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I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?

Started by MatureMcLeod, January 11, 2017, 12:25:59 AM

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Arturo

Really all it is doing is taking our rhetoric and putting his own spin on it and throwing it back at us. "Treat him the way he treats me", "an eye for an eye". It's not really interested in answers to it's questions, it just wants to spit its rules out and abuse our mind. I've lived long enough with this kind of thinking to recognize it when it happens. It's not cool to play a charade while actually you're about to escalate the situation. It's like if the USA dropped nukes in the Korean war. That was a small conflict that dropping nukes would not be suitable for.
It's Okay To Say You're Welcome
     Just let people be themselves.
     Arturo The1  リ壱

Tank

Quote from: Dredge on March 27, 2017, 05:44:30 AM
Quote from: Tank on March 25, 2017, 03:51:03 PMWe evolved that way. We are social creatures. For complex social creatures like humans, as opposed to social insects, empathy is a necessary quality for survival. Sharks are not social creatures. They do not require an empathic response to their own kind.
Human being supposedly evolved to be highly social creatures with empathy and a whole host of other complex thoughts, feelings and emotions - yet millions of other creatures attest to the fact that such characteristics aren't necessary for survival.   

And I wonder how some tiny little, almost-imperceivable mistake in DNA-copying could have resulted in even a tiny little, almost-imperceivable bit of empathy in the mind of some hominid that previously had none?  Then how did that tiny little, almost imperceivable bit of empathy result in a survival advantage? 
---------------------------------------------

I'm not against empathy, but why is it necessary for survival? 
It's not necessary for animals that don't live in complex social groups. Empathy leads to social bonding. We see it in the other great apes. It may not be necessary for our ultimate survival either. As humanity passed 'peak child' in 2015 we are now as a species technically on our way to extinction. So how humanity survives or not remains to be seen.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Tank

Quote from: Dredge on March 27, 2017, 05:15:02 AM
Quote from: Arturo on March 26, 2017, 07:09:23 PMLife as an athiest is liberating. We don't need to answer to anyone, follow anyone's rules.
Yeah, like Ted Bundy and Adolf Hitler and Pol Pot.
You've had one vacation for trolling. If you carry on like this you'll get another one.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Dredge

Quote from: Arturo on March 26, 2017, 02:50:15 AM
And like I've said in the beginning, we make our own meaning.
It's impossible to "make ... meaning" out of something that is inherently meaningless - unless one adds serious doses of self-delusion ... then anything is possible.

QuoteIf you think evolution is meaningless then it's nothing more than a figment of your imagination.
Richard Dawkins: "The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, nor purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference ... DNA neither cares nor knows.  DNA just is.  And we dance to its music."
"Natural selection, the blind, unconscious process that Darwin discovered ... has no purpose in mind.  It has no mind and no mind's eye.  It does not plan for the future.  It has no vision, no foresight, no sight at all.  

If you can find meaning in any of that, then you have quite a vivid imagination, to put it mildly! 

  Most humans need to believe that life has meaning, atheists included - despite the fact that their "science" says life has meaning.   But that's ok, your "science" also says it doesn't matter what a human does or believes or thinks.  Live in a dreamworld or don't live in a dreamworld; it's all adds up to nothing in the end.

QuoteScience does this as well and tests the meanings to see if they are true and worthy of belief by trying to falsify it. Then scientists record and analyze their results; which comes up with whole new meaningful ideas and inspiration.
Huh?  You've obviously missed my point.

QuoteI however don't attach meaning to evolution at all ...
Earlier in the post, you said this: "If you think evolution is meaningless then it's nothing more than a figment of your imagination".   Make up your mind!

QuoteWhat I've said here invalidates your argument.
I don't think you've even understood my argument, let alone invalidated it!

Follow the evidence wherever it leads.

Dredge

Quote from: Tank on March 27, 2017, 07:43:51 PM
Quote from: Dredge on March 27, 2017, 05:44:30 AM
I'm not against empathy, but why is it necessary for survival? 
It's not necessary for animals that don't live in complex social groups. Empathy leads to social bonding. We see it in the other great apes. It may not be necessary for our ultimate survival either. As humanity passed 'peak child' in 2015 we are now as a species technically on our way to extinction. So how humanity survives or not remains to be seen.
According to evolution, there existed ancestors of human beings that had no feelings of empathy at all.  Then, due to a series of mistakes made in DNA-copying, along came humans with empathy.   Since empathy is the result of random mutations, not only is it unnecessary for survival, it is meaningless, being neither good nor bad.  Creatures with empathy are no more worthy of life or important or meaningful than creatures without empathy.

Furthermore, empathy doesn't need to exist, because creatures with empathy don't need to exist.  Species come and go; none of them need to exist.  So once again,  "science" says empathy is meaningless.
Follow the evidence wherever it leads.

Tank

Quote from: Dredge on March 28, 2017, 06:24:30 AM
Quote from: Arturo on March 26, 2017, 02:50:15 AM
And like I've said in the beginning, we make our own meaning.
It's impossible to "make ... meaning" out of something that is inherently meaningless - unless one adds serious doses of self-delusion ... then anything is possible.
Hence religions. In the context of the universe humans are meaningless. But in the context of humanity humans are not meaningless. Our ancient ancestors couldn't stand the thought of their actual meaningless in the context of the universe so they simply made up delusions that they actually mattered. Because with " serious doses of self-delusion ... then anything is possible."
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Dredge

Quote from: Arturo on March 27, 2017, 09:23:38 AM
Quote from: Dredge on March 27, 2017, 05:44:30 AM
I'm not against empathy, but why is it necessary for survival? 
Then why are you arguing against it? Don't you know there would BE NO CHURCH without even basic empathetic responses? A wolf is strong on it's own but it can't take down a buffalo without a pack. A shark survives well on it's own because it is well adapted to do so. Humans are not. They would tear each other to pieces if they could not empathize with their counterparts. This is why wars are started, one side demonizes the other to the point of attacking them.
Again, you've missed my point.  I'm not arguing against empathy.  I'm saying that according to your "science", empathy is ultimately meaningless, making it neither good nor bad. 
The Christian view is that empathy is not meaningless, since life is not meaningless.
Follow the evidence wherever it leads.

Dredge

Quote from: Arturo on March 27, 2017, 08:02:37 AM
Quote from: Dredge on March 27, 2017, 05:15:02 AM
Quote from: Arturo on March 26, 2017, 07:09:23 PMLife as an athiest is liberating. We don't need to answer to anyone, follow anyone's rules.
Yeah, like Ted Bundy and Adolf Hitler and Pol Pot.
Not as bad as the crusades, or God, or the kkk, or neo Nazis.
According to you, God doesn't exist, so you can't lump him in there with the historical figures you mention.

Furthermore, the deaths attributed to communists (ie, atheists) in the 20th century run into the hundreds of millions.  Another atheist, Adolf Hitler, was responsible for a war that claimed another 50 million lives.  The deaths attributed to religion in the entirety of history are tiny by comparison. 


QuoteAlso, most athiests don't murder so you are naming outliers that are widley unrepresentative of who we are as a whole. Yeah some were bad, like a really small minority, like less than 1%, but most of us agree to the same set of rules that the rest of society does. We agree killing is wrong.
How many career criminals do you imagine would be Christians?  How many would be atheists?  (Hint:  Apparently, the first line of the oath taken by members of the Italian Mafia says, "There is no God")  I imagine comparing the figures would not add up to a good advertisement for atheism.
Follow the evidence wherever it leads.

Dredge

Quote from: Tank on March 27, 2017, 07:45:56 PM
Quote from: Dredge on March 27, 2017, 05:15:02 AM
Quote from: Arturo on March 26, 2017, 07:09:23 PMLife as an athiest is liberating. We don't need to answer to anyone, follow anyone's rules.
Yeah, like Ted Bundy and Adolf Hitler and Pol Pot.
You've had one vacation for trolling. If you carry on like this you'll get another one.
So t's ok to point out the crimes of theists, but pointing out the crimes of atheists is prohibited.  Got it.
Follow the evidence wherever it leads.

Dredge

Quote from: Tank on March 28, 2017, 06:39:05 AM
Quote from: Dredge on March 28, 2017, 06:24:30 AM
Quote from: Arturo on March 26, 2017, 02:50:15 AM
And like I've said in the beginning, we make our own meaning.
It's impossible to "make ... meaning" out of something that is inherently meaningless - unless one adds serious doses of self-delusion ... then anything is possible.
Hence religions.
Yep, religions, if false, can be attributed to a search for meaning and are pure delusion. 

QuoteIn the context of the universe humans are meaningless. But in the context of humanity humans are not meaningless. Our ancient ancestors couldn't stand the thought of their actual meaningless in the context of the universe so they simply made up delusions that they actually mattered. Because with " serious doses of self-delusion ... then anything is possible."
I've noticed that atheists are always eager to point to their "science" are the be-all-and-end-all of everything, but are very reluctant to accept that the very same "science" says that their lives and everything pertaining to their lives are meaningless.
Follow the evidence wherever it leads.

Magdalena

Quote from: Dredge on March 28, 2017, 07:01:50 AM
Quote from: Arturo on March 27, 2017, 08:02:37 AM
Quote from: Dredge on March 27, 2017, 05:15:02 AM
Quote from: Arturo on March 26, 2017, 07:09:23 PMLife as an athiest is liberating. We don't need to answer to anyone, follow anyone's rules.
Yeah, like Ted Bundy and Adolf Hitler and Pol Pot.
Not as bad as the crusades, or God, or the kkk, or neo Nazis.
According to you, God doesn't exist, so you can't lump him in there with the historical figures you mention.

Furthermore, the deaths attributed to communists (ie, atheists) in the 20th century run into the hundreds of millions.  Another atheist, Adolf Hitler, was responsible for a war that claimed another 50 million lives.  The deaths attributed to religion in the entirety of history are tiny by comparison. 


QuoteAlso, most athiests don't murder so you are naming outliers that are widley unrepresentative of who we are as a whole. Yeah some were bad, like a really small minority, like less than 1%, but most of us agree to the same set of rules that the rest of society does. We agree killing is wrong.
How many career criminals do you imagine would be Christians?  How many would be atheists?  (Hint:  Apparently, the first line of the oath taken by members of the Italian Mafia says, "There is no God")  I imagine comparing the figures would not add up to a good advertisement for atheism.
Wait. I thought Hitler was raised Catholic.  :notsure:

How many career criminals do you imagine would be Christians?
This article says that in the USA, 24% of the prison population is Catholic. Only 0.1% are atheists.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/are-prisoners-less-likely-to-be-atheists/
How the fuck is that possible, Dredge:eyebrow:

"I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe." ~Recusant

Arturo

Quote from: Dredge on March 28, 2017, 07:19:05 AM
Quote from: Tank on March 28, 2017, 06:39:05 AM
Quote from: Dredge on March 28, 2017, 06:24:30 AM
Quote from: Arturo on March 26, 2017, 02:50:15 AM
And like I've said in the beginning, we make our own meaning.
It's impossible to "make ... meaning" out of something that is inherently meaningless - unless one adds serious doses of self-delusion ... then anything is possible.
Hence religions.
Yep, religions, if false, can be attributed to a search for meaning and are pure delusion. 

QuoteIn the context of the universe humans are meaningless. But in the context of humanity humans are not meaningless. Our ancient ancestors couldn't stand the thought of their actual meaningless in the context of the universe so they simply made up delusions that they actually mattered. Because with " serious doses of self-delusion ... then anything is possible."
I've noticed that atheists are always eager to point to their "science" are the be-all-and-end-all of everything, but are very reluctant to accept that the very same "science" says that their lives and everything pertaining to their lives are meaningless.
Let me ask you this- How do you know what you think is real? How do you know what is really real? How can you tell the difference between the two? And how can you be sure of any of that? How can you be sure of anything dredge???

Quoteyou've missed my point
That makes two of us. I'm becoming more like you every day! Maybe one of us can show the other person how it's actually done and pull them out of this rut.
It's Okay To Say You're Welcome
     Just let people be themselves.
     Arturo The1  リ壱

Tank

Quote from: Dredge on March 28, 2017, 07:19:05 AM
Quote from: Tank on March 28, 2017, 06:39:05 AM
Quote from: Dredge on March 28, 2017, 06:24:30 AM
Quote from: Arturo on March 26, 2017, 02:50:15 AM
And like I've said in the beginning, we make our own meaning.
It's impossible to "make ... meaning" out of something that is inherently meaningless - unless one adds serious doses of self-delusion ... then anything is possible.
Hence religions.
Yep, religions, if false, can be attributed to a search for meaning and are pure delusion. 

QuoteIn the context of the universe humans are meaningless. But in the context of humanity humans are not meaningless. Our ancient ancestors couldn't stand the thought of their actual meaningless in the context of the universe so they simply made up delusions that they actually mattered. Because with " serious doses of self-delusion ... then anything is possible."
I've noticed that atheists are always eager to point to their "science" are the be-all-and-end-all of everything, but are very reluctant to accept that the very same "science" says that their lives and everything pertaining to their lives are meaningless.
Your reply bears no relationship to what I wrote, I never mentioned or even alluded to science. Please stop the 'bait and switch' tactics. But to address your unrelated point. I don't know where you have been looking but I have moderated a number of atheist forums and have never seen this odd effect you allude to. The reason being is that atheists do not accept that their lives are meaningless in the human sense. I don't feel my fleeting existence is in the slightest bit meaningless. It is what it is and I'm happy to experience what I do. Stop making up lies to support your points, it only makes you look disingenuous, ignorant and immature. How old are you? I ask in case I have assumed, incorrectly, that you are not a teenager.

"Yep, religions, if false, can be attributed to a search for meaning and are pure delusion.  "
Religions are false based on their inability to demonstrate otherwise. If you have evidence to the contrary please provide it. The burden of proof lies with you to provide evidence that religions do present a true and factual description of universe and its operation. If you can't then one has to conclude that religions are neither accurate or factual in any sense.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Davin

Quote from: Magdalena on March 28, 2017, 07:31:56 AM
Quote from: Dredge on March 28, 2017, 07:01:50 AM
Quote from: Arturo on March 27, 2017, 08:02:37 AM
Quote from: Dredge on March 27, 2017, 05:15:02 AM
Quote from: Arturo on March 26, 2017, 07:09:23 PMLife as an athiest is liberating. We don't need to answer to anyone, follow anyone's rules.
Yeah, like Ted Bundy and Adolf Hitler and Pol Pot.
Not as bad as the crusades, or God, or the kkk, or neo Nazis.
According to you, God doesn't exist, so you can't lump him in there with the historical figures you mention.

Furthermore, the deaths attributed to communists (ie, atheists) in the 20th century run into the hundreds of millions.  Another atheist, Adolf Hitler, was responsible for a war that claimed another 50 million lives.  The deaths attributed to religion in the entirety of history are tiny by comparison. 


QuoteAlso, most athiests don't murder so you are naming outliers that are widley unrepresentative of who we are as a whole. Yeah some were bad, like a really small minority, like less than 1%, but most of us agree to the same set of rules that the rest of society does. We agree killing is wrong.
How many career criminals do you imagine would be Christians?  How many would be atheists?  (Hint:  Apparently, the first line of the oath taken by members of the Italian Mafia says, "There is no God")  I imagine comparing the figures would not add up to a good advertisement for atheism.
Wait. I thought Hitler was raised Catholic.  :notsure:

How many career criminals do you imagine would be Christians?
This article says that in the USA, 24% of the prison population is Catholic. Only 0.1% are atheists.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/are-prisoners-less-likely-to-be-atheists/
How the fuck is that possible, Dredge:eyebrow:
Yes, Hitler was quite Catholic. Not to mention all the Catholic leaders that were happy with Hitler. Very embarrassing for Catholics that many had supported Hitler and his efforts. So much so, that many, like Dredge, like to pretend that Hitler was an atheist in a pathetic attempt to rewrite history. They don't want the worst human in modern history among their ranks, but what are they to do since Hitler wasn't an atheist? They lie. Dishonesty and religion are familiar bedfellows.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Pasta Chick

Quote from: Dredge on March 28, 2017, 07:08:59 AM
Quote from: Tank on March 27, 2017, 07:45:56 PM
Quote from: Dredge on March 27, 2017, 05:15:02 AM
Quote from: Arturo on March 26, 2017, 07:09:23 PMLife as an athiest is liberating. We don't need to answer to anyone, follow anyone's rules.
Yeah, like Ted Bundy and Adolf Hitler and Pol Pot.
You've had one vacation for trolling. If you carry on like this you'll get another one.
So t's ok to point out the crimes of theists, but pointing out the crimes of atheists is prohibited.  Got it.

Ted Bundy was not athiest either. He was raised and identified as Methodist after his arrest, although he also joined the LDS for a time.