Looking for stimulating debate

[Siz]

Depends on what you view as "harm".

Can you explain to me the harm done. If anything the experience of being in Church may well be educational... Indeed, Amicale even learnt the hardness coefficient of a strangers nose. The value of that is incalculable!

It's not the magnitude of impact - it is that an impact WAS made where there should have been none.

Oh please! Fractions of fractions... Technically, of course, you're right. But of all the imperfect situations to which our parents have exposed us, Christening is a loooooong way down on the list of causes of our own neuroses.

Has very little to do with faith, actually. It's just that the current object of debate is a religious ritual.

OK then, I think you're letting negativity toward religious ritual seep into reasoning here...

If my parents want the best for me as a kid, they will help me with the neessary and the important before I have the capacity and the wisdom to figure it out myself and leave the rest until I have the capacity and wisdom to make those choices.
Of course, the right thing is in the eye of the beholder (the kid, in this case), and the beholder does not really behold except in hindsight, so basically, what I'm saying is that if I consider something done to me before I had the capacity to effectively object or be convinced otherwise abusive, then it pretty much is.

If you applied that universally, you'd have been placed in a white box for 5 years... or more.

Intentions don't justify the outcome.

How else are we to rationally make decisions if not with intent? Is the outcome of my Christening something to be feared?

[Asmodean]

Can you explain to me the harm done. If anything the experience of being in Church may well be educational... Indeed, Amicale even learnt the hardness coefficient of a strangers nose. The value of that is incalculable!

If that is how you choose to look at it, than that is how it is for you. I wouldn't mind going to a church for educational purposes if I were invited and gave my consent. Dragging me (here, impersonal "me" as I was never christened) there as a baby to take part in an absolutely unneessary ritual that some potentially important people in my life would later see as a part of my identity, however, I am against.

Oh please! Fractions of fractions... Technically, of course, you're right. But of all the imperfect situations to which our parents have exposed us, Christening is a loooooong way down on the list of causes of our own neuroses.

I like my technicalities. And technically, while it doesn't even top the middle fo the list, it is still ON the list.

OK then, I think you're letting negativity toward religious ritual seep into reasoning here...

It's not only rituals. For instance, the same opinion goes to forcing an older kid to have the hairdo you want as opposed to what the kid wants.

If you applied that universally, you'd have been placed in a white box for 5 years... or more.

Actually, I'm only marginally crazy.

How else are we to rationally make decisions if not with intent?

Make decisions with intent, but be prepared to be judged by the outcome.

Is the outcome of my Christening something to be feared?

Hm... Despised, perhaps.

[Siz]

Your tenacity is impressive. I give up...

[Amicale]

My take on it is this.
1. Got christened/baptized.
2. Went to Catholic school for 3 years.
3. Had stints both as a Catholic and a Protestant.
4. Learned a ton about the Bible and world religions.
5. Became atheist anyway.

No harm, no foul, picked up some knowledge along the path, so I can use that when I talk with other people. It all works out. Even if the Catholic church thinks I'm one of them still, all they've got to show for it is a priest who got popped in the nose, and embarassing pics of me directing the youth choir at Christmas when I was a very young teenager. Hopefully, those scandalous images won't come back to bite me in the butt.  

[Amicale]

Your tenacity is impressive. I give up...

didn't your mama ever tell you never to bring a sword to a gun fight?

[Tank]

Your tenacity is impressive. I give up...

This is what I like to see. Members agreeing to differ 

[Sandra Craft]

It was easy for me to leave the Church of Norway. I just had to send a letter saying "LET ME OUT! Please."
And then they had to.

...And then they just re-instated you after two years unless you specified that you were NOT looking to join another religious community.

You have to give this to religious institutions: they are masters of fine print.

My take on it is this.
1. Got christened/baptized.
2. Went to Catholic school for 3 years.
3. Had stints both as a Catholic and a Protestant.
4. Learned a ton about the Bible and world religions.
5. Became atheist anyway.

No harm, no foul, picked up some knowledge along the path, so I can use that when I talk with other people. It all works out.

Yep, that's how I see it and why I can never see a religious upbringing as at all damaging or offensive to the rights of the child. 

Of course, the right thing is in the eye of the beholder (the kid, in this case), and the beholder does not really behold except in hindsight,

But, if you consider the eye of the beholder from the parents "beholding", they thought they were doing something necessary for the child before it was old enough to make its own decisions.  The benefits may have been religious or they may have been social, but 10 to 1 they did see a necessity there.

so basically, what I'm saying is that if I consider something done to me before I had the capacity to effectively object or be convinced otherwise abusive, then it pretty much is. Intentions don't justify the outcome.

I have to say, I think this is a dangerous philosophy.  It's way too subjective and leaves itself open for all sorts of nonsense, like that repressed memory hysteria we had in the States awhile back.  Or even far more minor things like grown up people whining about not getting a bike one Xmas and that their feeling of being neglected and unloved therefore meant they were (despite being well aware that their parents were doing their best just getting food on the table every day), and had earned the right to called themselves abused.  I heard that story years ago from a woman in group therapy -- despite how she beheld things, she wasn't right in thinking she was abused, she was just a crybaby.

[Ali]

...And then they just re-instated you after two years unless you specified that you were NOT looking to join another religious community.

What happens when you get re-instated?  Do they send you a bill or something? (I know my parents have to pay a yearly membership fee to be considered members of their church.)

I'm on the "Meh, who cares" side of the debate.  If some church believes I'm a member, my thought is "They also believe in talking snakes and babies born of virgins...."

[Asmodean]

What happens when you get re-instated?  Do they send you a bill or something? (I know my parents have to pay a yearly membership fee to be considered members of their church.)

No, they just send you voting ballots and shit for when some head cheese elections for the church take place.

Cats: missing the point. It's not about giving the kid whatever (s)he points at, but rather recognizing what is important to that kid and trying to accomodate it. When the child is a baby, one can look at it this way: Is what I'm about to do important and/or useful to the kid, or is it important to me and my aged mother-in-law? In case of christening, babies are atheist, so the second statement applies. And whenever that is the case, there is potential for unnecessary grudge-holding later in life.

Other than that, on me, the "you want that *point* skateboard? Well, it's not your birthday and it's not christmas, sooo... Do dishes for two weeks, then we'll talk"-line worked perfectly fine.

[Ali]

What happens when you get re-instated?  Do they send you a bill or something? (I know my parents have to pay a yearly membership fee to be considered members of their church.)

No, they just send you voting ballots and shit for when some head cheese elections for the church take place.

I vote that you get enough of your heathen friends to re-enroll in church, and then run an Asmo For Church President campaign.     If you can't beat 'em, join 'em THEN beat 'em.   

[Asmodean]

I vote that you get enough of your heathen friends to re-enroll in church, and then run an Asmo For Church President campaign.    If you can't beat 'em, join 'em THEN beat 'em.  

They couldn't pay me enough. And by that, I mean literally couldn't pay me enough. I'm not touching that institution - not even to ruin it. Is what minions are for. Dirty work is dirty, after all  

[Guardian85]

What happens when you get re-instated?  Do they send you a bill or something? (I know my parents have to pay a yearly membership fee to be considered members of their church.)

No, they just send you voting ballots and shit for when some head cheese elections for the church take place.

I vote that you get enough of your heathen friends to re-enroll in church, and then run an Asmo For Church President campaign.     If you can't beat 'em, join 'em THEN beat 'em.   

Besides, the head of the Church is the King of Norway.

[Asmodean]

Besides, the head of the Church is the King of Norway.

Yes, although he doesn't seem to make a big deal out of it, does he..?

[Ali]

Ohhhh, right.  New plan.  Asmo makes the King of Norway into one of his minions, and sets him to work.

[Asmodean]

His Majesty is not on The Asmo's bad side, he can therefor do his thing uninterrupted by the Evil Schemes.