there. Who is to say that 1 in the equation is Allah and not some other scientific force? 
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: Arturo on June 16, 2017, 03:06:11 PM
From what I see, this guy is trying to push 0+0=1 when the real equation is more like -1+1=0

He's also said that 1=1 in terms of the origin of anything. So I'd ask if he thinks things just go back infinitely? That's an extraordinary claim that I think would need to be supported by evidence.

Also, I don't think anyone is saying life made itself in the scientific community. He's just making up straw man arguments so he can control the opinion of others. The general consensus seems to be of the origin of life is "life happened, let's find out how" Also, If he's saying that 1=1 then I would think that means life makes life right? Isn't that what he said that was so dumb?
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: Dave on June 16, 2017, 03:07:09 PM
Quote from: Tank on June 16, 2017, 02:43:03 PM
Here is the response

"Los! Lies Exposed!😂

If 0 +0=0 ,

Then

There is no possibility for life to exist without a cause,

Hence the equation 0 +0=1 is false ,

But what is the correct view? The correct is:

For anything to exist there must be a cause which is distinct from it, So, If There is a Cause of The Universe Then It Must Be One Which is What we Muslim Call The Oneness of Allah S.W.T. 1=1"

Thoughts appreciated.

Er, out of context that makes no sense. I assume this is your opponent's response to the "proofs"? Is he saying "0+0=1" is only false if there is no causal agency but he believes it to be true because he believes there is a causal agency? I assume he is not 100% competent in the structure of basic English usage!

Nor in logic but that is a given considering his beliefs...
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: Arturo on June 16, 2017, 04:35:16 PM
Quote from: Gloucester on June 16, 2017, 03:07:09 PM
Quote from: Tank on June 16, 2017, 02:43:03 PM
Here is the response

"Los! Lies Exposed!😂

If 0 +0=0 ,

Then

There is no possibility for life to exist without a cause,

Hence the equation 0 +0=1 is false ,

But what is the correct view? The correct is:

For anything to exist there must be a cause which is distinct from it, So, If There is a Cause of The Universe Then It Must Be One Which is What we Muslim Call The Oneness of Allah S.W.T. 1=1"

Thoughts appreciated.

Er, out of context that makes no sense. I assume this is your opponent's response to the "proofs"? Is he saying "0+0=1" is only false if there is no causal agency but he believes it to be true because he believes there is a causal agency? I assume he is not 100% competent in the structure of basic English usage!

Nor in logic but that is a given considering his beliefs...
He started off by saying muslims contribute to science world wide. Then he continues by saying athiests make the argument 0+0=1 and muslims say 1=1 and asks which do you choose. He then expands the argument to the origin of the universe then tobthe origin of life. What tank showed was from his argument for the origin of life being Allah.
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: Dave on June 16, 2017, 04:57:06 PM
^

Ah, I thought that Tank's opponent was arguing 0+0=1 from the OP since Tank asked for a proof that the sum was false.

The Muslims inherited most of their science from the Indians and the Greeks but they did advance it. As did Europe once the stopped fighting between themsekves. But their record is spotty, they destroyed as much "non-Islamic" science as they developed - like the burning of the library at Akexandria and, today, the destruction of ancient texts in the world's first university, in Timbuktu, because they are "haram".

All is measured against the Q'ran. Not a very scientific outlook. So they go from the top to the bottom of the scale.
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: Davin on June 16, 2017, 05:46:08 PM
The numbers don't make sense like this.

Let's say that 1 = fire.
The things that make fire, are not fire so they are all zero. So:

fuel = 0
Oxygen = 0
Heat = 0

So: 0 + 0 + 0 = 1 is true. As can be easily demonstrated with a match or a lighter.
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: Dave on June 16, 2017, 05:53:54 PM
Quote from: Davin on June 16, 2017, 05:46:08 PM
The numbers don't make sense like this.

Let's say that 1 = fire.
The things that make fire, are not fire so they are all zero. So:

fuel = 0
Oxygen = 0
Heat = 0

So: 0 + 0 + 0 = 1 is true. As can be easily demonstrated with a match or a lighter.

That looks just like a programmer's solution, where a character has whatever value, meaning or significance he or she wants it to have!

I would thing that in maths any character other than a number can have a contextual value/meaning/signifucance but never seen a case ehere a number is other than a numerical value.
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: Davin on June 16, 2017, 05:58:21 PM
Quote from: Gloucester on June 16, 2017, 05:53:54 PM
Quote from: Davin on June 16, 2017, 05:46:08 PM
The numbers don't make sense like this.

Let's say that 1 = fire.
The things that make fire, are not fire so they are all zero. So:

fuel = 0
Oxygen = 0
Heat = 0

So: 0 + 0 + 0 = 1 is true. As can be easily demonstrated with a match or a lighter.

That looks just like a programmer's solution, where a character has whatever value, meaning or significance he or she wants it to have!

Well, that's what that person is doing. They set life = 1 or 1 = life, then try to add not life to make up life. so I just wanted to demonstrate the flaw in that method in a way that easily shows it to be quite silly.
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: Tank on June 16, 2017, 05:58:33 PM
His implication is that there has to be a first cause and therefore nothing + nothing can't equal something so QED Allah! He's reduced his defence to simply laughing. I don't think he's used to pig headed bastards like me.
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: Dave on June 16, 2017, 06:00:15 PM
Quote from: Tank on June 16, 2017, 05:58:33 PM
His implication is that there has to be a first cause and therefore nothing + nothing can't equal something so QED Allah! He's reduced his defence to simply laughing. I don't think he's used to pig headed bastards like me.

But, but ...

Oh, forget it, got enough headaches!
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: Tank on June 16, 2017, 06:16:06 PM
Quote from: Gloucester on June 16, 2017, 06:00:15 PM
Quote from: Tank on June 16, 2017, 05:58:33 PM
His implication is that there has to be a first cause and therefore nothing + nothing can't equal something so QED Allah! He's reduced his defence to simply laughing. I don't think he's used to pig headed bastards like me.

But, but ...

Oh, forget it, got enough headaches!
:mb lol:   :hug: Go take some photos!
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: xSilverPhinx on June 16, 2017, 09:21:10 PM
Quote from: Claireliontamer on June 16, 2017, 02:59:37 PM
He's making a huge jump in logic there. Who is to say that 1 in the equation is Allah and not some other scientific force?

My thoughts exactly, if there is a first cause, then why would it be Allah?

I like Joe's proof - concrete and simple enough for the simple minded to grasp. I think, Tank, that you could tell him that if 0 means "not getting punched in the face" and 1, "getting punched in the face", how on earth would he get a broken nose if no one (not the member, mind, you) punched him in the face?

Joking aside, I wouldn't stress myself out with nutjobs like that. They're just not worth the heightened blood pressure.
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on June 16, 2017, 11:38:57 PM
The Nigerian money unit is the Naira.  Ask your opponent to take 0 Nairas and add that to 0 Nairas, and see if he ever gets anything other than 0 Nairas.  That should keep him occupied for a while.
Maybe he could go to one of the poor Muslims in Nigeria and see if the poor person can add 0 to 0 and ever come up with anything but 0. If he can, he's a financial genius.
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on June 16, 2017, 11:42:23 PM
Quote from: Tank on June 16, 2017, 02:43:03 PM
Here is the response

"Los! Lies Exposed!😂

If 0 +0=0 ,

Then

There is no possibility for life to exist without a cause,

Hence the equation 0 +0=1 is false ,

But what is the correct view? The correct is:

For anything to exist there must be a cause which is distinct from it, So, If There is a Cause of The Universe Then It Must Be One Which is What we Muslim Call The Oneness of Allah S.W.T. 1=1"

Thoughts appreciated.

There may be a "cause" of everything, but none of that points to what a Muslim calls the oneness of Allah.  Why not the oneness of Christ, or the oneness of Spinoza, or the oneness of Buddha?  It's definitional bullshit.
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: Ali on June 17, 2017, 02:11:06 AM
Tank, bless your heart. The simplest answer is that his original "proof" is a metaphor. Metaphors may be useful in explaining concepts, but they are not scientific proof of anything. 1+1 can indeed equal 1 if we mean 1 drop of water + 1 drop of water = 1 slightly larger drop of water, but that speaks nothing to the mathematical truth of 1+1 or even all that much about the scientific properties of H2O, except that water droplets smush together easily. It's a nonsensical form of proof for anything.
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: Arturo on June 17, 2017, 03:42:33 AM
That gif though
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: Ali on June 17, 2017, 03:53:27 AM
Quote from: Arturo on June 17, 2017, 03:42:33 AM
That gif though
Hypnotic, isn't it?
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: xSilverPhinx on June 17, 2017, 03:54:51 AM
Hello, Ali! Welcome back! :grin:
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: Ali on June 17, 2017, 03:56:54 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on June 17, 2017, 03:54:51 AM
Hello, Ali! Welcome back! :grin:
Thanks! It's good to be among good Christian people. 😘
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: Tank on June 17, 2017, 07:55:24 AM
Quote from: Ali on June 17, 2017, 03:56:54 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on June 17, 2017, 03:54:51 AM
Hello, Ali! Welcome back! :grin:
Thanks! It's good to be among good Christian people. 😘

:rofl:
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: Asmodean on June 19, 2017, 02:37:47 PM
Sort of answered this one in a Facebook post.

To re-iterate, and put it more bluntly, using classical algebra in this example is just silly. As Davin and Gloucester pointed out, a numeral does not have to represent a certain algebraic value outside the context of algebra. Following much the same line of thought, "nothing" does not have to represent the same thing in algebra as it does in, say, cosmology.

Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: Davin on June 19, 2017, 04:36:17 PM
Could be low values of zero and one.

0.44 + 0.43 = 0.87 when rounded to the nearest whole number is 0 + 0 = 1;
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: Dave on June 19, 2017, 04:57:15 PM
Quote from: Davin on June 19, 2017, 04:36:17 PM
Could be low values of zero and one.

0.44 + 0.43 = 0.87 when rounded to the nearest whole number is 0 + 0 = 1;
:mb lol:
Title: Re: Serious help needed.
Post by: Tank on June 19, 2017, 06:21:26 PM
Quote from: Davin on June 19, 2017, 04:36:17 PM
Could be low values of zero and one.

0.44 + 0.43 = 0.87 when rounded to the nearest whole number is 0 + 0 = 1;
Love this!