Happy Atheist Forum

I'm curious to see where people actually fall on this accusation that I've heard from religious people that atheist are atheist so that they can escape morality and be hedonists, etc...

I have never believed in god, so to say I pursued atheism is totally beside the point. I simply am an atheist.

As for morality, I have to laugh. The atheists I know, in general, are much more ethical/moral than most people I know who are christians. We base our morals on empathy for our fellow human beings, on evidence that behaving with compassion makes for a better world, and on the good examples set by people we admire. We don't have to obey a god to be good. We don't have to fear hell to be good. We're good because its good to be good, to put it simplistically.

One of the most terrible phrases I hear from christians, especially conservatives, is that they're god fearing christians. Like that's a good thing. I shudder to think what will happen if they ever lose their fear and/or their faith, if that's all that keeps them in line.

I was born atheist and it never changed. Where is the poll option for that?

That said, theistic beliefs do not hold any sort of monopoly on morals. People who say otherwise are *insert a public-forum-unaceptable euphemism for wrong here*

Obviously the poll is a loaded question, but my family is part of the group that thinks all atheists are hedonists and I was hoping to show them that that's not true.

Quote from: Thunder Road on December 28, 2011, 10:26:08 PM
Obviously the poll is a loaded question, but my family is part of the group that thinks all atheists are hedonists and I was hoping to show them that that's not true.

Why not let them just think that you are ten thousand kinds of evil? Or are you hoping they'll stop seeing the light at some point too?  :P

i can't say that I pursued atheism as it was never a goal.

But my path had nothing to do with trying to get rid of morals; I actually think I have stronger morals now that I had to think about them rather than have them dictated.

I did not pursue Atheism. Atheism is my default setting, despite of the best efforts of a mildly Christian upbringing, and a misguided personal quest to find something more. It is not a choice, though it did take while to de-programme from flawed teaching.

I have free-will and exercise it as I please without guilt. It is, however, a benefit to me that I have the moral fortitude to enjoy some of the more colourful aspects of life forbidden by religious law, while still able to function with respect and integrity in society at large.

If hedonism means enjoying yourself against the rules of the religious... guilty! Should I feel ashamed...?

Of course this is the case.
If we choose not to believe in a god, then we escape moral judgement from that god because the god will only judge us if we believe in it.

Therefore, we can sin, sin sin to our hearts content.

Although, it seems the theists can sin to, it is expected from them, they were born with the stain of sin.
We are filthy unworthy creatures after all. The only difference is that theists can atone for their sins by repenting and accepting Jesus blood sacrifice as atonement for their many sins.

I didn't choose to be an atheist to escape morality.  Morality is very relative, anyway.  I used to think I had stronger morals because I followed what a preacher told me was God's word and condemned homosexuality and those who practiced it.  Now I think I have stronger morals because I don't condemn homosexuality nor those who practice it, choosing instead to publicly and vocally support their right to be treated as equals.

As for the kind of morality theists assume atheists are trying to escape, mostly it involves sex, drugs, alcohol, gambling, etc.  I don't know that theists assume people are becoming atheists so they can go ahead and murder freely.  I did all that stuff when I was a theist, more so than now that I'm an atheist.  I've just never understood the concept (even when I was Christian) that becoming atheist suddenly enables you to do more things Christians consider to be sinful.  Perhaps there's just less guilt at doing things that only religion tells you is morally wrong, anyway, like various sexual practices.

I became atheist so that I could work on my plot to take over the world.

Quote from: Thunder Road on December 28, 2011, 10:26:08 PM
Obviously the poll is a loaded question, but my family is part of the group that thinks all atheists are hedonists and I was hoping to show them that that's not true.

I think some Christians NEED to think of atheists as moral reprobates because it's the only thing that can account for atheists in their world view. I remember my mother trying to explain dinosaur fossils to me after I'd been to the Natural History Museum and had seen them for myself. After she told me some crap about fossils being odd shaped rocks or petrified wood that just looked like bones. Then some other crap about Satan putting fake fossils in the ground to confuse the weak Christians into doubting god. She then told me how Paleontologists were either fooled or loved sin so much they lied to try and hide their sin from god. I'm ashamed of how long I believed her.
My mother wasn't a dumb woman, she had two Masters Degrees but I think she needed to believe such crap to continue to believe in bronze age myths.

Quote from: fester30 on December 28, 2011, 11:04:34 PM
I became atheist so that I could work on my plot to take over the world.

GET IN LINE, dammit!  >:(

No and I wouldn't respect anyone who did.  I became an atheist after learning about evolution, and my morality is not any different from when I was a theist. 

IMO, there is a battle of science vs religion.  Many scientists are atheist, somewhere around 50% compared to 5% among the general public here in the USA.  I think religious people have hidden agendas or choose to believe simply because they want it to be true.  I don't think scientists have any hidden agendas and they are just seeking truth.  The reason I think this is because of history.  When science claimed the Earth rotated around the sun, religious people said they were wrong because they WANTED the Earth to be in the center and all other planets/sun to rotate around the Earth.  Scientists like Galileo didn't believe in the heliocentric theory because they wanted the Earth to rotate around the sun, they believed in it because experiments suggested its true.  So, unlike religious people, I don't think scientists have any hidden agenda or let emotion/opinions influence what they "believe".  So I think among atheist scientists, nearly zero % chose atheism because they "wanted to escape morality". 

Mugger (M) points gun at Dufus deludicus (Dd) and our story begins.

M: "Gimme your wallet!"

Dd: "I want to keep it!"

M: "Gimme!  Now!"

Dd: "Ha!  I have defeated you!"

M: "What?"

Dd: "You don't exist!"

M: "Are you nuts?  Gimme your wallet or I'll shoot!"

Dd: "I pity the fools who believe you exist and must therefore do as you say."

M: "You have three seconds."

Dd: "What glorious freedom!"

M: "One."

Dd: "Oh, those fools, obeying the nonsensical demands of a mythical being."

M: "Two."

Dd: "In my awesome intellect a path to liberty has been found."

M: "Three."

Dd: "Unencumbered I wander the world as free as a butterfly."

Mugger pulls trigger.  Bullet enters Dd's heart.  Dd falls and bleeds.  Mugger takes wallet and flees the scene.  Dd dies.

Jesus awaits you, my friends.  Believe!  Get down on your knees and accept Jesus as your personal Savior!  He will wash you clean of sin and free you from the just penalty of trillions upon trillions upon trillions of eons burning in unquenchable flame because you masturbated.

Oh, as for the question in the OP:

No.

What's the difference between God and a mugger?

The mugger has a gun.

Quote from: Pharaoh Cat on December 29, 2011, 01:59:02 AM
The mugger has a gun.

Ah, but god, you see, he has the rod and the staff and...
...
...No. No, I guess you're right. A firearm IS a more potent weapon  :D

This accusation always perplexed me because I have known (and still know) many self-styled ardent Christians who behave in a manner that is definitely not in keeping what would be considered a good moral character.  People don't "pursue" atheism to become hedonists.  Those who claim to are usually severely misguided on many fronts.  As most have stated here, atheism isn't ever really pursued per se but rather just happens as an eventuality from rational and critical examination of one's belief system.

Well, despite growing up in a very religious family and trying hard to be properly religious myself for the first 17 yrs of life, I ended up atheist.  The thing of it is, I can't say I pursued atheism, it's more accurate to say that atheism pursued me.  After shrugging off Xtianity, I still tried to find some way to believe in a god but the improbabilities just would not go away.  Atheism was inevitable. 

As for morality, it always astonishes me that some Xtians think it doesn't exist without a god imposing it.  It's like they can't see, or don't acknowledge, the billions of people all around us who are more than capable of bringing consequences to bear for anything they consider mistreatment.  And that's just the start of what amounts to morality.

i didn't chose to be an atheist honestly, i just got tired of feeling like i was living a lie. i won't resign myself to saying there is absolutely no god, but if there is, i need proof, real solid unrefutable proof. in fact, i'd actually rather there was a god, someone to cast problems off onto and someone who cared unconditionally, and to know that this life is not the be all end all of me.

but then again, i'm somewhat of a realist. there is no positive side or negative side to anything. things are what they are and if there were a heaven or eternal punishment, pretending it does not exist really wouldn't do me any good now would it?

Quote from: Traveler on December 28, 2011, 09:50:26 PM
I have never believed in god, so to say I pursued atheism is totally beside the point. I simply am an atheist.

As for morality, I have to laugh. The atheists I know, in general, are much more ethical/moral than most people I know who are christians. We base our morals on empathy for our fellow human beings, on evidence that behaving with compassion makes for a better world, and on the good examples set by people we admire. We don't have to obey a god to be good. We don't have to fear hell to be good. We're good because its good to be good, to put it simplistically.

One of the most terrible phrases I hear from christians, especially conservatives, is that they're god fearing christians. Like that's a good thing. I shudder to think what will happen if they ever lose their fear and/or their faith, if that's all that keeps them in line.

That sounds good to me.

Just on sex the church is so ridiculous, unnatural and manipulative about it.  It's like some Orwellian society where basic human relationships threaten the controller's total control so they are deemed wrong.  Twisted F...s

Quote from: Squid on December 29, 2011, 02:12:15 AM
This accusation always perplexed me because I have known (and still know) many self-styled ardent Christians who behave in a manner that is definitely not in keeping what would be considered a good moral character.

More then once I've ended up in a strip club after church. It was always nice to hear the girls say things like "Wow you look nice in a suit, most times I see you your just in jeans and a tee". When I would say "I just came from church" many would tell me they were Christians.

That argument has just as much meaning to me as "you chose to believe in unicorns because you want to escape morality." Deserves a WTF?!

It's more of a belief system warning to theists than anything even remotely based on fact. A defense mechanism: pastor says, 'you don't want to be an atheist because atheists are the negation of everything you believe is Good. Fear atheism.'  

And thus spoke the pastor/Church/fellow ignorant and bigoted believer Lord and the sheep acknowedged.

Sorry the word "pursue" caused so much distress.  I actually spent a solid few minutes trying to word my poll choices accurately.  Oh well.   :-\


I'm surprised so many people say that for them atheism wasn't a choice though.  For me, it was definitely a conscious choice.  I remember for about 2 years considering myself agnostic, and in my head that being atheist was like jumping off a cliff in that it was irreversible, and that even though I had a lot of doubts, I didn't want to jump off the cliff, because it was a step that was both very small and very huge.

Now that I've explored more, that fear has subsided quite a bit, but still I think of it as a choice I made.  This should probably be a new topic, but I don't feel like starting one, so whatever.

Quote from: Crocoduck on December 29, 2011, 05:33:37 AM

Quote from: Squid on December 29, 2011, 02:12:15 AM
This accusation always perplexed me because I have known (and still know) many self-styled ardent Christians who behave in a manner that is definitely not in keeping what would be considered a good moral character.

More then once I've ended up in a strip club after church. It was always nice to hear the girls say things like "Wow you look nice in a suit, most times I see you your just in jeans and a tee". When I would say "I just came from church" many would tell me they were Christians.

I've also had strippers tell me they loved me lol.  Anything to keep the money coming.

Quote from: Asmodean on December 28, 2011, 11:34:35 PM

Quote from: fester30 on December 28, 2011, 11:04:34 PM
I became atheist so that I could work on my plot to take over the world.

GET IN LINE, dammit!  >:(

Hey now I have nothing but love for fellow hairless wonders.  If my plot succeeds before yours, you can have Canada.  I have no use for it.

Quote from: Thunder Road on December 29, 2011, 08:49:53 AM
Sorry the word "pursue" caused so much distress.  I actually spent a solid few minutes trying to word my poll choices accurately.  Oh well.   :-\

No worries, and I don't think anyone's distressed by it. We're just trying to be accurate in our responses.

QuoteI'm surprised so many people say that for them atheism wasn't a choice though.  For me, it was definitely a conscious choice.  I remember for about 2 years considering myself agnostic, and in my head that being atheist was like jumping off a cliff in that it was irreversible, and that even though I had a lot of doubts, I didn't want to jump off the cliff, because it was a step that was both very small and very huge.

Now that I've explored more, that fear has subsided quite a bit, but still I think of it as a choice I made.  This should probably be a new topic, but I don't feel like starting one, so whatever.

Interesting point, and I suspect that its more common in people who start out religious. The idea that atheism is somehow more radical than agnosticism, and therefore more scary. For what it's worth, technically atheism is about belief and agnosticism is about knowledge. I don't believe in gods, but acknowledge that I can't know for certain. So I'm both. Once can, of course, get into a philosophical discussion on what people call knowledge. Most religious people will claim that they know god exists, but since there are tons of different gods in different religious systems, clearly at least some of them are claiming "knowledge" that isn't true.

I didn't choose to be an atheist, I simply am one, in the most literal sense of the word. I don't usually describe myself as an 'atheist' though, especially recently, since Richard Dawkins and New Atheism became such a big deal. A group mentality has developed around the concept, making more positive claims about the nature of reason, religion, their own monopoly on 'logic' and so on that I don't want to be a part of.

Quote from: fester30 on December 29, 2011, 12:22:22 PM

Quote from: Asmodean on December 28, 2011, 11:34:35 PM

Quote from: fester30 on December 28, 2011, 11:04:34 PM
I became atheist so that I could work on my plot to take over the world.

GET IN LINE, dammit!  >:(

Hey now I have nothing but love for fellow hairless wonders.  If my plot succeeds before yours, you can have Canada.  I have no use for it.

Oh..! Well, in that case, we should go for a drink. And if The Asmo gets the world first, he's gonna give you South America. That continent just wouldn't look right in Asmo Gray  :-\

I didn't pursue atheism, it kinda just snuck up on me while I was busy learning about science and accumulating experience in life.

Quote from: Traveler on December 29, 2011, 02:15:28 PM

Quote from: Thunder Road on December 29, 2011, 08:49:53 AM
Sorry the word "pursue" caused so much distress.  I actually spent a solid few minutes trying to word my poll choices accurately.  Oh well.   :-\

No worries, and I don't think anyone's distressed by it. We're just trying to be accurate in our responses.


Interesting point, and I suspect that its more common in people who start out religious. The idea that atheism is somehow more radical than agnosticism, and therefore more scary. For what it's worth, technically atheism is about belief and agnosticism is about knowledge. I don't believe in gods, but acknowledge that I can't know for certain. So I'm both. Once can, of course, get into a philosophical discussion on what people call knowledge. Most religious people will claim that they know god exists, but since there are tons of different gods in different religious systems, clearly at least some of them are claiming "knowledge" that isn't true.

Yes to the bolded.  The best way I can think to describe it is that I had to choose to embrace the truth.  Now I recognize that it's coorect, but I still had to choose to stop being ignorant.

Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 29, 2011, 02:58:30 AM
As for morality, it always astonishes me that some Xtians think it doesn't exist without a god imposing it.  It's like they can't see, or don't acknowledge, the billions of people all around us who are more than capable of bringing consequences to bear for anything they consider mistreatment.  And that's just the start of what amounts to morality.

As Atheists, I don't think we should be tempted to use theistic words. The moment we try to use "morality", "ethics", "rights (as in moral or ethical rights)", "Good/Bad", "Evil" we will eventually find that our stance in not logically consistent. Theists have spent thousands of years analysing their worldview, trying to make everything logically consistent, we haven't.
The main problem is that language has been so influenced over the thousands of years that it is difficult to express an atheistic worldview in words. There are some words we must reclaim, must redefine in order to have our worldview logically consistent.

"Did you choose to be an atheist because you wanted to escape morality?"

A lot of Christians I've known have asked me the same question assuming that being immoral would be fulfilling (i.e., Fun!).  Isn't that strange?  I can't imagine being immoral as being fun. 

I've never been religious as there is no good reason why I should be.  Ergo no pursuit required.

there is one vote for option 1...unless one of you wants to claim it I think it is safe to assume one of the religious members voted.

Quote from: Whitney on December 29, 2011, 10:12:58 PM
there is one vote for option 1...unless one of you wants to claim it I think it is safe to assume one of the religious members voted.

Not I. The poll is for atheists.

Quote from: Whitney on December 29, 2011, 10:12:58 PM
there is one vote for option 1...unless one of you wants to claim it I think it is safe to assume one of the religious members voted.

<---didn't vote

<--- Didn't even find an appropriate option to vote for

I was born an atheist , as every human is. My father was the only religious parent, but seeing hateful and judgmental "god" made him made me question everything. When he couldnt fill any of the gaps, I laughed and did more research, and found my anwers through logic and reason, not magic sky fairy.

Also saw how violent and gross religious people became.

Quote from: Thunder Road on December 28, 2011, 09:30:47 PM
I'm curious to see where people actually fall on this accusation that I've heard from religious people that atheist are atheist so that they can escape morality and be hedonists, etc...

No. Obviously not. Atheism is simply the rejection of a deity and oftentimes the rejection of a religion. Whoever says that atheists are hedonistic is basing their argument on the premise that all moral values are derived spiritually. This is obviously false, because morals are not necessarily rooted in spiritual values. For more information, see Wikipedia.org/wiki/secular humanism  (http://wikipedia.org/wiki/secular%20humanism)

Quote from: Thunder Road on December 29, 2011, 08:49:53 AM
I'm surprised so many people say that for them atheism wasn't a choice though.  For me, it was definitely a conscious choice.  I remember for about 2 years considering myself agnostic, and in my head that being atheist was like jumping off a cliff in that it was irreversible, and that even though I had a lot of doubts, I didn't want to jump off the cliff, because it was a step that was both very small and very huge.

Interesting -- it never occurred to me that I couldn't change my mind if I got more information, or had an experience that made me believe a personal god was not so improbable.

I wonder if you could do me a favor -- since you know people who hold this "morality is imposed by god" idea, could you ask them if they think our interdependence on and interaction with other people is immaterial in creating morality, or is merely of lesser significance to that they believe imposed by a god?  This apparent dismissal of billions of other beings and their affect on us baffles me.  I'll ask around the religious I know, too.

Quote from: Happy_Is_Good on December 29, 2011, 08:39:02 PM
A lot of Christians I've known have asked me the same question assuming that being immoral would be fulfilling (i.e., Fun!).  Isn't that strange?  I can't imagine being immoral as being fun. 

Thank you!  I've heard this same thing, and in fact we've seen it on this forum, and I never understood that one either.  Not only can I not imagine anything less fun than being cruel or thoughtless (which is what most immorality seems to come down to), I can't imagine anything more difficult.  It's not only pleasanter being nice, it's easier.

Quote from: Whitney on December 29, 2011, 10:12:58 PM
there is one vote for option 1...unless one of you wants to claim it I think it is safe to assume one of the religious members voted.

I was thinking one of the world domination guys did it.  They may be immoral, but they're honest.

I really have no idea why some people think this way especially when their is nothing moral about faith. I became an atheist to be closer to morality and distant from Bigotry ; "compassion is the true path to knowledge" a wise person once told me and religion lacks in both compassion and knowledge.

Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 30, 2011, 02:39:23 AM
Not only can I not imagine anything less fun than being cruel or thoughtless (which is what most immorality seems to come down to), I can't imagine anything more difficult.  It's not only pleasanter being nice, it's easier.

When Christians say "immoral" they aren't typically talking about what you and I would be talking about if we broached that term.  Look at threads where atheists are discussing morality and the focus will be on why or why not to be more helpful, less harmful.  Look at threads (possibly not on this forum) where Christians are talking about morality and the focus will be on sex.

Reasonable people like you and me don't need priests and bibles to tell us to be reasonable toward others.  But absent priests and bibles, we wouldn't give a moment's thought to any moral ramifications arising out of one, two, or more than two consenting adults having sex, whether for love, money, or recreation, aside from health, pregnancy, or fidelity considerations, all of which, taken together, ironically lead to the inevitable conclusion that masturbation is the least objectional form of sexuality ever devised. ;)

I think it is probably true, at least for some of us, that dropping Christianity in favor of atheism enabled the shedding of guilt with regard to sex.  Call it a fringe benefit.

Quote from: Pharaoh Cat on December 30, 2011, 01:45:25 PM
But absent priests and bibles, we wouldn't give a moment's thought to any moral ramifications arising out of one, two, or more than two consenting adults having sex, whether for love, money, or recreation,

And we don't think sex in anything other then the missionary position has any moral ramifications either.

Quote from: Pharaoh Cat on December 30, 2011, 01:45:25 PM
I think it is probably true, at least for some of us, that dropping Christianity in favor of atheism enabled the shedding of guilt with regard to sex.  Call it a fringe benefit.

I had my sex education in a very small, highly legalistic, fundamentalist school. Sex and guilt were so intertwined it made me neurotic every time I got an erection, and back in high school I always seemed to have one.

you can't CHOOSE what to believe

I didn't vote, Whitney. Those options don't apply to me.

Quote from: Pharaoh Cat on December 30, 2011, 01:45:25 PM
I think it is probably true, at least for some of us, that dropping Christianity in favor of atheism enabled the shedding of guilt with regard to sex.  Call it a fringe benefit.

One of many.  There must be some non-sexual idea of morals among the religious tho -- it can't all be sexual hysteria and prying.  Can it?

Quote from: Crocoduck on December 30, 2011, 02:49:49 PM
I had my sex education in a very small, highly legalistic, fundamentalist school. Sex and guilt were so intertwined it made me neurotic every time I got an erection, and back in high school I always seemed to have one.

That explains the banana.

Quote from: MariaEvri on December 30, 2011, 04:46:17 PM
you can't CHOOSE what to believe

Some people, particularly conservative Xtians it seems, insist that you can and do, the same way they insist one can choose feelings.  Don't quote me on this, but I suspect that's because it's easier to condemn a choice and name it as a sin worthy of punishment.

Quote from: MariaEvri on December 30, 2011, 04:46:17 PM
you can't CHOOSE what to believe

People convert from one religion to another - doesn't that count as choosing what to believe?

I guess it hinges around the definition of 'believe'.  in everyday terms it means to accept as the truth (or similar) based on experience, in religious terms it means to subscribe to a set of beliefs regardless of evidence or rational argument.

Quote from: squidfetish on December 31, 2011, 02:41:17 PM
People convert from one religion to another - doesn't that count as choosing what to believe?...

That was something that always bugged me. The quickness of people to convert just because they married someone who believed differently. If their belief was so true, why were they so willing to toss it away? Jews converting to christianity and vice versa, christians converting to a widely different form (catholic to lutheran, for instance). It makes no sense whatsoever.

Quote from: Traveler on December 31, 2011, 04:55:11 PM

Quote from: squidfetish on December 31, 2011, 02:41:17 PM
People convert from one religion to another - doesn't that count as choosing what to believe?...

That was something that always bugged me. The quickness of people to convert just because they married someone who believed differently. If their belief was so true, why were they so willing to toss it away? Jews converting to christianity and vice versa, christians converting to a widely different form (catholic to lutheran, for instance). It makes no sense whatsoever.

That's why it's all such baloney.

You can choose to stop trying to convince yourself you believe.
You can refuse to ever attempt to fool yourself just because others do.

Quote from: MariaEvri on December 30, 2011, 04:46:17 PM
you can't CHOOSE what to believe

Sometimes, people are indoctrinated to the point where they are psychologically incapable of choosing what they believe, or refusing to accept the dogma that has been drilled into their head since childbirth. Guilt, remorse, and possibly punishment by parents is what children face when they decide to think freely. Social prejudices can influence people to the point where they are no longer able to think outside the box without experiencing intense feelings of anger, guilt, and regret. This is why I am diametrically opposed to child indoctrination, child baptism, etc.. It limits one's mind to new experiences from very early on.

I agree. Children should be a blank state. If they wanna be rligious idiots at 18 , let them, but things like baptisms are really pointless. I think it's horrible abuse to   tell a child they are going to hell if they dont do what mommy/daddy says.

The big issue is parents should KNOW BETTER and they don't.

Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 29, 2011, 02:58:30 AM
Well, despite growing up in a very religious family and trying hard to be properly religious myself for the first 17 yrs of life, I ended up atheist.  The thing of it is, I can't say I pursued atheism, it's more accurate to say that atheism pursued me.  After shrugging off Xtianity, I still tried to find some way to believe in a god but the improbabilities just would not go away.  Atheism was inevitable. 

As for morality, it always astonishes me that some Xtians think it doesn't exist without a god imposing it.  It's like they can't see, or don't acknowledge, the billions of people all around us who are more than capable of bringing consequences to bear for anything they consider mistreatment.  And that's just the start of what amounts to morality.

I so relate to this post. 

I don't feel like I "chose" to become an atheist.  I don't feel like I had a choice.  How do you truly choose to believe something when it goes against what makes sense to you?  It's like if everyone around you said that the sky was red, when all you have to do is look up and see it's blue.  Could you really just choose to believe it's red?  I don't know, maybe some people could, but I'm not built that way.  I can only believe what I believe, you know?

It kills me when Christians tell me "Just open your heart and pray, and if you truly have an open heart, you will find god."  Like the implication is, if you DON'T find god, that can't be because he/she/it isn't there or isn't answering, it must be that you're doing it wrong.  For years in my late teens and very early twenties, I spent a LOT of time looking for god because I had this idea in my head that you couldn't be a whole person unless you had some sort of spirituality.  But I just couldn't find anything that I truly believed in, and eventually realized that it was okay to just be who I am - an atheist.  I am a complete person all by myself; I don't need a belief in god to complete me.

As for morality - I think it's really funny when theists propose that atheists are only atheists so they can play by their own rules.  That sounds sexy and all, but in truth, I'm a pretty boring atheist by those standards.  I'm a 30 something mom in the suburbs with a stable marriage and a mortgage and a full time job.  I'm not out there being some sort of rebel without a cause.  I pay my taxes and (mostly) follow traffic laws.  I try not to lie, and I can honestly say I never steal or murder or rape.  I found a dollar in the parking lot of the Children's Museum today and even though it was only a dollar I still turned it in at the front desk because I wanted to demonstrate to my son that we don't keep things that don't belong to us.  I'm super mild.  It's not about escaping morality.  It's just who I am.

Quote from: Ali on January 03, 2012, 03:42:05 AM
I don't feel like I "chose" to become an atheist.  I don't feel like I had a choice.  How do you truly choose to believe something when it goes against what makes sense to you? 

When I first started talking about being an agnostic, and then an atheist, some of my more sympathetic relatives advised me to "fake it till you make it" -- belief in god that is.  They seemed convinced that would work, not understanding that's what I'd been doing for 17 years.  It didn't work.

QuoteIt kills me when Christians tell me "Just open your heart and pray, and if you truly have an open heart, you will find god."  Like the implication is, if you DON'T find god, that can't be because he/she/it isn't there or isn't answering, it must be that you're doing it wrong. 

Yep, fantastic little fail-safe isn't it?

QuoteIt's not about escaping morality.  It's just who I am.

And the scary part is not that some of us don't need a god imposing morality on us to see that the Golden Rule (which far outdates Xtianity) makes good sense, it's that some people think they do need a god breathing down their necks to behave decently, and what they might do otherwise.

Quote from: Ali on January 03, 2012, 03:42:05 AMI found a dollar in the parking lot of the Children's Museum today and even though it was only a dollar I still turned it in at the front desk because I wanted to demonstrate to my son that we don't keep things that don't belong to us. 

I would have let my kid keep the dollar, a lesson that being aware can be rewarding.
Some people seem like zombies in public, worse probably at least zombies are alert to opportunities to get themselves some brains.

Quote from: The Magic Pudding on January 03, 2012, 07:01:57 AM

Quote from: Ali on January 03, 2012, 03:42:05 AMI found a dollar in the parking lot of the Children's Museum today and even though it was only a dollar I still turned it in at the front desk because I wanted to demonstrate to my son that we don't keep things that don't belong to us. 

I would have let my kid keep the dollar, a lesson that being aware can be rewarding.
Some people seem like zombies in public, worse probably at least zombies are alert to opportunities to get themselves some brains.

Teach your kid to be aware of his surroundungs and belongings is a better lesson. Also, it IS ONLY  a dollar. :< ...seriously.

Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 03, 2012, 03:58:58 PM

Quote from: The Magic Pudding on January 03, 2012, 07:01:57 AM

Quote from: Ali on January 03, 2012, 03:42:05 AMI found a dollar in the parking lot of the Children's Museum today and even though it was only a dollar I still turned it in at the front desk because I wanted to demonstrate to my son that we don't keep things that don't belong to us. 

I would have let my kid keep the dollar, a lesson that being aware can be rewarding.
Some people seem like zombies in public, worse probably at least zombies are alert to opportunities to get themselves some brains.

Teach your kid to be aware of his surroundungs and belongings is a better lesson. Also, it IS ONLY  a dollar. :< ...seriously.

Yeah, I know.  I felt ridiculous handing it over to the cashier.  And like with a lot of things in life, this situation had more than one "correct answer."  Using it as a teaching moment to be aware of his surroundings would have been okay too, especially since it's only a dollar.  The thing is, when I found it, he said something along the lines of "You can keep that because you found it." And even though that's true, I didn't like the direction of his thoughts.  Sure, you can keep a dollar if you find it on the ground, but what if we had found a wallet, or a cell phone, or a toy?  I know of plenty of adults that would keep a cell phone if they found it on tre ground, and 3 year olds aren't great with nuances, or anyway, mine's not.  At that moment, in that situation, the lesson I wanted to give him is that things aren't autimatically "ours" just because we find them on the ground.  I don't believe in "finders keepers" for most things, and that was the lesson that seemed the most appropriate at the time.  You guys are free to let your kids keep money that they find on the ground though.  :)

Quote from: Ali on January 03, 2012, 05:03:00 PMYou guys are free to let your kids keep money that they find on the ground though.  :)

As you are free to teach your child the dollar will be returned Easter Bunny style to its owner.
I do wish you well even if I do seem wicked.

Quote from: The Magic Pudding on January 03, 2012, 05:11:42 PM

Quote from: Ali on January 03, 2012, 05:03:00 PMYou guys are free to let your kids keep money that they find on the ground though.  :)

As you are free to teach your child the dollar will be returned Easter Bunny style to its owner.I do wish you well even if I do seem wicked.

Bolded made me laugh.  I think the theory I was working on is that maybe the dollar's rightful owner would check in with the cashier.  "Excuse me, has anyone turned in a single dollar bill that I dropped in the parking lot?"  "Why yes!  Here you are!"  The cashier and I actually laughed at the idea that someone would come to claim it, but as she put it "At least it's nice to know there are honest people in the world."

I don't think you're evil, I just think that you weren't there, and even if you were there, maybe you would have handled it differently.  And that's okay too.  Like I said, in a lot situations there is more than one correct answer. 

Quote from: Ali on January 03, 2012, 05:20:09 PM
Like I said, in a lot situations there is more than one correct answer. 

I have to tell you, I enjoyed your story not so much for the moral involved but because returning the dollar was exactly what my Dad would have done.  It took me back.

Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 03, 2012, 05:24:34 PM

Quote from: Ali on January 03, 2012, 05:20:09 PM
Like I said, in a lot situations there is more than one correct answer. 

I have to tell you, I enjoyed your story not so much for the moral involved but because returning the dollar was exactly what my Dad would have done.  It took me back.

Good to know that other parents out there also subscribe to my "Go To Insane Lengths To Make a Point" philosophy of parenting.  Your dad and I are homies.   ;D

Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 03, 2012, 05:24:34 PM
I have to tell you, I enjoyed your story not so much for the moral involved but because returning the dollar was exactly what my Dad would have done.  It took me back.

My dad once drove away from a gas station and realized that he'd been given too much change back. He turned around, went back, and returned the extra. The guy at the station was blown away, and so grateful that he gave him a bunch of glasses (they were giving away free glasses as a promotion). We all thought it was hilarious. Dad didn't need the glasses, and he was only doing what he thought was right. He certainly didn't expect anything in return.

That stuck with me, though, which is the point of this thread. If I find money, or get too much change in a transaction, I always try to return it. Money on the ground is trickier, because usually we have no clue who to give it back to.

Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 03, 2012, 05:24:34 PM

Quote from: Ali on January 03, 2012, 05:20:09 PM
Like I said, in a lot situations there is more than one correct answer. 

I have to tell you, I enjoyed your story not so much for the moral involved but because returning the dollar was exactly what my Dad would have done.  It took me back.

Dear Odin,
Once my dad bought icecream and thought he was undercharged by 25¢!!! I am serious. He made us walk back in the freezing cold 4 blocks to return it. And the guy said "no, its ok, the charge was right."
I wanted to punch my dad in the face. Fucking hell.
When it is SUCH A SMALL AMMOUNT, JUST LEAVE IT BE.

Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 03, 2012, 07:57:31 PM
When it is SUCH A SMALL AMMOUNT, JUST LEAVE IT BE.

I think that's called Salami Slicing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salami_slicing).

Stupid parents. They should all be punched...

Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 03, 2012, 09:10:14 PM

Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 03, 2012, 07:57:31 PM
When it is SUCH A SMALL AMMOUNT, JUST LEAVE IT BE.

I think that's called Salami Slicing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salami_slicing).

Stupid parents. They should all be punched...

Interesting. :D

Quote from: Thunder Road on December 28, 2011, 09:30:47 PM
I'm curious to see where people actually fall on this accusation that I've heard from religious people that atheist are atheist so that they can escape morality and be hedonists, etc...

No offense, but that's kind of a stupid question. I have only ever met 2 atheists who would actually come out and say: "Oh yes, I became an Atheist because I wanted to do what ever i wanted." I mean seriously, it's hard to maintain "smartest religion in the world" with that admittance hanging over your head.

Quote from: Ransom on January 07, 2012, 12:38:36 AMNo offense, but that's kind of a stupid question. I have only ever met 2 atheists who would actually come out and say: "Oh yes, I became an Atheist because I wanted to do what ever i wanted."

I suppose that you have never heard what is a relatively common canard, which was clearly stated by the OP as the reason for the poll. You might have made your reply more relevant, though. You say that 2 atheists you've met said that they became atheist because they felt that it allowed them to "do what ever [they] wanted." Could you give an estimate of how many atheists you've met? By doing so, you would add at least an anecdotal data point regarding the percentage of atheists who are motivated exclusively by a perceived freedom from YHVH's all-seeing eyes, or whatever.

Quote from: Ransom on January 07, 2012, 12:38:36 AMI mean seriously, it's hard to maintain "smartest religion in the world" with that admittance hanging over your head.

wtf?

people are moral Before they can reason! Escape from morality is called psychopathy, a medical condition.

No one wants to be ill, and get this, people who Are psychopaths, are usually RELIGIOUS.

Sanity means moral, social, reactive, responsive and critical

If you trust in God, you're Untrustworthy because trust is a human privilige and not a subhuman rant

Quote from: pytheas on January 20, 2012, 12:54:06 PM
No one wants to be ill

Really..?

Quote from: Thunder Road on December 28, 2011, 09:30:47 PM
I'm curious to see where people actually fall on this accusation that I've heard from religious people that atheists are atheist so that they can escape morality and be hedonists, etc...

Do you see what you stated above as a possibility ?  It seems in our post modern era that western culture encourages  the mindset of moral relativism  which would seem to me  a springboard into  a very permissible lifestyle  without any/many rules .   Of course , this can apply to virtually any people group as our culture has a big influence on people of all persuasions.  

I did have a staunch atheist tell me recently that his atheism wasnt based on science , and i havent been able to find out what his atheism IS based on .

Oh yay, it's our best pal, SA!!

Well, people become atheists for many different reasons. We are technically born without religion, butbit is enforced on us by our parents or whomever.
I was never religious, but realised I was definitely an atheist at 14 when I first heard the term. Something aweful also happened to me that year that confirmed (for me) there is no god. So yeah...

Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 04:34:50 PMI did have a staunch atheist tell me recently that his atheism wasnt based on science , and i havent been able to find out what his atheism IS based on .

My atheism isn't based on science. My atheism isn't based on anything. My atheism is the result of there being no reasonable evidence in a god or gods. Just like my lack of belief in star shitting penguins, subatomic robots or Fred Astaire's clone.

Also: is that you Ex Atheist?

Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 04:34:50 PM
I did have a staunch atheist tell me recently that his atheism wasnt based on science , and i havent been able to find out what his atheism IS based on .

Why would you even try? If he's unwilling to tell you, then perhaps it's none of your concern?

Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 20, 2012, 04:42:12 PM
Oh yay, it's our best pal, SA!!

Well, people become atheists for many different reasons. We are technically born without religion, butbit is enforced on us by our parents or whomever.
I was never religious, but realised I was definitely an atheist at 14 when I first heard the term. Something aweful also happened to me that year that confirmed (for me) there is no god. So yeah...

I hope its ok with you that I struggle with some of things associated with atheism . Im sure that i am hardly alone.

I never asserted that people become atheist for one reason , and agree there must be several reasons why they do.   And as you pointed out,  it could be due to personal struggle within ones life  .  Ive had a few of those and i find almost everyone has  . 

I think its reasonable to assert that everyone is born without a religion (for obvious reasons) , but  as one goes thru their very formulate years of adolscence  , they become influenced by the public school system .  I wonder if it is this indoctrination into an atheistic worldview that many people find philosophically appealing to lifestyle freedoms (?)    Not all, but maybe a good many (?)   

Quote from: Asmodean on January 20, 2012, 04:48:04 PM

Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 04:34:50 PM
I did have a staunch atheist tell me recently that his atheism wasnt based on science , and i havent been able to find out what his atheism IS based on .

Why would you even try? If he's unwilling to tell you, then perhaps it's none of your concern?

It was this person who offered up the statement that it wasnt science which was the catalyst behind him being an atheist and it begged the question 'Then what was it?'  .   Not everything has to be 'a concern to us'  when we are speaking to another ... but can be simple conversing or curiousity.

Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 05:02:32 PM

Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 20, 2012, 04:42:12 PM
Oh yay, it's our best pal, SA!!

Well, people become atheists for many different reasons. We are technically born without religion, butbit is enforced on us by our parents or whomever.
I was never religious, but realised I was definitely an atheist at 14 when I first heard the term. Something aweful also happened to me that year that confirmed (for me) there is no god. So yeah...

I hope its ok with you that I struggle with some of things associated with atheism . Im sure that i am hardly alone.

I never asserted that people become atheist for one reason , and agree there must be several reasons why they do.   And as you pointed out,  it could be due to personal struggle within ones life  .  Ive had a few of those and i find almost everyone has  . 

I think its reasonable to assert that everyone is born without a religion (for obvious reasons) , but  as one goes thru their very formulate years of adolscence  , they become influenced by the public school system .  I wonder if it is this indoctrination into an atheistic worldview that many people find philosophically appealing to lifestyle freedoms (?)    Not all, but maybe a good many (?)   

What exactly do you struggle with in regards to atheism?  Of course it's fine to have peoplefrom all walks of life, but I would be interested to know exactly what your issues are.  Maybe my thinking is too black and white, but I'm kind of at the point where either you believe or you don't, you know?

Is that you Ex Atheist?

The reason I keep asking is because you have the same difficulties with punctuation, grammar, sentence structures and word choices as some other person I've discussed things with, who's username is Ex Atheist. Here's a sample so that you and others can compare them too:

Quote from: Ex AtheistWhich makes rational sense to you ? Nothing did it, because you dont want a personal Agent to exist who would then own the cosmos as well as you since youre in it as well ???? How did Nothing produce non material things such as Mind, Consciousness, Personality, abstract thinking, love, and many others ? No wonder the Bible declares it is a Fool who says there is no God. NOW is the time for you to change ---- dont wait a minute longer , for, you could be gone by tomorrow in an accident and have tremendous regret. Stop pretending God isnt real, trust in him , give your life to Christ and have all your accumulated sins totally erased . Then you can be set free and have joy knowing where you are going for sure.

Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 04:34:50 PMDo you see what you stated above as a possibility ?  It seems in our post modern era that western culture encourages  the mindset of moral relativism  which would seem to me  a springboard into  a very permissible lifestyle  without any/many rules .   Of course , this can apply to virtually any people group as our culture has a big influence on people of all persuasions. 

I did have a staunch atheist tell me recently that his atheism wasnt based on science , and i havent been able to find out what his atheism IS based on .

Another reason I keep asking, is because this Ex Atheist person has demonstrated troll behavior, shown to be extremely dishonest and has been a waste of time to talk to. So if you are the same person, then I'd rather just not bother.

Quote from: Ali on January 20, 2012, 05:14:24 PM

Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 05:02:32 PM

Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 20, 2012, 04:42:12 PM
Oh yay, it's our best pal, SA!!

Well, people become atheists for many different reasons. We are technically born without religion, butbit is enforced on us by our parents or whomever.
I was never religious, but realised I was definitely an atheist at 14 when I first heard the term. Something aweful also happened to me that year that confirmed (for me) there is no god. So yeah...

I hope its ok with you that I struggle with some of things associated with atheism . Im sure that i am hardly alone.

I never asserted that people become atheist for one reason , and agree there must be several reasons why they do.   And as you pointed out,  it could be due to personal struggle within ones life  .  Ive had a few of those and i find almost everyone has  .  

I think its reasonable to assert that everyone is born without a religion (for obvious reasons) , but  as one goes thru their very formulate years of adolscence  , they become influenced by the public school system .  I wonder if it is this indoctrination into an atheistic worldview that many people find philosophically appealing to lifestyle freedoms (?)    Not all, but maybe a good many (?)    

What exactly do you struggle with in regards to atheism?  Of course it's fine to have peoplefrom all walks of life, but I would be interested to know exactly what your issues are.  Maybe my thinking is too black and white, but I'm kind of at the point where either you believe or you don't, you know?

I think we all have friends who have struggles with their Faith/Religion/or acquired Philosophy  so i dont see that as anything abnormal ..at least not in my circle of friends.  As to the things i struggle with concerning atheism, maybe ill start a new thread  so be watching for it.  I guess the 'Lifestyle' room would be the best place to post it so ill try there .

Quote from: Davin on January 20, 2012, 05:19:44 PM
Is that you Ex Atheist?

Another reason I keep asking, is because this Ex Atheist person has demonstrated troll behavior, shown to be extremely dishonest and has been a waste of time to talk to. So if you are the same person, then I'd rather just not bother.

Have you got OCD too ?!   Its pretty contaigous in this place .  And, i take issue with your Troll  conclusion ;  last time i checked  the Forum Rules ,  it grants everyone who is a Member to attend whichever Room he/she wants for exchanging ideas/info/and to attain knowledge.   Stop the uncivil behavior with your accusations -- that is a violation in this Forum. 

Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 05:35:48 PM
Have you got OCD too ?!   Its pretty contaigous in this place . 

Am I the only one who thinks that this is out of line and a sort of backhanded slight against one of the members that actually has OCD?  Not cool.

Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 05:35:48 PM

Quote from: Davin on January 20, 2012, 05:19:44 PM
Is that you Ex Atheist?

Another reason I keep asking, is because this Ex Atheist person has demonstrated troll behavior, shown to be extremely dishonest and has been a waste of time to talk to. So if you are the same person, then I'd rather just not bother.

Have you got OCD too ?!   Its pretty contaigous in this place .  And, i take issue with your Troll  conclusion ;  last time i checked  the Forum Rules ,  it grants everyone who is a Member to attend whichever Room he/she wants for exchanging ideas/info/and to attain knowledge.   Stop the uncivil behavior with your accusations -- that is a violation in this Forum.

I didn't make any troll conclusion about you, unless you are the same person. I made no accusations, I've just been asking if you are the same person and gave my evidence for why I think that you might be the same person. If you are the same person, then I'll just ignore your posts.

Quote from: Asmodean on January 20, 2012, 03:57:22 PM

Quote from: pytheas on January 20, 2012, 12:54:06 PM
No one wants to be ill

Really..?

I stand corrected

Not consciously at least, certainly not if chanced with a sample taste of a healthier equivalent.

you may speak of freightening human mind indoor greenhouses with reactionary growth

I can not insist,  the rwandan intensive gardening example is part of your evidence

Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 05:05:19 PM
It was this person who offered up the statement that it wasnt science which was the catalyst behind him being an atheist and it begged the question 'Then what was it?'  .   Not everything has to be 'a concern to us'  when we are speaking to another ... but can be simple conversing or curiousity.

From the wording in your comment, I have assumed that you attempted to pry.

Quote from: Davin on January 20, 2012, 05:42:06 PM

Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 05:35:48 PM

Quote from: Davin on January 20, 2012, 05:19:44 PM
Is that you Ex Atheist?

Another reason I keep asking, is because this Ex Atheist person has demonstrated troll behavior, shown to be extremely dishonest and has been a waste of time to talk to. So if you are the same person, then I'd rather just not bother.

Have you got OCD too ?!   Its pretty contaigous in this place .  And, i take issue with your Troll  conclusion ;  last time i checked  the Forum Rules ,  it grants everyone who is a Member to attend whichever Room he/she wants for exchanging ideas/info/and to attain knowledge.   Stop the uncivil behavior with your accusations -- that is a violation in this Forum.

I didn't make any troll conclusion about you, unless you are the same person. I made no accusations, I've just been asking if you are the same person and gave my evidence for why I think that you might be the same person. If you are the same person, then I'll just ignore your posts.

This is interesting Davin, the punctuation issue is the same.
Even more interesting that SA thinks a reference to EA means an accusation of being a troll. Why does SA think EA is a troll?

Quote from: Asmodean on January 20, 2012, 06:28:55 PM

Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 05:05:19 PM
It was this person who offered up the statement that it wasnt science which was the catalyst behind him being an atheist and it begged the question 'Then what was it?'  .   Not everything has to be 'a concern to us'  when we are speaking to another ... but can be simple conversing or curiousity.

From the wording in your comment, I have assumed that you attempted to pry.

Everytime you ask a question then, YOU pry.

I'm agnostic and pretty much always have been. I'm more "christian" than 99% of the christians I've met, and I've met a lot. That's a large reason why I never joined a religion. I didn't want to be anything like the people.

My morals come from just general common sense and the desire to do and be good.

Quote from: Brieze on January 20, 2012, 06:52:13 PM
I'm agnostic and pretty much always have been. I'm more "christian" than 99% of the christians I've met, and I've met a lot. That's a large reason why I never joined a religion. I didn't want to be anything like the people.

My morals come from just general common sense and the desire to do and be good.

If i understand the Bible correctly (which is what Christians read and follow),  then you arent to get your morals from your own understanding but from the Bible ,namely, the teachings of Christ and major ones from the 10 Commandments .  Also, from what my Christian friends tell me,  there should be no such thing as a loner-Christian and such people get fueled from being in a corporate church envirnoment...much the same way that atheists find in their many formal Associations worldwide.  So if youre going to be a Christian, I think you should dive in all the way. And id say the same to an Atheist  .

Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 07:41:37 PM

Quote from: Brieze on January 20, 2012, 06:52:13 PM
I'm agnostic and pretty much always have been. I'm more "christian" than 99% of the christians I've met, and I've met a lot. That's a large reason why I never joined a religion. I didn't want to be anything like the people.

My morals come from just general common sense and the desire to do and be good.

If i understand the Bible correctly (which is what Christians read and follow),  then you arent to get your morals from your own understanding but from the Bible ,namely, the teachings of Christ and major ones from the 10 Commandments .  Also, from what my Christian friends tell me,  there should be no such thing as a loner-Christian and such people get fueled from being in a corporate church envirnoment...much the same way that atheists find in their many formal Associations worldwide.  So if youre going to be a Christian, I think you should dive in all the way. And id say the same to an Atheist  .

I believe the bible also says you should pray in your closet privately VS doing so in public (not exact quote but you get the idea), there's also a line about the road to Jesus is in your heart.
So, with that in mind, a corporate church environment goes against the bible/Christ's teachings and thus makes sucky followers. ISJ

I'm okay with admitting I don't know.

Quote from: Brieze on January 20, 2012, 08:07:26 PM
I believe the bible also says you should pray in your closet privately VS doing so in public (not exact quote but you get the idea), there's also a line about the road to Jesus is in your heart.
So, with that in mind, a corporate church environment goes against the bible/Christ's teachings and thus makes sucky followers. ISJ

I'm okay with admitting I don't know.

Matthew 6:5-8, in case anyone were wondering.

Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 07:41:37 PM
If i understand the Bible correctly (which is what Christians read and follow),  then you arent to get your morals from your own understanding but from the Bible ,namely, the teachings of Christ and major ones from the 10 Commandments .  Also, from what my Christian friends tell me,  there should be no such thing as a loner-Christian and such people get fueled from being in a corporate church envirnoment...much the same way that atheists find in their many formal Associations worldwide.  So if youre going to be a Christian, I think you should dive in all the way. And id say the same to an Atheist  .

Oh, this is so wrong in so many ways. Once more, with feeling. An atheist has no god belief. Period. End of sentence. There is no book, there is no meeting place, there is no set of rules. It is simply a lack of a god belief. We don't just pick our morals out of the air. We learn them from our parents, we see what works in the world. We see that our child cries when they're bullied, and so its obvious that bullying is wrong and bad and shouldn't be done. Ditto with murder, rape, pillage, etc. We are not blind. We see the results of bad acts on ourselves, our friends, our families. We have empathy towards our fellows (unless we're psychopaths) and want to be good so that they're not hurt. These concepts have existed for thousands of years. Certainly WAY before the bible was written. General moral concepts have existed in every society on the planet I'd bet. Details change, such as the negative attitude toward gays by some religions, whereas most rational people work out their ethical stance based on harm rather than ancient texts.

I really, really wish you'd come out of your closet so we could talk for real. I call you out as a religious person attempting to disguise themselves as an atheist. You clearly have NO idea what it means to lack a god belief, and I'm tired of your posturing. Honesty is a virtue. Please use it.

Edited to add: When I say "we" above, re: moral/ethical learnings, I'm generalizing. All atheists are different and these generalities are not part of an atheist code or something. I realize that could be confusing.

Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 06:46:16 PM
Everytime you ask a question then, YOU pry.

Faulty conclusion.

Quote from: Asmodean on January 20, 2012, 08:58:06 PM

Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 06:46:16 PM
Everytime you ask a question then, YOU pry.

Faulty conclusion.

Durn tootin'!!!

Questions are a good thing. My dad gave up Catholicism, and my mom gave up Lutheranism, in large part because questions were discouraged. Actually, questions were never answered at all. Here's the thing about questions. Its one of the only ways to learn. And the person being questioned ALWAYS has the right to say "none of your business." In fact, we count on it. If you feel something is too personal, don't answer. Simple. It's not our job to protect your privacy. That's your job. On the other hand, we're here on a social/intellectual forum to learn. So questions and answers are a major part of the discourse. I welcome questions. Always. Its a sign of a curious and active mind. Something that fundamentalists know very little about, to their detriment.

Why are catholics so against asking questions?
I guess because  knowledge and truth equal freedom from religion. :/

Quote from: Brieze on January 20, 2012, 08:07:26 PM

Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 07:41:37 PM

Quote from: Brieze on January 20, 2012, 06:52:13 PM
I'm agnostic and pretty much always have been. I'm more "christian" than 99% of the christians I've met, and I've met a lot. That's a large reason why I never joined a religion. I didn't want to be anything like the people.

My morals come from just general common sense and the desire to do and be good.

If i understand the Bible correctly (which is what Christians read and follow),  then you arent to get your morals from your own understanding but from the Bible ,namely, the teachings of Christ and major ones from the 10 Commandments .  Also, from what my Christian friends tell me,  there should be no such thing as a loner-Christian and such people get fueled from being in a corporate church envirnoment...much the same way that atheists find in their many formal Associations worldwide.  So if youre going to be a Christian, I think you should dive in all the way. And id say the same to an Atheist  .

I believe the bible also says you should pray in your closet privately VS doing so in public (not exact quote but you get the idea), there's also a line about the road to Jesus is in your heart.
So, with that in mind, a corporate church environment goes against the bible/Christ's teachings and thus makes sucky followers. ISJ

I'm okay with admitting I don't know.

The Bible says both...to pray by yourself to God in private and it also says not to forsake the gathering of yourselves (in number) .  The church environment is for corporate worship of God, to grow together with other like minded people, to learn more about God whether Christian or not,  and to serve and help in church or para-church ministries.  It is also a good place to meet married folks and single folks, according to your status.  Ive also had some of the best Chili there on their Chili Cookoff events. 

Its interesting to note that there was a study conducted recently where more and more atheist parents are dropping off their children at their local church ;  so obviously they see value in that environment (and the peadophilia problem is almost entirely the Roman Catholic Church and not Evangelical Churches) .

Quote from: Traveler on January 20, 2012, 08:51:38 PM

Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 07:41:37 PM
If i understand the Bible correctly (which is what Christians read and follow),  then you arent to get your morals from your own understanding but from the Bible ,namely, the teachings of Christ and major ones from the 10 Commandments .  Also, from what my Christian friends tell me,  there should be no such thing as a loner-Christian and such people get fueled from being in a corporate church envirnoment...much the same way that atheists find in their many formal Associations worldwide.  So if youre going to be a Christian, I think you should dive in all the way. And id say the same to an Atheist  .

Oh, this is so wrong in so many ways. Once more, with feeling. An atheist has no god belief. Period. End of sentence. There is no book, there is no meeting place, there is no set of rules. It is simply a lack of a god belief. We don't just pick our morals out of the air. We learn them from our parents, we see what works in the world. We see that our child cries when they're bullied, and so its obvious that bullying is wrong and bad and shouldn't be done. Ditto with murder, rape, pillage, etc. We are not blind. We see the results of bad acts on ourselves, our friends, our families. We have empathy towards our fellows (unless we're psychopaths) and want to be good so that they're not hurt. These concepts have existed for thousands of years. Certainly WAY before the bible was written. General moral concepts have existed in every society on the planet I'd bet. Details change, such as the negative attitude toward gays by some religions, whereas most rational people work out their ethical stance based on harm rather than ancient texts.

I really, really wish you'd come out of your closet so we could talk for real. I call you out as a religious person attempting to disguise themselves as an atheist. You clearly have NO idea what it means to lack a god belief, and I'm tired of your posturing. Honesty is a virtue. Please use it.

Edited to add: When I say "we" above, re: moral/ethical learnings, I'm generalizing. All atheists are different and these generalities are not part of an atheist code or something. I realize that could be confusing.

Dont be silly .  When people have for themselves the ideology of moral relativism and no God for ultimate moral accountability, which way do you think they are going to go ?!   Moreover,  the typical atheist is apathetic where stringent morals are concerned and commonly retort with :'Dont push morals on me'  .  People arent atheist because of a cogent worldview , rather as a man recently admitted to me ,  he is an atheist for OTHER than scientific reasoning.  In short, atheism has the benefit of being freed up from moral restraint .  Its the chief reason that militant atheists are the way they are toward anything Christian .......because its an infringement on their autonomy . You can see this plainly and daily .   Its exactly as the Bible reports.  Read Romans 1:19-22 in the Bible.    Now...thats not to say that atheists cant be moral because they surely can ...its just that  their own ideology of moral relativism  is the rudder in nearly every atheists life.  No morals =  more fun  .  If this wasnt true then you wouldnt hear from atheists :

1. No one is going to tell me how to live.
2. Right from wrong is a grey area.
3. Who are you to tell me what i should and shouldnt do .
4. If there is a God, then he gave us freewill do act as we want.

The above is a tacit admission to willful suppression of moral conscience .  Im sure ALL other people groups do the willful suppression thing...but the people group(s) that want moral relativism lead the way. 

Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 10:33:58 PM
... the peadophilia problem is almost entirely the Roman Catholic Church and not Evangelical Churches) .

Unsubstantiated claim. Right now the catholics are bearing the brunt of the accusations, but I know of absolutely no evidence that they're the only ones guilty. The only child molester I know personally was a conservative lutheran minister, but we've heard plenty of stories from just about every flavor of congregation, including evangelicals.

Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 10:42:19 PM

Quote from: Traveler on January 20, 2012, 08:51:38 PM

Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 07:41:37 PM
If i understand the Bible correctly (which is what Christians read and follow),  then you arent to get your morals from your own understanding but from the Bible ,namely, the teachings of Christ and major ones from the 10 Commandments .  Also, from what my Christian friends tell me,  there should be no such thing as a loner-Christian and such people get fueled from being in a corporate church envirnoment...much the same way that atheists find in their many formal Associations worldwide.  So if youre going to be a Christian, I think you should dive in all the way. And id say the same to an Atheist  .

Oh, this is so wrong in so many ways. Once more, with feeling. An atheist has no god belief. Period. End of sentence. There is no book, there is no meeting place, there is no set of rules. It is simply a lack of a god belief. We don't just pick our morals out of the air. We learn them from our parents, we see what works in the world. We see that our child cries when they're bullied, and so its obvious that bullying is wrong and bad and shouldn't be done. Ditto with murder, rape, pillage, etc. We are not blind. We see the results of bad acts on ourselves, our friends, our families. We have empathy towards our fellows (unless we're psychopaths) and want to be good so that they're not hurt. These concepts have existed for thousands of years. Certainly WAY before the bible was written. General moral concepts have existed in every society on the planet I'd bet. Details change, such as the negative attitude toward gays by some religions, whereas most rational people work out their ethical stance based on harm rather than ancient texts.

I really, really wish you'd come out of your closet so we could talk for real. I call you out as a religious person attempting to disguise themselves as an atheist. You clearly have NO idea what it means to lack a god belief, and I'm tired of your posturing. Honesty is a virtue. Please use it.

Edited to add: When I say "we" above, re: moral/ethical learnings, I'm generalizing. All atheists are different and these generalities are not part of an atheist code or something. I realize that could be confusing.

Dont be silly .  When people have for themselves the ideology of moral relativism and no God for ultimate moral accountability, which way do you think they are going to go ?!   Moreover,  the typical atheist is apathetic when morals are concerned and commonly retort with :'Dont push morals on me'  .  People arent atheist because of a cogent worldview , rather as a man recently admitted to me ,  he is an atheist for OTHER than scientific reasoning.  In short, atheism has the benefit of being freed up from moral restraint .  Its the chief reason that militant atheists are the way they are toward anything Christian .......because its an infringement on their autonomy .   Its exactly as the Bible reports.  Read Romans 1:19-22 in the Bible.    Now...thats not to say that atheists cant be moral because they surely can ...its just that  their own ideology of moral relativism  is the rudder in nearly every atheists life.

Then why is it that the more secular a society is, the less crime they have?

Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 10:33:58 PM

Quote from: Brieze on January 20, 2012, 08:07:26 PM

Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 07:41:37 PM

Quote from: Brieze on January 20, 2012, 06:52:13 PM
I'm agnostic and pretty much always have been. I'm more "christian" than 99% of the christians I've met, and I've met a lot. That's a large reason why I never joined a religion. I didn't want to be anything like the people.

My morals come from just general common sense and the desire to do and be good.

If i understand the Bible correctly (which is what Christians read and follow),  then you arent to get your morals from your own understanding but from the Bible ,namely, the teachings of Christ and major ones from the 10 Commandments .  Also, from what my Christian friends tell me,  there should be no such thing as a loner-Christian and such people get fueled from being in a corporate church envirnoment...much the same way that atheists find in their many formal Associations worldwide.  So if youre going to be a Christian, I think you should dive in all the way. And id say the same to an Atheist  .

I believe the bible also says you should pray in your closet privately VS doing so in public (not exact quote but you get the idea), there's also a line about the road to Jesus is in your heart.
So, with that in mind, a corporate church environment goes against the bible/Christ's teachings and thus makes sucky followers. ISJ

I'm okay with admitting I don't know.

The Bible says both...to pray by yourself to God in private and it also says not to forsake the gathering of yourselves (in number) .  The church environment is for corporate worship of God, to grow together with other like minded people, to learn more about God whether Christian or not,  and to serve and help in church or para-church ministries.  It is also a good place to meet married folks and single folks, according to your status.  Ive also had some of the best Chili there on their Chili Cookoff events. 

Its interesting to note that there was a study conducted recently where more and more atheist parents are dropping off their children at their local church ;  so obviously they see value in that environment (and the peadophilia problem is almost entirely the Roman Catholic Church and not Evangelical Churches) .

So.. Are we debating chuch or is this just a FYI? Or are you recruiting?

Quote from: Traveler on January 20, 2012, 10:44:23 PM

Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 10:33:58 PM
... the peadophilia problem is almost entirely the Roman Catholic Church and not Evangelical Churches) .

Unsubstantiated claim. Right now the catholics are bearing the brunt of the accusations, but I know of absolutely no evidence that they're the only ones guilty. The only child molester I know personally was a conservative lutheran minister, but we've heard plenty of stories from just about every flavor of congregation, including evangelicals.

I never said they were the only ones.   But, the RCC has paid out hundreds of millions of dollars just in the last century alone  to hush violated people  and in court of law judgements of Priests and Bishops.   The RCC has a paedophilia problem  and a coverup problem as well.   Do a google for independent studies on this.  Youll find tons.

Quote from: Traveler on January 20, 2012, 10:45:16 PM

Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 10:42:19 PM

Quote from: Traveler on January 20, 2012, 08:51:38 PM

Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 07:41:37 PM
If i understand the Bible correctly (which is what Christians read and follow),  then you arent to get your morals from your own understanding but from the Bible ,namely, the teachings of Christ and major ones from the 10 Commandments .  Also, from what my Christian friends tell me,  there should be no such thing as a loner-Christian and such people get fueled from being in a corporate church envirnoment...much the same way that atheists find in their many formal Associations worldwide.  So if youre going to be a Christian, I think you should dive in all the way. And id say the same to an Atheist  .

Oh, this is so wrong in so many ways. Once more, with feeling. An atheist has no god belief. Period. End of sentence. There is no book, there is no meeting place, there is no set of rules. It is simply a lack of a god belief. We don't just pick our morals out of the air. We learn them from our parents, we see what works in the world. We see that our child cries when they're bullied, and so its obvious that bullying is wrong and bad and shouldn't be done. Ditto with murder, rape, pillage, etc. We are not blind. We see the results of bad acts on ourselves, our friends, our families. We have empathy towards our fellows (unless we're psychopaths) and want to be good so that they're not hurt. These concepts have existed for thousands of years. Certainly WAY before the bible was written. General moral concepts have existed in every society on the planet I'd bet. Details change, such as the negative attitude toward gays by some religions, whereas most rational people work out their ethical stance based on harm rather than ancient texts.

I really, really wish you'd come out of your closet so we could talk for real. I call you out as a religious person attempting to disguise themselves as an atheist. You clearly have NO idea what it means to lack a god belief, and I'm tired of your posturing. Honesty is a virtue. Please use it.

Edited to add: When I say "we" above, re: moral/ethical learnings, I'm generalizing. All atheists are different and these generalities are not part of an atheist code or something. I realize that could be confusing.

Dont be silly .  When people have for themselves the ideology of moral relativism and no God for ultimate moral accountability, which way do you think they are going to go ?!   Moreover,  the typical atheist is apathetic when morals are concerned and commonly retort with :'Dont push morals on me'  .  People arent atheist because of a cogent worldview , rather as a man recently admitted to me ,  he is an atheist for OTHER than scientific reasoning.  In short, atheism has the benefit of being freed up from moral restraint .  Its the chief reason that militant atheists are the way they are toward anything Christian .......because its an infringement on their autonomy .   Its exactly as the Bible reports.  Read Romans 1:19-22 in the Bible.    Now...thats not to say that atheists cant be moral because they surely can ...its just that  their own ideology of moral relativism  is the rudder in nearly every atheists life.

Then why is it that the more secular a society is, the less crime they have?

First read this definition of 'secular'  : 
sec·u·lar
   [sek-yuh-ler]

adjective

of or pertaining to worldly things or to things that are not regarded as religious, spiritual, or sacred; temporal: secular interests.

A secular society is one that doesnt hold anything sacred , not even ones personal genitilia .  And you think crime in a secular society is lower ?!   One only need look at all the current societal ills of today to see that a secular american (and UK) society has been devastating for society.  The effects of atheistic moral relativism and moral-apathy  is the catalyst behind EVERY crime committed.   You know things are pretty bad when the masses are willing to pretend two men making love with each others feces and fisting each other up the a_ _   along with two women jamming foreign objects up one anothers vagina  ... is considered healthy and morally permissible.  It shows how readily the masses are willing to suppress their moral consciences  fueld by total apathy toward degradation.  Most people are so brainwashed, they truly dont know or care about right from wrong any longer .  They have reprobate minds and gather around them like minded people for justification of their perverted and disgusting MO .    So please...dont make absurd declarations that a secular society is better, good, and of less crime ... in the name of common sense and truth.

Quote from: Brieze on January 20, 2012, 10:52:43 PM

Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 10:33:58 PM

Quote from: Brieze on January 20, 2012, 08:07:26 PM

Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 07:41:37 PM

Quote from: Brieze on January 20, 2012, 06:52:13 PM
I'm agnostic and pretty much always have been. I'm more "christian" than 99% of the christians I've met, and I've met a lot. That's a large reason why I never joined a religion. I didn't want to be anything like the people.

My morals come from just general common sense and the desire to do and be good.

If i understand the Bible correctly (which is what Christians read and follow),  then you arent to get your morals from your own understanding but from the Bible ,namely, the teachings of Christ and major ones from the 10 Commandments .  Also, from what my Christian friends tell me,  there should be no such thing as a loner-Christian and such people get fueled from being in a corporate church envirnoment...much the same way that atheists find in their many formal Associations worldwide.  So if youre going to be a Christian, I think you should dive in all the way. And id say the same to an Atheist  .

I believe the bible also says you should pray in your closet privately VS doing so in public (not exact quote but you get the idea), there's also a line about the road to Jesus is in your heart.
So, with that in mind, a corporate church environment goes against the bible/Christ's teachings and thus makes sucky followers. ISJ

I'm okay with admitting I don't know.

The Bible says both...to pray by yourself to God in private and it also says not to forsake the gathering of yourselves (in number) .  The church environment is for corporate worship of God, to grow together with other like minded people, to learn more about God whether Christian or not,  and to serve and help in church or para-church ministries.  It is also a good place to meet married folks and single folks, according to your status.  Ive also had some of the best Chili there on their Chili Cookoff events. 

Its interesting to note that there was a study conducted recently where more and more atheist parents are dropping off their children at their local church ;  so obviously they see value in that environment (and the peadophilia problem is almost entirely the Roman Catholic Church and not Evangelical Churches) .

So.. Are we debating chuch or is this just a FYI? Or are you recruiting?

Just stating the facts .   I sure aint going to recruit for anything atheistic by nature .  At least The Christian Faith has proper moral ideology , even if some followers fail in that regard.  With atheism,  its open season for anything-goes.

(( Head desking so hard. ))
So all atheists are vile marauders who rape and punder, right?

Please, SA, just admit you are christian who has no interest in leaving your religious views.
From everything i've read, you seem to want to someone prove morals and manners come from the church.  You have a very weak argument,and have yet to secular society = chaos.

Two words : middle east. Religion has kept them so peaceful. :)

Quote from: Liar For Jesus on January 20, 2012, 11:14:38 PM
First read this definition of 'secular'  : 
sec·u·lar
   [sek-yuh-ler]

adjective

of or pertaining to worldly things or to things that are not regarded as religious, spiritual, or sacred; temporal: secular interests.

A secular society is one that doesnt hold anything sacred , not even ones personal genitilia .  And you think crime in a secular society is lower ?!   One only need look at all the current societal ills of today to see that a secular american (and UK) society has been devastating for society.  The effects of atheistic moral relativism and moral-apathy  is the catalyst behind EVERY crime committed.   You know things are pretty bad when the masses are willing to pretend two men making love with each others feces and fisting each other up the a_ _   along with two women jamming foreign objects up one anothers vagina  ... is considered healthy and morally permissible.  It shows how readily the masses are willing to suppress their moral consciences  fueld by total apathy toward degradation.  Most people are so brainwashed, they truly dont know or care about right from wrong any longer .  They have reprobate minds and gather around them like minded people for justification of their perverted and disgusting MO .    So please...dont make absurd declarations that a secular society is better, good, and of less crime ... in the name of common sense and truth.

You are really living up to your name today.

I don't even know where to begin on how wrong you are or how inappropriate it is for you to twist a word in order to make anyone that isn't religious sound like they are all immoral whores.  If you can't learn how to discuss subjects in a civil manner you will be banned.  warning 2.  Honestly, if I were you I'd be ashamed.

If religious moral teachings are so important for a safe and stable society, why does 85% christian USA have ten times more reported crime per capita then 95% secular Japan?

Why is the rate of repeat offenders in the US prison system 7/10, when in 85% atheist Norway it is only 2/10?

Why are atheists in the american prison system 0,02% of the prison population when the number of atheists in the society is 10% or more?

You have no argument. Concede the defeat.

Quote from: Guardian85 on January 21, 2012, 12:05:49 AM
If religious moral teachings are so important for a safe and stable society, why does 85% christian USA have ten times more reported crime per capita then 95% secular Japan?

Why is the rate of repeat offenders in the US prison system 7/10, when in 85% atheist Norway it is only 2/10?

Why are atheists in the american prison system 0,02% of the prison population when the number of atheists in the society is 10% or more?

You have no argument. Concede the defeat.

He just got served!

Quote from: Liar For Jesus on January 20, 2012, 11:17:18 PM

Quote from: Brieze on January 20, 2012, 10:52:43 PM

Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 10:33:58 PM

Quote from: Brieze on January 20, 2012, 08:07:26 PM

Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 07:41:37 PM

Quote from: Brieze on January 20, 2012, 06:52:13 PM
I'm agnostic and pretty much always have been. I'm more "christian" than 99% of the christians I've met, and I've met a lot. That's a large reason why I never joined a religion. I didn't want to be anything like the people.

My morals come from just general common sense and the desire to do and be good.

If i understand the Bible correctly (which is what Christians read and follow),  then you arent to get your morals from your own understanding but from the Bible ,namely, the teachings of Christ and major ones from the 10 Commandments .  Also, from what my Christian friends tell me,  there should be no such thing as a loner-Christian and such people get fueled from being in a corporate church envirnoment...much the same way that atheists find in their many formal Associations worldwide.  So if youre going to be a Christian, I think you should dive in all the way. And id say the same to an Atheist  .

I believe the bible also says you should pray in your closet privately VS doing so in public (not exact quote but you get the idea), there's also a line about the road to Jesus is in your heart.
So, with that in mind, a corporate church environment goes against the bible/Christ's teachings and thus makes sucky followers. ISJ

I'm okay with admitting I don't know.

The Bible says both...to pray by yourself to God in private and it also says not to forsake the gathering of yourselves (in number) .  The church environment is for corporate worship of God, to grow together with other like minded people, to learn more about God whether Christian or not,  and to serve and help in church or para-church ministries.  It is also a good place to meet married folks and single folks, according to your status.  Ive also had some of the best Chili there on their Chili Cookoff events.  

Its interesting to note that there was a study conducted recently where more and more atheist parents are dropping off their children at their local church ;  so obviously they see value in that environment (and the peadophilia problem is almost entirely the Roman Catholic Church and not Evangelical Churches) .

So.. Are we debating chuch or is this just a FYI? Or are you recruiting?

Just stating the facts .   I sure aint going to recruit for anything atheistic by nature .  At least The Christian Faith has proper moral ideology , even if some followers fail in that regard.  With atheism,  its open season for anything-goes.

Whats proper ahout it?

If the followers don't, ya know, actually follow the ideology, how does that make their morals any different from your view on atheism morals?

The troll has finally shown his true colors. I love his new screen name (Liar For Jesus, in case it gets changed before anyone reads this).

Courtersy of Whitney. Go Whitney!

Any bones left for The Asmo to pick here? Apparently, the fun sort of started and then ended while he was asleep.  :(

Quote from: Asmodean on January 21, 2012, 06:47:06 AM
Any bones left for The Asmo to pick here? Apparently, the fun sort of started and then ended while he was asleep.  :(

Sorry, Asmo. :-\

I think i might have killed him. (figuatively)

Quote from: Guardian85 on January 21, 2012, 09:24:57 AM
I think i might have killed him. (figuatively)

Tell me more of this "figuatively" manner of killing.
Does it involve twisted rope?

No, just bashing with irrefutable arguments. Hence the "figuratively".
Though he might have had a stroke. Who knows?

Quote from: Liar For Jesus on January 20, 2012, 11:14:38 PM
You know things are pretty bad when the masses are willing to pretend two men making love with each others feces and fisting each other up the a_ _   along with two women jamming foreign objects up one anothers vagina  ... is considered healthy and morally permissible. 

And there it is -- no rational argument, no medical facts, just sexual hysteria resulting from a personally offended "ick factor" and a misunderstanding of same-sex behavior so wild it makes me wonder if Liar for Jesus has ever had any kind of sex at all.  Seriously, LfJ, I'm not suggesting you should be gay or even bi-curious, but you do need help getting over the sexual hysteria -- that cannot be making your life in any way better.

Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 21, 2012, 08:45:43 PM

Quote from: Liar For Jesus on January 20, 2012, 11:14:38 PM
You know things are pretty bad when the masses are willing to pretend two men making love with each others feces and fisting each other up the a_ _   along with two women jamming foreign objects up one anothers vagina  ... is considered healthy and morally permissible. 

And there it is -- no rational argument, no medical facts, just sexual hysteria resulting from a personally offended "ick factor" and a misunderstanding of same-sex behavior so wild it makes me wonder if Liar for Jesus has ever had any kind of sex at all.  Seriously, LfJ, I'm not suggesting you should be gay or even bi-curious, but you do need help getting over the sexual hysteria -- that cannot be making your life in any way better.

His behaviour is the very definition of 'homophobic'.

Quote from: Tank on January 21, 2012, 08:51:50 PM
His behaviour is the very definition of 'homophobic'.

Hmm... Phobias...

The Asmo needs one of his own. Asmophobia - the irrational fear of being consumed alive by an armada of raging Asmos and dissolved screaming in their digestive juices.  :D

Quote from: Asmodean on January 21, 2012, 09:02:27 PM

Quote from: Tank on January 21, 2012, 08:51:50 PM
His behaviour is the very definition of 'homophobic'.

Hmm... Phobias...

The Asmo needs one of his own. Asmophobia - the irrational fear of being consumed alive by an armada of raging Asmos and dissolved screaming in their digestive juices.  :D

I must draw this. An army of asmos!!
Made me think.of the starship trooper parody in Futurama when they were fighting the alien spheres. Except they should be Asmos!

Quote from: Asmodean on January 21, 2012, 09:02:27 PM
The Asmo needs one of his own. Asmophobia - the irrational fear of being consumed alive by an armada of raging Asmos and dissolved screaming in their digestive juices.  :D

So you are saying this is an irrational fear?
OK, I'll start work on minimising it.
But dismissing our well founded fears could easily be part of your evil plan, it makes us vulnerable.

Quote from: The Magic Pudding on January 22, 2012, 02:34:36 AM

Quote from: Asmodean on January 21, 2012, 09:02:27 PM
The Asmo needs one of his own. Asmophobia - the irrational fear of being consumed alive by an armada of raging Asmos and dissolved screaming in their digestive juices.  :D

So you are saying this is an irrational fear?
OK, I'll start work on minimising it.
But dismissing our well founded fears could easily be part of your evil plan, it makes us vulnerable.

Hush! Not so LOUD!  :o

Asmo, I'd love to be your second in command. But only if you find me worthy of the responsibilities of, urm... "raising morale." (Woo hoo! twisted rope!) ;D

I like how this thread completely took off without me...

Quote from: Thunder Road on January 24, 2012, 07:05:07 AM
I like how this thread completely took off without me...

Yeah, where the bloody hell have you been??

Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 24, 2012, 09:08:34 PM

Quote from: Thunder Road on January 24, 2012, 07:05:07 AM
I like how this thread completely took off without me...

Yeah, where the bloody hell have you been??

Eh I got the statistics I needed.  I'm not really sure what's been going on in the last 4 or so pages, ha.

I decided to become an atheist so that i COULD become moral.

No way! My morals never actually had a thing to do with being a Christian. I don't need religion to tell me what is right and wrong, especially when what it oftentimes considers wrong has no real base to it (like homosexuality). My values are more based on doing no harm to others, and religion doesn't need to tell me that harming others is wrong.

Quote from: znk666 on January 25, 2012, 02:43:09 PM
I decided to become an atheist so that i COULD become moral.

Essential!
+1
Well done

I'm amazed Christians come out with this knd of BS, and I have heard it from quite a few. LfJ pretty much said the same thing recently on this forum. Yet I've never heard an atheist turn the argument on a Christian, which seems just as valid a thing to do. Maybe we should ask Christians who raise this question if they only chose to become Christian because they crave power and want to play god and tell others what to believe and do, and force their ideas of morality on others. Are such Christians just little Hitlers?

Someone told me Hitler was christian, but I don't remember reading about it. It probably isnt too far fetched.

Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 28, 2012, 06:35:38 PM
Someone told me Hitler was christian, but I don't remember reading about it. It probably isnt too far fetched.

Roman catholic, methink... It's pretty much common knowledge for those who care to research him and/or that period in European history, although his religious affiliation is hardly one of his defining characteristis.

Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 28, 2012, 06:35:38 PM
Someone told me Hitler was christian, but I don't remember reading about it. It probably isnt too far fetched.

If you read "Mein Kampf", as I have (horrible book), you will find it full of references to God and the doing of the lords work.

QuoteHence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord. (p. 65)

QuoteFor this, to be sure, from the child's primer down to the last newspaper, every theater and every movie house, every advertising pillar and every billboard, must be pressed into the service of this one great mission, until the timorous prayer of our present parlor patriots: 'Lord, make us free!' is transformed in the brain of the smallest boy into the burning plea: 'Almighty God, bless our arms when the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!' (pp. 632-633)

Thanks for clarifying that, Guardian!
Yikes, more of god's faithful followers. Irony at its best.

Yes, yes, and HELL yes!  I became atheist so I could have sex with whomever (willing) and whenever I want!  I was tired of God telling me to keep my pants on!  I was tired of thinking of Grandma watching me play with myself!  Now I'm free to know that I do have complete and total privacy in those times when I want complete and total privacy.

While I have the freedom to sleep with others, I still only wanna have relations with my wife.  She's pretty awesome, so, I guess I'm not totally taking advantage of this opportunity the lack of Hell gave me.

Quote from: fester30 on February 01, 2012, 01:27:05 AM
I was tired of thinking of Grandma watching me play with myself! 

Good point.  I can't even have the dog in the room, let alone imagining all of my dead relatives are watching me.  No wonder religious types are so screwy.  Their pent up!

Just a quick reply b/c I dont have time to read the whole thread, sorry I caught this topic once it was already 9 pages long :o But I get really offended when people ask me how I am moral without God. Its actually frightening because (atleast to me) it implies that the only reason you are a good person is b/c you are afraid of Hell. I am a good person b/c it makes me happy, it is a selfish motivation. I am not nice b/c I should be or it is right but b/c I would want you to be nice to me and it makes me feel better when I am nice. I very much believe that you can have morals without religion and I may even argue your morals would be stronger b/c it is enforced with reason or logic not a threat of punishment

Quote from: m.condon on February 01, 2012, 01:55:17 AM
Just a quick reply b/c I dont have time to read the whole thread, sorry I caught this topic once it was already 9 pages long :o But I get really offended when people ask me how I am moral without God. Its actually frightening because (atleast to me) it implies that the only reason you are a good person is b/c you are afraid of Hell. I am a good person b/c it makes me happy, it is a selfish motivation. I am not nice b/c I should be or it is right but b/c I would want you to be nice to me and it makes me feel better when I am nice. I very much believe that you can have morals without religion and I may even argue your morals would be stronger b/c it is enforced with reason or logic not a threat of punishment

I like this.
I also feel I am more in control of my feelings. I'm helpful to others because it makes me happy.