Utilitarianism related dream

[AlP]

Wow. I just had a weird dream. It kind of went like this. Suppose a poor American with no health insurance is diagnosed with cancer. It's treatable but without treatment he will certainly die. So he carries out a felony with the intent of not harming anyone just so he can go to prison and get free treatment for the cancer. I think that would actually be morally (though not legally) defensible on utilitarian grounds. The net effect was to reduce overall harm; he might survive the cancer and he succeeded in not harming anyone while committing the crime. His intentions were to reduce harm. Thoughts?

[Renegnicat]

I wouldn't say that he did the right thing, but he certainly knew what he was doing, and he seems to understand the consequences of his actions. In this world, that's probably the best we can hope for.

Speaking of dreams, I dreamt last night that I was frodo in a modern day lord of the rings, and instead of orcs there was zombies and spiders. We had to get to Bill Miller's Bar-B-Q in order to flush the magic plunger down the toilet.

It was quite pleasing.  

[Whitney]

I think the main problem here is that it would make more sense to get arrested than not...this means we treat our criminals better than we do the law abiding citizens...in effect, we reward those who do harm and punish (through non-action) those who avoid harm.  So, from a utilitarian perspective, shouldn't we have universal health care?

[LoneMateria]

I think the main problem here is that it would make more sense to get arrested than not...this means we treat our criminals better than we do the law abiding citizens...in effect, we reward those who do harm and punish (through non-action) those who avoid harm.  So, from a utilitarian perspective, shouldn't we have universal health care?

I'm not sure of the law does this apply to all criminals?  Or just criminals on Death Row?  Also getting arrested can possibly affect the rest of this persons life.  Would you rather live 5 years happy (relatively) working hard and helping others, or live 25 years broke because you can't get a job, possibly end up homeless etc.?  Also many places will help you if you have cancer, you can try to get a loan and pay it back over time.

Here is a scary option.  Perhaps you can join the Mormon church then ask for money for treatment (they will help those who are financially struggling).  Lol you can open up with a line like this ..., "I've been praying to God for a long time on what to do and he told me to ask the Church to help pay for my treatment so i can spread his good word ^_^."  If you are lucky they will pay for your treatment.

[AlP]

I think the main problem here is that it would make more sense to get arrested than not...this means we treat our criminals better than we do the law abiding citizens...in effect, we reward those who do harm and punish (through non-action) those who avoid harm.  So, from a utilitarian perspective, shouldn't we have universal health care?

Yeah I agree it's absurd that criminals can get welfare benefits while law abiding citizens do not. The US has the highest incarceration level in the world. Wikipedia says more than 1 in every 100 adults are currently in prison. China comes in second but with only 18% of that level. I wonder if this has something to do with?

I definitely think universal health care could be argued for from a utilitarian perspective.

[Whitney]

I'm not sure of the law does this apply to all criminals?  Or just criminals on Death Row?  

I think they have to cover all criminal's health expenses.  After all, they are stuck in jail without real jobs and therefore can't be expected to carry a health insurance plan.  However, I haven't researched this so I guess I could be wrong....but it would be awfully cruel to not provide health care to someone who is in jail if they are unable to provide it for themselves.

Also getting arrested can possibly affect the rest of this persons life.  Would you rather live 5 years happy (relatively) working hard and helping others, or live 25 years broke because you can't get a job, possibly end up homeless etc.?  

Yes, that is a point.  But I do know people (not many, just a couple) who have felony convictions.  Those who simply just screwed up and don't actually have a criminal mind have been able to make a decent life for themselves.  It would mean having to get a job in physical labor or some other form of contract work...so this obviously would be a negative for anyone who's illness would be a chronic problem.

Also many places will help you if you have cancer, you can try to get a loan and pay it back over time.

I would personally want to exhaust this as an option before thinking about if the jail option would be necessary.  My main point about the jail health care was simply that it made no sense that it is easy to get health care while in jail but very hard if not in jail.  

Here is a scary option.  Perhaps you can join the Mormon church then ask for money for treatment (they will help those who are financially struggling).  Lol you can open up with a line like this ..., "I've been praying to God for a long time on what to do and he told me to ask the Church to help pay for my treatment so i can spread his good word ^_^."  If you are lucky they will pay for your treatment.

LOL, then you'd probably still die since they don't allow blood transfusions; which I assume might be necessary if you have to undergo surgery for the cancer.  However, I would choose this option before jail; assuming I could keep a straight face.

I'm a smart person, I'm sure I could figure out a way to pay for any health issue I may have (a potential last resort would be divorcing my husband and marrying someone in canada; not sure how the legalities or process of that would work, but I know something like that is possible).  However, those who aren't that smart seem to not be able to figure out how to get health care when they really need it and it makes you wonder why it is so much easier for a criminal to get health care over the average citizen (USA only, of course).

[LoneMateria]

LOL, then you'd probably still die since they don't allow blood transfusions; which I assume might be necessary if you have to undergo surgery for the cancer. However, I would choose this option before jail; assuming I could keep a straight face.

I thought that was just Jehovah Witnesses who did that.  Thats crappy.  Well what the church doesn't know wont hurt them.  I'd specifically say to the doctor that if I need blood give me what I need.  I may be getting paid by the Mormons but my evolutionary designed survival instincts are superior to Mormon rules.

**EDIT**  Well then again like Scientology they don't allow for caffeine.  I would not be able to survive no caffeine.  I would probably have to stab the church leader when he starts talking out of his ass If I couldn't have caffeine.

[Whitney]

LOL, then you'd probably still die since they don't allow blood transfusions; which I assume might be necessary if you have to undergo surgery for the cancer. However, I would choose this option before jail; assuming I could keep a straight face.

I thought that was just Jehovah Witnesses who did that.  Thats crappy.  

Hmm...you could be right; I get them confused.

[Renegnicat]

It's gonna hurt you big time if you commit a felony. Like I said, if you understand the consequences, and you're perfectly willing to accept them, then no one has any right to tell you what you are going to do is "right" or "wrong". Life is bad as it is without all of us judgemental people. Everyone is too busy judging and trying to figure out a moral system that works under all circumstances.

I think the reason why the "do what you want" system get's a bad rap is because it's too free. A lot of people want a system that's not "right", but that's "easy" to follow. A system that sets up hard and fast rules of what to do or not do is easy to follow, because all the responsibility is on the system, and noone can be blamed for doing something wrong if they are just following the "system".

But if you tell someone that there is no perfect system of morality, and that it's up to them to act morally, then they get scared. Having to decide your own morality is a very scary thing. It put's all the responsibility for acting morally squarely on your own shoulderes, and if you screw up, you have to live with the consequences forever, because you can't change the past.

No wonder there's so many religious people saying that "you can't be moral without religion". What they are really saying is that they don't understand how someone could be so strong as to live with the responsibilities of moral decision making. If any one of these religious people had to decide their own morals, they would be scared silly and unable to do it. So, naturally, that can't understand how anyone can be strong enough to follow theier own moral codes without an easy and simple system to follow.

It's not that atheists are immoral, it's that the atheistic remind the religious of just how cowardly they are in their own moral lives.

[Whitney]

Daily moral decisions are easy because we do have natural empathy which guides what we ought to do.  Morality only becomes complex when we hit gray areas and religious dogma doesn't say what to do in gray area situations anyway.  I think knowing right from wrong is easy...but I also think moral is avoiding harm/helping and immoral is causing harm.  Isn't it some of the new agey pagans who say "Do as ye will lest you harm none." Makes a lot more sense than the Christian version of the golden rule.

[Renegnicat]

Maybe for you it's easy. But for a lot of weaker-minded peoples, it's incredibly difficult.

[Whitney]

Maybe for you it's easy. But for a lot of weaker-minded peoples, it's incredibly difficult.

I don't think it has anything to do with weak-mindedness....other pack animals demonstrate some level of moral understanding too.  There are people who can't empathize at all, but there are medical terms for them and they do not represent the norm.  Many religious people are just lead to believe that those who choose not to accept their god are under the control of some evil power...so that leads to the conclusion that it's impossible to be moral without god belief.