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Community => Life As An Atheist => Topic started by: Tank on December 15, 2011, 10:44:15 AM

Title: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: Tank on December 15, 2011, 10:44:15 AM
Kimberly posted this in another thread but due to its subject I felt it was worth its own specific thread.

Quote from: kimberlyfaith81 on December 14, 2011, 10:47:14 PM
{snip} My deconversion occurred about four years ago.  I have deeply religious family and friends.  My ex (husband at the time) was pretty blasé about religion in general.  So telling him was easy.  But the rest of my family.....  Siiiiggghh.  I do love my parents, a lot.  And knowing where they are, I knew that declaring myself as an atheist would be emotionally devastating for them.  I mean, on their knees every night begging god to save my soul, devastating.  So, I didn't plan on telling them at all.  One day, I picked my mother up in my car to take her somewhere.  I happened to be reading "The Little Book of Atheist Spirituality" at the time.  I did NOT leave it in my purse on purpose, I think.  She found it.  Oh boy.  Surprisingly, the response was rather muted.  Bascially, they believed it was a phase I was going through.  I would work through it and find my way back to the truth.  I had stopped going to church already, mostly with excuses.  I stopped coming up with excuses and stayed home.  A couple of years go by, no one has asked me about my faith, I've kept my mouth shut out of respect.  But they want my children in church.  Every time the doors are open, they want my children there.  What do you do?  They adore my children.  I'm sending them to hell with my blatant disregard of the Lord's wishes!!  How do you look your parents in the face and smile while you "send their grandchildren to hell???"  So, I started taking them to church.  I'm such a coward.  First day I went, my father cried.  Literally cried, in church.  No one asked if I had changed my mind.  I didn't offer.  Am I still an atheist? YES.  Do I want to break their hearts?? NO! But I want better for my children.  So, here I am.  Stuck, pretending.  And finding myself very thankful for HAF!

Title: Re: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: Pharaoh Cat on December 15, 2011, 12:23:37 PM
The best I can offer is for atheist parents to describe Christianity, whenever asked, as often as possible in the hearing of their children, with perfect factual honesty.

This is honestly, factually what Christianity teaches: "Believe without evidence or suffer forever for doing what you can't help wanting to do."

Ask Christians if we can stop displeasing God by an act of will.  They will tell you, no, we can't.  They will agree we can't help wanting to do what displeases God.

Ask Christians what the penalty is for displeasing God.  They will tell you, hell, which is suffering forever.

Ask Christians how we escape hell.  They will tell you by believing without evidence - and they will admit and even laud the fact that their belief flies in the face of any scientific demand for evidence.

I'm not making this up.  This is what they teach.  Hold it up for people to look at and see what reaction is forthcoming, especially from children.  No need to resist, debate, mock, or even question.  Think of this as judo or aikido for the mind.  Let Christianity's teaching hurl itself to the floor.  If you can do this with a straight face, with an air of innocence, all the better. ;)
Title: Re: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: xSilverPhinx on December 15, 2011, 12:36:50 PM
Quote from: Pharaoh Cat on December 15, 2011, 12:23:37 PM
No need to resist, debate, mock, or even question.  Think of this as judo or aikido for the mind.  Let Christianity's teaching hurl itself to the floor.  If you can do this with a straight face, with an air of innocence, all the better. ;)

If Christianity comes charging at you, use its own weight and momentum against it. I like it. ;D

Kimberly, if you don't want to get confrontational by totally closing the door on what your parents want for your chidren, you could always insist that they can choose for themselves when they're old enough to understand. That way, rather sneakily, you remove responsibility from yourself and do what is right, IMO.
Title: Re: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: kimberlyfaith81 on December 15, 2011, 02:48:59 PM
xSilverPhinx
Thank you for your input.  That has been the plan I've been working on.  When my children come home from church full of things to tell me; I listen carefully, pick out the parts I like, such as helping others, giving to the poor/needy/etc, loving unconditionally and we expand on those.  The parts I don't like, the fundamentalist, going to hell if you don't believe everything presented; those parts I cast a little doubt on.  Especially things that my children will understand as impossible.  I never get confrontational with them, just cast a little doubt and move on to the good parts.  Hopefully, in this way, they can still gather the good things in the religious world that held value for me as a child and still do.  But when they are older, they will have those seeds of doubt I planted and will know that they can always come to me for discussion.  And hopefully, they will make their own good decisions in time.  They are gifted, intelligent children.  I have no doubt in their abilities.  I made the right decision even with hyper-religious parents hounding me.  Surely, my openness and willingness to discuss anything and my affirmation of their intelligence and independence will position them to feel confident in all that they do.  Including stepping away from illogical ideologies and embracing a full life that is void of guilt, doubt, and threats of eternal punishment. 
Title: Re: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: Tank on December 15, 2011, 04:20:13 PM
Spot on! Use the church experience as a basis to explore morality and rational though.
Title: Re: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: Stevil on December 15, 2011, 05:57:05 PM
Grandparents need to know their place. All decisions on how to bring children up are the responsibility of the parents.
Grandparents can dote on the children, giving them love, hugs, kisses, presents and play with them on visits, but that is about the limit.

It is hard for grandparents to know their place, but they must learn it, they have had their chance with their own kids, but their kids are now independant mature adults, making decisions for themselves and their own kids.
Title: Re: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: Tank on December 15, 2011, 06:13:27 PM
Quote from: Stevil on December 15, 2011, 05:57:05 PM
Grandparents need to know their place. All decisions on how to bring children up are the responsibility of the parents.
Grandparents can dote on the children, giving them love, hugs, kisses, presents and play with them on visits, but that is about the limit.

It is hard for grandparents to know their place, but they must learn it, they have had their chance with their own kids, but their kids are now independant mature adults, making decisions for themselves and their own kids.
Which in India would be raising the children while the parents work. Grandparents are vital in human society. It's only post industrial revolution where families are fractured and reduced to 'work units' by capitalism that grand parents have become socially irrelevant. We now pay through the nose for professional grandparents (child minders) to look after our kids while we work to pay for somebody else to raise our kids.

In some small respects my daughter is making a slight pigs ear of bringing up her first child, my first grandchild which is totally to be expected she is very head strong (can't think where she gets that from) and young. For anybody to expect that I and my wife will not say anything and get involved is to deny human nature and is completely unrealistic. Family dynamics are a pain in the arse but that's life. One can't simply 'wish' one's parents out of one's life or  that of your child. If there is a conflict of views then the adults have to sort it out as adults within the context of the family. One can not simply dismiss part of a family simply because they are the wrong generation.
Title: Re: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: kimberlyfaith81 on December 15, 2011, 06:54:16 PM
I agree with you there Tank.  My parents may be too religious for my liking, but they are very good people.  And I could not have made it where I am without them.  If not for them, my children would have spent a greater part of their lives in daycare and strangers' homes while I finished graduate school and worked full time (sometimes two jobs) to provide for us.  I need them.   I also want them.  A close family provides more diversity and a stronger emotional net for children.  I'm not a big fan of the new "fractured family".  I try to keep all the grandparents and great grandparents involved as much as I can.  It makes their lives richer and our lives richer.  I'm a strong, independent, intelligent woman.  Smart enough to know that I don't know it all.  The more people I have to learn from, the more I'll know.  And grandparents/great-grandparents have a wealth of knowledge and experience to offer. 
Title: Re: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: Crow on December 15, 2011, 07:52:34 PM
I agree with Tank on the Grandparents side of things. They are important and can be very influential, my Granddad was easily the most influential person in my life and I always admired him. Though I do think grandparents should know where the boundaries lie, after all they may be their grandchildren but they are not their parents. My Gran was a good example of not knowing her boundaries she always use to overstep the mark, plus she use to come out with some rubbish which quickly made me loose respect for her advice, but when she took on the grandparent role and didn't interfere she was good.
Title: Re: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: Stevil on December 15, 2011, 11:49:24 PM
Given my experiences, I can't disagree with you more Tank.

Parents are prepped through pre-natel class and with many consultations with mid-wife, they also have friends and the internet in order to get themselves informed on "options" with regards to dealing with babies. It is the information age after all.

Once the new baby arrives it is an extremely traumatic time for both the parents (but especially the mother). They are both lacking sleep and stressed and unsure about how to deal with a crying baby. Of course, at hospital the nurses teach the mother some basics, the mid-wife continues to visit for 6 weeks and then there are doctor checkups and Plunket nurse appointments. The internet is still available, so are friends and the pre-natal group turns into a post natel coffee group (peer support group).
<This is how it happens in my country, other countries will be different>

It is likely that 20-40 years have passed since the grandparents dealt with babies and since then the recommended style of bringing up babies have changed.
There are many ways to bring up a baby, but there is no perfect way. The parents are the only ones whom are capable of making the correct decisions for their own babies. The grandparents are only related to one of the parents, when grandparents offer unsolicited advice or tell the parents that they are doing the wrong things and are bad parents then there is going to be much conflict and resentment. Of our coffee group only one of the girls gets on with her husband's parents since the arrival of their first born. My wife used to be friendly with my parents but now she can't stand them. She lays awake at night when we are expecting them to visit for the week-end. When they arrive, my wife largely ignores them.
The impact of grandparents overstepping the boundaries is:
Conflict between the parents
Conflict between the parent and the inlaws
Less frequency that the grand parents will be invited over
Less frequency that the parents and new childen will visit the grandparents
Less likelihood that the parents will handover the children to the grand parents when contemplating a week-end getaway.
Grandparents feel left out
Grandparents feel resentment
Grandparent wish they had provided support for the parents rather than putting pressure on them to do things their way.
Father parent/Husband/Son (a.k.a. me) feel sad. Stuck in between.

This is my experience, my life. A warning to anyone who will listen. Not necessarily a fact of everyone's life though.
Title: Re: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: Whitney on December 16, 2011, 12:39:52 AM
I think family of the parents should feel like they are able and welcome to provide guidance but not expect that their guidance will always be followed.
Title: Re: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: xSilverPhinx on December 16, 2011, 12:55:22 AM
Quote from: kimberlyfaith81 on December 15, 2011, 06:54:16 PM
Smart enough to know that I don't know it all.  The more people I have to learn from, the more I'll know.  And grandparents/great-grandparents have a wealth of knowledge and experience to offer. 

I think this sums it up for me. People who have lived through much more do have a wealth of knowledge to offer. Not that I'd let the older generations run things, but I can respect that...
Title: Re: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: Tank on December 16, 2011, 08:24:24 AM
Quote from: Stevil on December 15, 2011, 11:49:24 PM
Given my experiences, I can't disagree with you more Tank.

Parents are prepped through pre-natel class and with many consultations with mid-wife, they also have friends and the internet in order to get themselves informed on "options" with regards to dealing with babies. It is the information age after all.

Once the new baby arrives it is an extremely traumatic time for both the parents (but especially the mother). They are both lacking sleep and stressed and unsure about how to deal with a crying baby. Of course, at hospital the nurses teach the mother some basics, the mid-wife continues to visit for 6 weeks and then there are doctor checkups and Plunket nurse appointments. The internet is still available, so are friends and the pre-natal group turns into a post natel coffee group (peer support group).
<This is how it happens in my country, other countries will be different>

It is likely that 20-40 years have passed since the grandparents dealt with babies and since then the recommended style of bringing up babies have changed.
There are many ways to bring up a baby, but there is no perfect way. The parents are the only ones whom are capable of making the correct decisions for their own babies. The grandparents are only related to one of the parents, when grandparents offer unsolicited advice or tell the parents that they are doing the wrong things and are bad parents then there is going to be much conflict and resentment. Of our coffee group only one of the girls gets on with her husband's parents since the arrival of their first born. My wife used to be friendly with my parents but now she can't stand them. She lays awake at night when we are expecting them to visit for the week-end. When they arrive, my wife largely ignores them.
The impact of grandparents overstepping the boundaries is:
Conflict between the parents
Conflict between the parent and the inlaws
Less frequency that the grand parents will be invited over
Less frequency that the parents and new childen will visit the grandparents
Less likelihood that the parents will handover the children to the grand parents when contemplating a week-end getaway.
Grandparents feel left out
Grandparents feel resentment
Grandparent wish they had provided support for the parents rather than putting pressure on them to do things their way.
Father parent/Husband/Son (a.k.a. me) feel sad. Stuck in between.

This is my experience, my life. A warning to anyone who will listen. Not necessarily a fact of everyone's life though.

You're not a grand parent yet are you? Remember what you have just written when you are  :D
Title: Re: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: Stevil on December 16, 2011, 08:55:16 AM
Quote from: Tank on December 16, 2011, 08:24:24 AM
You're not a grand parent yet are you? Remember what you have just written when you are  :D
I have a lot to learn about life, and I am definately not a perfect parent.
My intent is to teach my children to be independant and not afraid to make decisions.
I want to support them, not control them.
This is their shot at life, they need to have the confidence to live it as this will bring them much opportunity.
Title: Re: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: Tank on December 16, 2011, 08:57:11 AM
Quote from: Stevil on December 16, 2011, 08:55:16 AM
Quote from: Tank on December 16, 2011, 08:24:24 AM
You're not a grand parent yet are you? Remember what you have just written when you are  :D
I have a lot to learn about life, and I am definately not a perfect parent.
My intent is to teach my children to be independant and not afraid to make decisions.
I want to support them, not control them.
This is their shot at life, they need to have the confidence to live it as this will bring them much opportunity.
I couldn't agree with you more.


EDIT: That could sound as if I think you have a lot to learn, what I meant is that I/We always have a lot to learn.
Title: Re: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: Gawen on December 16, 2011, 01:30:49 PM
Quote from: Stevil on December 15, 2011, 05:57:05 PM
Grandparents need to know their place. All decisions on how to bring children up are the responsibility of the parents.
Grandparents can dote on the children, giving them love, hugs, kisses, presents and play with them on visits, but that is about the limit.

It is hard for grandparents to know their place, but they must learn it, they have had their chance with their own kids, but their kids are now independant mature adults, making decisions for themselves and their own kids.
Yes...totally agree! One thing you can do as a parent and an individual is to have everyone accept the subject of religion in your and your children's presence as a taboo. You may think you owe much to your relatives, but in my opinion, children owe nothing to a parent because it is the parent's JOB to raise their children. Raising a child is not for a reward or to be paid back like a debt or a favour returned. If, for example, your parents become infirm and you wish to care for them, in your house, it should be from the goodness of your heart, not as payback.

Family is all fine and good until the mental coercion over religion or your job or the way you raise your own children...or whatever comes into play. You are not the spitting image of your parents. They need to learn that. Many years ago my dad and I had an agrument. It was the usual dad vs. son, where dad is always right and the adult son is never right. The argument that so many of have heard the sayings "Where have I gone wrong in raising you?", "If you have of.....If you hadn't of...". I stopped him and simply asked him "Do you love me?" and he answered "Yes" I asked him why he doesn't like me as a person, in my own right as an adult to make my own decisions. He didn't know what to say and we never had another argument since....and that was nearly 30 years ago. Of course, my dad is never one to NOT offer his advice when not asked for it...*chucklin*. But he doesn't yell at me any more.

Religion is a poison Kimberly. When I was a teenager (low teens) every summer for three months we would spend away from home in a travel trailer (a caravan to you Brits) at a lake. Our church would use an little envelope to put your tithings in so no one could see what the other person in the pew tithed. Well, we had to take out tithe envelopes with us to the lake, which was a couple hundred miles from home. My dad is a good man, and he provided nicely for the family. He would work through the week and take as much overtime as he could to leave early on Friday and spend the weekend with us at the lake. When he would leave Sunday afternoon, he'd take the tithe envelope with our tithe inside with him and drop it off at the church. Well, one year I forgot to bring the envelopes with me. He was so perturbed that he slugged me on the shoulder.

While I had been spanked in my younger years, and those perhaps 1/2 dozen spankings (I was usually a pretty good kid), this was the first and only time my dad ever struck me out of anger. And it brought tears to my eyes. Perhaps he thought I was negligent enough in forgetting the envelopes and the ensuing anger justified a punch, I don't know. But today I chalk it up to religious poisoning, shifting away the thought process of letting it go as an extreme minor offense and he could have brought them to me next week, which he did anyway. But something happened between my dad and me that year, because of the punch and it wasn't all that good. He never hit me again, never talked about it, nor apologised and I think he thought it a mistake. I had forgiven his trespasses in later years, but have never forgotten. And because I never forgot, whenever I was really angry at my own kids, his punch was always there reminding me that I would never punch my kids.

With all that said...
We are all, each of us unique individuals with the ability and freedom to make choices. Please take the time to examine the choices you may make, take time to think about how it will effect you and those around you. This above all else I have learned in my life is the most important guiding principle. Just be aware that you can't please everyone.

Title: Re: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: Willow on December 22, 2011, 08:37:06 PM
I couldn't do it.  I know family pressures affect us all differently, but I wouldn't bring my children to a church service where an adult spoke convincingly about supernatural idea that are untrue.  I try to give my kids the direct answer to their questions, and point it out when an adult tries to present myths as true.  I have to remind them that Santa is just a story.

My mum doesn't like it that we don't send our children to school, but I'm not about to change my mind because of her, and she to her credit has accepted this and has embraced the home ed idea despite it not being her choice.

I have enough trouble discussing the idea that things presented as fact on tv documentaries are not necessarily reliable.

As for learning morals at church, I think better morals can be learnt outside.  We have reasons for our morals and figure them out for ourselves based on the real world.
Title: Re: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: MadBomr101 on December 23, 2011, 10:14:18 PM
Quote from: Gawen on December 16, 2011, 01:30:49 PM
Quote from: Stevil on December 15, 2011, 05:57:05 PM
Grandparents need to know their place. All decisions on how to bring children up are the responsibility of the parents.
Grandparents can dote on the children, giving them love, hugs, kisses, presents and play with them on visits, but that is about the limit.

It is hard for grandparents to know their place, but they must learn it, they have had their chance with their own kids, but their kids are now independant mature adults, making decisions for themselves and their own kids.

Yes...totally agree!

Same here. 

Quote from: Gawen on December 16, 2011, 01:30:49 PMWhile I had been spanked in my younger years, and those perhaps 1/2 dozen spankings (I was usually a pretty good kid), this was the first and only time my dad ever struck me out of anger. And it brought tears to my eyes. Perhaps he thought I was negligent enough in forgetting the envelopes and the ensuing anger justified a punch, I don't know. But today I chalk it up to religious poisoning, shifting away the thought process of letting it go as an extreme minor offense and he could have brought them to me next week, which he did anyway. But something happened between my dad and me that year, because of the punch and it wasn't all that good. He never hit me again, never talked about it, nor apologised and I think he thought it a mistake. I had forgiven his trespasses in later years, but have never forgotten. And because I never forgot, whenever I was really angry at my own kids, his punch was always there reminding me that I would never punch my kids.

That just goes to show how religion can completely eff up people's thinking.  Did he honestly think god would be mad if his payment was late, like the cable company gets when they have to wait an extra day or two?  Hell, even the cable company doesn't get physical over it.

That was a revealing incident.
Title: Re: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: Traveler on December 23, 2011, 10:57:38 PM
Quote from: Gawen on December 16, 2011, 01:30:49 PM
...Well, one year I forgot to bring the envelopes with me. He was so perturbed that he slugged me on the shoulder.

...Perhaps he thought I was negligent enough in forgetting the envelopes and the ensuing anger justified a punch, I don't know...

Nope. There's no excuse for hitting (except for self defense I think). I'm also against spanking. There are kinder, gentler ways of making a point, and of raising healthy, happy, law-abiding children.


Quote from: willowI couldn't do it.  I know family pressures affect us all differently, but I wouldn't bring my children to a church service where an adult spoke convincingly about supernatural idea that are untrue.  I try to give my kids the direct answer to their questions, and point it out when an adult tries to present myths as true.  I have to remind them that Santa is just a story.

I agree with this. Its so easy to brainwash a child. And I know many people who have been psychologically damaged by fears of hellfire to the point where I believe its emotional abuse. I would not take that chance with my child.
Title: Re: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: Ateo on January 11, 2012, 01:44:35 PM
Quote from: Willow on December 22, 2011, 08:37:06 PM
I couldn't do it.  I know family pressures affect us all differently, but I wouldn't bring my children to a church service where an adult spoke convincingly about supernatural idea that are untrue.  I try to give my kids the direct answer to their questions, and point it out when an adult tries to present myths as true.  I have to remind them that Santa is just a story.

My mum doesn't like it that we don't send our children to school, but I'm not about to change my mind because of her, and she to her credit has accepted this and has embraced the home ed idea despite it not being her choice.

I have enough trouble discussing the idea that things presented as fact on tv documentaries are not necessarily reliable.

As for learning morals at church, I think better morals can be learnt outside.  We have reasons for our morals and figure them out for ourselves based on the real world.

Please reread the above posting first.

WOW !!!    A Voices of reason.

There is a war going on ..... it's a battle for your child's mind. Please notice that the smiling, kind apathetic looking priest or preacher has the gloves off and he doesn't mince words when he's pounding hell, damnation, sin, evil, redemption, satan into your kids head. The hammer he's using is fear, deep seated fear that could stay with them always, fear, how bloody awful of them. Notice that absolutely everything he's preaching is a  lie.

Get the gloves off.
Title: Re: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: Ali on January 11, 2012, 02:50:44 PM
Quote from: Traveler on December 23, 2011, 10:57:38 PM
Quote from: Gawen on December 16, 2011, 01:30:49 PM
...Well, one year I forgot to bring the envelopes with me. He was so perturbed that he slugged me on the shoulder.

...Perhaps he thought I was negligent enough in forgetting the envelopes and the ensuing anger justified a punch, I don't know...

Nope. There's no excuse for hitting (except for self defense I think). I'm also against spanking. There are kinder, gentler ways of making a point, and of raising healthy, happy, law-abiding children.


Quote from: willowI couldn't do it.  I know family pressures affect us all differently, but I wouldn't bring my children to a church service where an adult spoke convincingly about supernatural idea that are untrue.  I try to give my kids the direct answer to their questions, and point it out when an adult tries to present myths as true.  I have to remind them that Santa is just a story.

I agree with this. Its so easy to brainwash a child. And I know many people who have been psychologically damaged by fears of hellfire to the point where I believe its emotional abuse. I would not take that chance with my child.

Yes, agree with all of this.

But I do have to admit that it's hard for me sometimes, to know what to say as a parent.  I know that my parents talk to my son about god when we're not around because he comes home from their house talking about god.  My husband has no problems saying "God is just a story" but sometimes I struggle with it a little.  The one that I had the hardest time with is my son said "Is it true that god is always protecting us?"  And I thought how comforting it would be to believe that someone is always looking out for us.  It almost seemed mean to say no, that's not true.  I sort of side stepped the question by saying "Mommy and Daddy will always protect you."  I don't know why I have such a hard time talking to my son about my beliefs - it just kind of seems mean, like little children should be allowed to believe in all sorts of nonsense if it makes them feel better.  My husband totally disagrees, and I'm sure that most of you do too.  LOL  I can't really explain it because it's not rational. 
Title: Re: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: Traveler on January 11, 2012, 03:22:17 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 11, 2012, 02:50:44 PM
...The one that I had the hardest time with is my son said "Is it true that god is always protecting us?"  And I thought how comforting it would be to believe that someone is always looking out for us.  It almost seemed mean to say no, that's not true.  I sort of side stepped the question by saying "Mommy and Daddy will always protect you."  I don't know why I have such a hard time talking to my son about my beliefs - it just kind of seems mean, like little children should be allowed to believe in all sorts of nonsense if it makes them feel better.  My husband totally disagrees, and I'm sure that most of you do too.  LOL  I can't really explain it because it's not rational. 

The problem with this is that when bad things happen it'll be a total and complete surprise, and therefore even worse than it should be. "But mommy, you said god would protect me and I broke my leg!!!" or "But mommy, you said god would protect me and my best friend died!!!" Seriously. False hopes can be more devastating than the truth. Life is messy. Better to teach them that you'll be there to pick them up and help them than that nothing will ever happen because a god is watching out for them and protecting them.
Title: Re: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: Ali on January 11, 2012, 03:28:13 PM
Quote from: Traveler on January 11, 2012, 03:22:17 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 11, 2012, 02:50:44 PM
...The one that I had the hardest time with is my son said "Is it true that god is always protecting us?"  And I thought how comforting it would be to believe that someone is always looking out for us.  It almost seemed mean to say no, that's not true.  I sort of side stepped the question by saying "Mommy and Daddy will always protect you."  I don't know why I have such a hard time talking to my son about my beliefs - it just kind of seems mean, like little children should be allowed to believe in all sorts of nonsense if it makes them feel better.  My husband totally disagrees, and I'm sure that most of you do too.  LOL  I can't really explain it because it's not rational. 

The problem with this is that when bad things happen it'll be a total and complete surprise, and therefore even worse than it should be. "But mommy, you said god would protect me and I broke my leg!!!" or "But mommy, you said god would protect me and my best friend died!!!" Seriously. False hopes can be more devastating than the truth. Life is messy. Better to teach them that you'll be there to pick them up and help them than that nothing will ever happen because a god is watching out for them and protecting them.

Thank you.  Seriously.  That's a really good point, and a good way to look at it.  Taking it to heart.
Title: Re: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: DeterminedJuliet on January 11, 2012, 04:01:07 PM
Quote from: Traveler on January 11, 2012, 03:22:17 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 11, 2012, 02:50:44 PM
...The one that I had the hardest time with is my son said "Is it true that god is always protecting us?"  And I thought how comforting it would be to believe that someone is always looking out for us.  It almost seemed mean to say no, that's not true.  I sort of side stepped the question by saying "Mommy and Daddy will always protect you."  I don't know why I have such a hard time talking to my son about my beliefs - it just kind of seems mean, like little children should be allowed to believe in all sorts of nonsense if it makes them feel better.  My husband totally disagrees, and I'm sure that most of you do too.  LOL  I can't really explain it because it's not rational. 

The problem with this is that when bad things happen it'll be a total and complete surprise, and therefore even worse than it should be. "But mommy, you said god would protect me and I broke my leg!!!" or "But mommy, you said god would protect me and my best friend died!!!" Seriously. False hopes can be more devastating than the truth. Life is messy. Better to teach them that you'll be there to pick them up and help them than that nothing will ever happen because a god is watching out for them and protecting them.

Agreed!

I work with a woman whose son is ten, still believes in Santa and she is desperate to keep the illusion alive. Before Christmas I remember her saying "he's starting to ask a lot of questions, I don't know how much longer I can keep this up", but she won't tell him the truth - she even had one of our co-workers forge a letter from "Santa" for Christmas morning this year.

All I keep thinking about is how pissed this kid is going to be when he's 11 and realizes that his mother has been going to a lot of trouble to lie to him for his whole life.
Title: Re: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: Stevil on January 11, 2012, 06:18:26 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 11, 2012, 03:28:13 PM
Thank you.  Seriously.  That's a really good point, and a good way to look at it.  Taking it to heart.
If you are keen, the next time he hurts himself you could tell him that he must take more care and that there is no god magically protecting him.
Of course the grandparents will always have an answer for everything. Personally I would be confronting the grandparents and ask them to respect my wishes as a parent.
Title: Re: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: Ali on January 11, 2012, 06:29:13 PM
Quote from: Stevil on January 11, 2012, 06:18:26 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 11, 2012, 03:28:13 PM
Thank you.  Seriously.  That's a really good point, and a good way to look at it.  Taking it to heart.
If you are keen, the next time he hurts himself you could tell him that he must take more care and that there is no god magically protecting him.
Of course the grandparents will always have an answer for everything. Personally I would be confronting the grandparents and ask them to respect my wishes as a parent.

I have.  Confronted my parents, that is.  Their argument (which I actually do understand) is that their religion is an important part of their life and they aren't going to censor themselves when he's around just because we disagree.  I honestly can't imagine my parents *not* saying grace before a meal or things like that or not talking about god.  And I guess it also comes to a point where it's like - I won't be able to shield him from everyone's religious beliefs for very long anyway.  He's got a year and a half before he starts school, and I'm sure he's going to meet kids there that will be religious.

Wow, lightbulb.  That's why it's important for me to talk about this stuff with him now.

Thank you guys for talking this out with me.  I definitely know what I need to be doing.  I'm so glad I joined this forum!
Title: Re: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: Amicale on January 19, 2012, 10:18:41 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 11, 2012, 06:29:13 PM
Quote from: Stevil on January 11, 2012, 06:18:26 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 11, 2012, 03:28:13 PM
Thank you.  Seriously.  That's a really good point, and a good way to look at it.  Taking it to heart.
If you are keen, the next time he hurts himself you could tell him that he must take more care and that there is no god magically protecting him.
Of course the grandparents will always have an answer for everything. Personally I would be confronting the grandparents and ask them to respect my wishes as a parent.

I have.  Confronted my parents, that is.  Their argument (which I actually do understand) is that their religion is an important part of their life and they aren't going to censor themselves when he's around just because we disagree.  I honestly can't imagine my parents *not* saying grace before a meal or things like that or not talking about god.  And I guess it also comes to a point where it's like - I won't be able to shield him from everyone's religious beliefs for very long anyway.  He's got a year and a half before he starts school, and I'm sure he's going to meet kids there that will be religious.

Wow, lightbulb.  That's why it's important for me to talk about this stuff with him now.

Thank you guys for talking this out with me.  I definitely know what I need to be doing.  I'm so glad I joined this forum!

Ali, it sounds like you and I have had similar backgrounds. My daughter's three, and although she's maybe too young to ask questions about God (or maybe NOT, but there haven't been any so far, LOL), my mom and grandparents certainly do believe in God, and they've made it clear that although they and I will agree to disagree, they aren't going to censor themselves either. That's fine with me, actually. Just like in your case, I'd like my child to be aware that everyone's different, and that diversity is a good thing. If she grows up with a balance of different perspectives, that's fine by me. :) Already, she asks questions like 'Why do Uncle Steve and Uncle Mike kiss, mama?' (friends of mine who are like brothers to me, who I have over from time to time) or 'how come so and so's a different colour' when we're in a store. I welcome those questions! It shows her wonderful little brain's wheels are turning, and it'll only be a short matter of time before she's asking about religion as well. :)

So, yeah, my focus is teaching her to appreciate differences and diversity, and to respect those differences. In the long run, I hope it'll make her relationship with religious family members better -- she'll be able to appreciate them for who they are, differences or no.
Title: Re: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: Stevil on January 20, 2012, 12:52:12 AM
Quote from: Ali on January 11, 2012, 06:29:13 PM
Quote from: Stevil on January 11, 2012, 06:18:26 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 11, 2012, 03:28:13 PM
Thank you.  Seriously.  That's a really good point, and a good way to look at it.  Taking it to heart.
If you are keen, the next time he hurts himself you could tell him that he must take more care and that there is no god magically protecting him.
Of course the grandparents will always have an answer for everything. Personally I would be confronting the grandparents and ask them to respect my wishes as a parent.

I have.  Confronted my parents, that is.  Their argument (which I actually do understand) is that their religion is an important part of their life and they aren't going to censor themselves when he's around just because we disagree.  I honestly can't imagine my parents *not* saying grace before a meal or things like that or not talking about god.  And I guess it also comes to a point where it's like - I won't be able to shield him from everyone's religious beliefs for very long anyway.  He's got a year and a half before he starts school, and I'm sure he's going to meet kids there that will be religious.

Wow, lightbulb.  That's why it's important for me to talk about this stuff with him now.

Thank you guys for talking this out with me.  I definitely know what I need to be doing.  I'm so glad I joined this forum!
I wasn't talking about censuring your own parents but just getting them to respect your place as the child's parent.
It is a tricky situation, my eldest is 3 years old and is already going to kindergarten for 20 hours a week, so exposure to such things is inevitable and I am determined to ensure my children go to public schools so that they experience a diverse society rather than an exclusive one. I haven't worked out a strategy for dealing with religion. It is not really an issue in my country. If she asks me about stuff maybe I will just tell her what my disbeliefs are and why.

Anyway I can tell you are a smart lady and a great parent no doubt.
Title: Re: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: Ali on January 20, 2012, 12:57:04 AM
Thanks Stevil!  :D  I'm sure that you are a great parent too.  You're lucky that religion isn't as rampant and out of control in your country (New Zealand?)  It's a huge part of public life here in the US, unfortunately.

Amicale, that is a great point about teaching your daughter to respect diversity.  That is definitely important. 
Title: Re: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: Wessik on January 24, 2012, 10:19:59 PM
Kim, I see what you're going through, and It is very painful. I don't have any answers except to tell you that I support you and hope things work out. It is wonderful that you love your children, and love your parents. I can only hope that something good comes out of this in the future, whatever future that may be.
Title: Re: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: philosoraptor on January 26, 2012, 09:28:05 PM
This is seemingly one of those situations where you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.  Figuratively speaking, of course.

I think it's admirable that you are trying to find a balance between making your parents happy and trying to give your children an open-minded perspective.  But why do your parents have more of a right to peace of mind regarding what YOUR children are being taught than you do yourself?  After all, they are children.  Religion aside, for your parents to behave this way is emotionally abusive and manipulative.  I fear there is no way to say this that isn't somewhat crude, but your kids will be left dealing with the ramifications of church teachings long after your parents (and yourself) are dead and gone.  Is it fair to subject them to hellfire and brimstone so your parents can have peace of mind?  You are the only person who can answer these questions, of course, but it's all stuff to think about.

On the other hand, how many atheists and agnostics have defected from religion?  Sometimes church and the Bible do the damage themselves-anyone with the ability for critical thinking will see the holes and inconsistencies and start asking questions.  Maybe you can compromise-kids go to church once a month with grandparents, and those other Sundays maybe you teach them about different religions from around the world?

It's a tough position to be in, one I do not envy.  Whatever you decide, good luck.
Title: Re: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: Ali on February 01, 2012, 11:19:13 PM
I just wanted to give you guys an update.  I actually did talk to my son about god and Jesus and told him that they are just a story, but that Mommy and Daddy will be there to love him and protect him.  He took it well.  Then last weekend we were visiting with my parents, and T sneezed and my mom said "God Bless You."  T goes "God's not real, he's just a story."  Looooooong awkward pause where my parents give each other looks and I just smile and shrug my shoulders like "What are you going to do?"  After a minute, my brother changed the subject and life went on. 
Title: Re: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: Firebird on February 02, 2012, 12:12:26 AM
Quote from: Ali on February 01, 2012, 11:19:13 PM
I just wanted to give you guys an update.  I actually did talk to my son about god and Jesus and told him that they are just a story, but that Mommy and Daddy will be there to love him and protect him.  He took it well.  Then last weekend we were visiting with my parents, and T sneezed and my mom said "God Bless You."  T goes "God's not real, he's just a story."  Looooooong awkward pause where my parents give each other looks and I just smile and shrug my shoulders like "What are you going to do?"  After a minute, my brother changed the subject and life went on. 

Ha, love it! Good for you.
Title: Re: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: Tank on February 02, 2012, 12:26:43 PM
Quote from: Ali on February 01, 2012, 11:19:13 PM
I just wanted to give you guys an update.  I actually did talk to my son about god and Jesus and told him that they are just a story, but that Mommy and Daddy will be there to love him and protect him.  He took it well.  Then last weekend we were visiting with my parents, and T sneezed and my mom said "God Bless You."  T goes "God's not real, he's just a story."  Looooooong awkward pause where my parents give each other looks and I just smile and shrug my shoulders like "What are you going to do?"  After a minute, my brother changed the subject and life went on. 
Wonderful! Go T!
Title: Re: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: Buddy on February 02, 2012, 01:35:48 PM
Quote from: Ali on February 01, 2012, 11:19:13 PM
I just wanted to give you guys an update.  I actually did talk to my son about god and Jesus and told him that they are just a story, but that Mommy and Daddy will be there to love him and protect him.  He took it well.  Then last weekend we were visiting with my parents, and T sneezed and my mom said "God Bless You."  T goes "God's not real, he's just a story."  Looooooong awkward pause where my parents give each other looks and I just smile and shrug my shoulders like "What are you going to do?"  After a minute, my brother changed the subject and life went on. 

Give T a high-five for me!  ;D
Title: Re: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: Too Few Lions on February 02, 2012, 02:56:33 PM
definite, if T was my child, I'd have been soooo proud of that comment!
Title: Re: Family pressures on an atheist mother.
Post by: philosoraptor on February 08, 2012, 08:20:58 AM
Haha, kids do say the darndest things! Go T!