Religion > Creationism/Intelligent Design

Why Evolution is not true?

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Squid:
About the bird migration and it coming from some external intelligence, there is NO evidence for such a conclusion and to say it is “logical” is a bit silly.  If you noticed one of my citations from my previous post about bird migrations, this article sheds light upon the migration ability.  The research done by Heyers et al. (2007) shows that, in migratory birds, the proposed pathway in question is the thalamofugal pathway – composed of retinal ganglia expressing cryptochrome and an area in the forebrain called Cluster N.  Crytpochrome just denote the receptors which are specialized to detect blue which also play a role in the circadian cycles of some animals.  Cluster N is a collection of forebrain areas in migratory birds which play a role in night-vision and as Heyers et al. propose, their internal “compass”.  In Anguilla Anguilla, among the physiological changes which take place before migration is the shift in their retina pigments from green-sensitive to blue-sensitive (Wood, P. and Partridge, 1993).

The authors also note that within cluster N, there is “high, sensory driven neuronal activity as indicated by the expression of the Immediate Early Gene ZENK during magnetic orientation”.  This is supported previously by independent evidence is several migratory bird species (Mouritsen, Feenders, Liedvogel, Wada,  & Jarvis, 2005; Liedvogel, Feenders, Wada, Troje, Jarvis & Mouritsen, 2007).

ZENK expression was utilized as a measure of neuronal activity.  The specific genes in question would be the cryptochrome CRY genes which are also involved in circadian cycles as well as the regulation of PRL (prolactin) which is involved in avian reproductive cycles (Yasuo, Watanabe, Tsukada, Takagi, Iigo, Shimada et al., 2004) as well as reproductive cycles in coral (Levy, Appelbaum, Leggat, Gothlif, Hayward, Miller et al., 2007) and involved in time-place learning in mice (Van der Zee, Havekes, Barf, Hut, Nijholt, Jacobs et al., 2008).

Electromagnetic orientation is not restricted to birds, a study of eels showed that there is a definite, seasonal dependent change in orientation in accordance with Earth’s magnetic field which I posted previously (van Ginneken, Muusze, Breteler, Jansma, van den Thillart, 2005; Westerberg & Lagenfelt, 2008).  Specifically, Westerberg & Lagenfelt showed that underground electrical power cables (which generate their own EMFs) disrupted the travel of the eels.

In birds, migration has been shown to be a genetically controlled process.  For instance, such behavior can be produced or changed to sedentary behavior within several generational breedings by intermixing migratory and sedentary birds (Berthold, 1999).  Also Moller (2001) notes that arrive time is dependent upon genetics and such can be linked directly to reproduction, stating:


--- Quote ---…competition for early arrival among males may lead to condition-dependent migration associated with fitness benefits of early arrival achieved by individuals in prime condition.
--- End quote ---

As for migration in marine species, it does seem to be evolutionarily advantageous, as Roff (1988) notes:


--- Quote --- Migration both influences the evolution of other traits and is contigent upon the evolution of other behavioural and demographic characters. The interaction between such factors is illustrated by considering the relationship between the cost of migration in relation to fecundity and the advantages and disadvantages of schooling, a phenomenon hypothesized to favour the evolution of migration.
--- End quote ---

The development of migration itself may seem like it may take a heavy toll, however, this is not the case as Alerstam, Hedenstrom and Akesson (2003) show.  They also indicate that migration should not be seen as an isolated behavior or mechanism but migration is “an extension of general seasonal adaptations in movement, homing, metabolism etc”.   It is also noted that migratory behavior is not a conserved behavior either and is linked to resource exploitation, breeding, disparity between survival and breeding grounds,  and so forth.   These similarties are seen across taxa with variation (which the article includes eels in their consideration of migration).  Alerstam et al. also note that the eel migration is aided by currents although the energetic cost of the travel is fairly low.  This was previously shown by Castonguay and McCleave  (1987) which showed that Anguilla anguilla stay in the Gulf Stream on their travel to Europe.

The misconception that the eels travel from the same exact spot from their spawning grounds to some exact spot close to Europe and back to the same exact spot is elementary and inaccurate.  Here is the variation in their journey:



The long-distance trek of Anguilla Anguilla is quite amazing and it may not be know exactly why their spawning grounds are so far away – however, as research has shown it may have built up distance over a period of time and is directly to their reproduction.  Takaomi, Limbong, Otake & Tsukamoto (2001) conclude that this is this may indeed be the case, stating:


--- Quote ---…ancestral eels most probably underwent diadromous migration from local short-distance movements in complex currents in tropical coastal waters to the long-distant migrations characteristic of present-day temperate eels, which has been well-established as occurring in subtropical gyres in both hemispheres.
--- End quote ---

Which is later expounded upon in another article the following year by Tsukamoto, Aoyama & Miller (2002) stating:


--- Quote ---…the large-scale migration of temperate eels probably evolved from local migrations of tropical eels as a result of long-distance dispersal of leptocephali from spawning sites in tropical waters of low latitude to temperate growth habitats at higher latitudes.
--- End quote ---

Specifically, Tsukamoto & Aoyama (1998) conclude that the tropical origins of the eels were somewhere around the Western Pacific, close to modern-day Indonesia and their clade originating around 10 million years ago.

Now, the problem with wanting to show mutation is responsible for a particular behavior is (as you should know) very difficult since behaviors are not governed by the dynamic of one gene, one trait/state.  Genetic roles can be shown and have been in the migration of animals including the eels along with environmental cues to imprinting (Westin, 2003). And the alternative idea which you propose is lacking in any substantiation or refutation of the currently presented data.  It is known, however, that no mutation is a requirement for the Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium and therefore makes it an integral part of the evolutionary process as I’ve stated before.  Mutations lead to genetic variants  --> natural selection acts upon these variants --> the selected traits grow throughout the population and may become indicative of that organism.  It also must be kept in mind that most mutations are effective neutral to the organism – that is they do not confer any real selective advantage or disadvantage.

There is definitive evidence for a major role for genetics in migratory behavior, along with environmental cues (electromagnetic fields in this case) and learning (imprinting – which can be shown to be disrupted as in the article from Westin).

As for “instinct” this too is the product of variation and selection.  Did anyone teach you how to suck on a nipple when you were a baby? No, that fixed action pattern already existed and has even been observed in vivo prenatally  â€“ obviously a beneficial trait to have.  Another example is the innate drive to procreate or at least engage in the activity thereof.  However, these instincts can be modified by experiential learning (conditioning) or found in variation in which a particular genotype may not exhibit the usual innate behavior – in such an instance without some intervention this would be bad for that particular individual.

There is ample evidence for a completely naturalistic and evolutionary explanation for migration behavior in the example of the eels.

NOW, where is the evidence of for the “intelligence” alternative?  Outside of empirical evidence all you have is conjecture as the claim of sound logic doesn’t not float with your proposition at all as the argument you have presented, as I showed previously, is fallacious.

You have no evidence and only flawed logic for an argument – so why is it you cling to this idea so?

References:

Alerstam, T., Hedenstrom, A. &  Akesson, S. (2003). Long-distance migration: evolution and determinants.  Oikos, 103, 247-260.

Berthold, P. (1999). A comprehensive theory for the evolution, control and adaptability of avian migration.  Ostrich, 70, 1-11.

Castonguay, M.& McCleave, J. (1987). Vertical distributions, diel and ontogenetic  vertical migrations and net avoidance of leptocephali of Anguilla and other common species in the Sargasso Sea.  Journal of Plankton Research 9, 195-214.

Heyers, D., Manns, M., Luksch, H., Gunturkun, O., & Mouritsen, H. (2007). A Visual Pathway Links Brain Structures Active during Magnetic Compass Orientation in Migratory Birds. PLoS, 2(9), e937.

Levy, O., Appelbaum, L., Leggat, W., Gothlif, Y., Hayward, D., Miller, D. et al. (2007). Light-Responsive Cryptochromes from a Simple Multicellular Animal, the Coral Acropora millepora.  Science, 318, 467-470.

Liedvogel, M., Feenders, G., Wada, K., Troje, N., Jarvis, E. & Mouritsen, H. (2007). Lateralized activation of cluster N in the brains of migratory songbirds.  European Journal of Neuroscience, 25, 1166-1173.

Moller, A. (2001). Heritability of arrival date in a migratory bird.  Proceedings of the Royal Society B, 268, 203-206.

Mouritsen, H., Feenders, G., Liedvogel, M., Wada, K., & Jarvis, E. (2005) Night-vision brain area in migratory songbirds. Proceedings of the  National Academy of Sciences,  102, 8339–8344.

Roff, D. (1988). The evolution of migration and some life history parameters in marine fishes.  Environmental Biology of Fishes, 22, 133-146.

Takaomi, A., Limbong, D., Otake, T. & Tsukamoto, K. (2001). Recruitment mechanisms of tropical eels Anguilla spp. and implications for the evolution of oceanic migration in the genus Anguilla.  Marine Ecology Progress Series, 216, 253-264.

Tsukamoto, K. & Aoyama, J. (1998). Evolution of freshwater eels of the genus Anguilla: a probable scenario.  Environmental Biology of Fishes, 52, 139-148.

Tsukamoto, K., Aoyama, J. & Miller, M. (2002). Migration, speciation, and the evolution of diadromy in anguillid eels.   Canadian Journal of Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences, 59, 1989-1998.

Van der Zee, E., Havekes, R., Barf, R., Hut, R., Nijholt, I., Jacobs, E. et al. (2008). Circadian time-place learning in mice depends on Cry genes.  Current Biology, 18, 844-848.

van Ginneken, V., Muusze, B., Breteler, J., Jansma, D., & van den Thillart, G. (2005). Microelectronic detection of activity level and magnetic orientation of yellow European eel, Anguilla Anguilla L., in a pond.  Environmental Biology of Fishes, 72, 313-320.
Westerberg, H & Lagenfelt, I. (2008). Sub-sea power cables and the migration behaviour of the European eel.  Fisheries Management & Ecology, 15, 369-375.

Westin, L. (2003). Migration failure in stocked eels Anguilla Anguilla.  Marine Ecology Progress Series, 254, 307-311.
Wood, P. and Partridge, J. C. (1993) Opsin substitution induced in retinal rods of the eel (Anguilla anguilla (L.)): a model for G-protein-linked receptors.  Proceedings of the Royal Society B. 254, 227-232.

Yasuo, S., Watanabe, M., Tsukada, A., Takagi, T., Iigo, M., Shimada, K. et al. (2004). Photoinducible Phase-Specific Light Induction of Cry1 Gene in the Pars Tuberalis of Japanese Quail.  Endocrinology, 145, 1612-1616.

McQ:

--- Quote from: "Kyuuketsuki" ---
--- Quote from: "McQ" ---Don't bother. I don't see any reason to continue with this little game of Messenger's. He is not the least bit serious and has already received an official warning in another thread for doing essentially the same thing he is doing here. No responses to his inane banter are necessary, and go against the good advice to not feed the trolls.
--- End quote ---

I disagree ... if he is allowed to post such drivel then he must be opposed. It's important.

If you want to end it then ban him.

Kyu
--- End quote ---

Well, if I thought that he believed the stuff he was posting, I'd agree completely with you, Kyu. After reading all of his posts, I'm beginning to see a pattern that indicates he's just trolling, and doesn't merit serious time or consideration. He's been warned, and if he shapes up, then I'll be happy to change my opinion of him. I was simply suggesting to oldschool that he not bother to go to all the effort, especially since it was frustrating to him.

oldschooldoc:

--- Quote from: "McQ" ---
--- Quote from: "Kyuuketsuki" ---
--- Quote from: "McQ" ---Don't bother. I don't see any reason to continue with this little game of Messenger's. He is not the least bit serious and has already received an official warning in another thread for doing essentially the same thing he is doing here. No responses to his inane banter are necessary, and go against the good advice to not feed the trolls.
--- End quote ---

I disagree ... if he is allowed to post such drivel then he must be opposed. It's important.

If you want to end it then ban him.

Kyu
--- End quote ---

Well, if I thought that he believed the stuff he was posting, I'd agree completely with you, Kyu. After reading all of his posts, I'm beginning to see a pattern that indicates he's just trolling, and doesn't merit serious time or consideration. He's been warned, and if he shapes up, then I'll be happy to change my opinion of him. I was simply suggesting to oldschool that he not bother to go to all the effort, especially since it was frustrating to him.
--- End quote ---

Thanks McQ. He is very frustrating, I have patience, but some people can really get make want to... I won't go there.

Kyu, I do see your point on why he needs to be opposed and I would really enjoy seeing you do so. If anyone can eloquently, and with the patience in light of Messenger, put into words how fin-to-feet evolution is possible it is you.

SSY:
Dear messenger

you say that evolution ( or parts there of ) can be dissproved with facts, please, post these facts ina  complete and unabridged manner.

Also, you say evolution is guided, can you show us who/what is guiding with objective evidence of its existance? can you suggest a mechanism for this guidance? By putting forward the hypothesis that god guides evolution, you have saddled yourself with the burden of proof. Your current arguments have amounted to " I dont know how eels navigate, therefore, something must be guiding them, therefor its god guiding them". For someone who claims to be a logician, you really have a long way to go. Interecpting the communications between god and an eel would be sufficent proof for me to beleive that gods guides them. until then, it could be zeus, odin or the flying spaghetti monster.

Or, if you are really wacky, it could be the eel remembering the direction and strength of the magnetic field on its journey from the spawning ground, then simply tracing that back when it feels randy enough to breed. Your assertion that an eel places anywhere, in any ocean will find its way back to its home spawning point is false, eels from one spawn travel out of it together, live in the same area through adolesence and then return to spawn. Taking an eel from the coast of africa to the coast of south america in a jet would not allow it to find its way back to africa.

curiosityandthecat:

--- Quote from: "SSY" ---Dear messenger

you say that evolution ( or parts there of ) can be dissproved with facts, please, post these facts ina  complete and unabridged manner.

Also, you say evolution is guided, can you show us who/what is guiding with objective evidence of its existance? can you suggest a mechanism for this guidance? By putting forward the hypothesis that god guides evolution, you have saddled yourself with the burden of proof. Your current arguments have amounted to " I dont know how eels navigate, therefore, something must be guiding them, therefor its god guiding them". For someone who claims to be a logician, you really have a long way to go. Interecpting the communications between god and an eel would be sufficent proof for me to beleive that gods guides them. until then, it could be zeus, odin or the flying spaghetti monster.

Or, if you are really wacky, it could be the eel remembering the direction and strength of the magnetic field on its journey from the spawning ground, then simply tracing that back when it feels randy enough to breed. Your assertion that an eel places anywhere, in any ocean will find its way back to its home spawning point is false, eels from one spawn travel out of it together, live in the same area through adolesence and then return to spawn. Taking an eel from the coast of africa to the coast of south america in a jet would not allow it to find its way back to africa.
--- End quote ---

He's a troll. Don't worry yourself.  

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