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'Christianity under attack' in UK!

Started by Too Few Lions, February 14, 2012, 03:17:15 PM

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Too Few Lions

I was out in London on saturday night and I popped into a corner shop to be greeted by this headline in the always awful rag 'The Daily Mail'.   >:(



the accompanying article in the Daily Heil

All because an atheist councillor in Devon objected to Christian prayers being said before every council meeting, and a court upheld his objection, which seems perfectly reasonable to me. The place for Christian prayers is in a church, not in a town hall. I wouldn't want to have to put up with Christian prayers if I was a councillor, much as I wouldn't subject other councillors to a diatribe on why gods don't exist before every meeting.

We're getting a lot of this in the UK at the moment, Christians claiming they're being persecuted because they can no longer automatically subject everyone else to their mumbo jumbo, and lots of rubbish being written by Christians about us being 'a Christian country', and Christianity being 'our heritage'.

anyway, here's the other side of the story, from the National Secular Sopciety who helped support the atheist councillor's case;

http://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2012/02/council-prayers-unlawful-rules-high-court

Tank

Institutionalised superstition is for the heart, home and place of worship. Beyond that it should have no remit or need to get involved in public life. This sort of ruling is IMO simply putting religion back where it should be.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Crow

Quote from: Too Few Lions on February 14, 2012, 03:17:15 PM
and lots of rubbish being written by Christians about us being 'a Christian country', and Christianity being 'our heritage'.

This really gets on my nerves. If the UK is a Christian country then we are also equally a Pagan country, everything that is celebrated over here has its routes in the old gods and many people practice the Pagan traditions over the Christian traditions when they overlap.
Retired member.

Guardian85

Quote from: Too Few Lions on February 14, 2012, 03:17:15 PM

anyway, here's the other side of the story, from the National Secular Sopciety who helped support the atheist councillor's case;


Sopciety?   ;D
is that anything like a society?


"If scientist means 'not the dumbest motherfucker in the room,' I guess I'm a scientist, then."
-Unknown Smartass-

Tank

Quote from: Guardian85 on February 14, 2012, 04:09:40 PM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on February 14, 2012, 03:17:15 PM

anyway, here's the other side of the story, from the National Secular Sopciety who helped support the atheist councillor's case;


Sopciety?   ;D
is that anything like a society?
Were you just taking the 'p' there?
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Guardian85



"If scientist means 'not the dumbest motherfucker in the room,' I guess I'm a scientist, then."
-Unknown Smartass-

Recusant

I thought that edition of the Daily Mail was a classic! Amongst all the other superb journalism it contained, the "Christianity Under Attack" theme was demonstrated with two stories, the one you mentioned, Too Few Lions, and the heart-rending story of these two decent and lovely bed and breakfast owners


. . . who have had their rights trampled upon by the horrid gays and the anti-Christian courts.  >:(

Mail Online | "Your rights are trumped by gay equality, B&B owners who refused to let couple share a room are told"
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Too Few Lions

oh those lovely homophobic Christian B&B owners, 'persecuted' by being told they couldn't discriminate against gays. I'd had a few beers on Saturday night catching up with friends when I saw that daily Mail headline, it really made my blood boil, for a minute or two.

sorry about the typo G85, I was surreptitiously typing while at work inbetween doing job related things (O & P are next to each other on the keyboard - most of my typos occur that way!)

totally agree with you Tank and Crow, this country was unfortunately Christian for a thousand odd years, but it was non-Christian for thousands of years before that, and it's now happily secular.

DeterminedJuliet

As much as those two Inn owners look like the biggest idiots in the world, I do actually agree with their right to exclude whoever they want from their B&B. They're a private business. Most private businesses have the stipulation that they can "refuse service to anyone for any reason."

I think the best way to react to arseholes like that is to publicly shame them and boycott them for ever (I, for one, know where I won't be staying if I ever find myself in Cornwall). I still like to error on the side of liberty when it comes to governments dictating how we behave to one another.

The courthouse thing, though? I absolutely agree that that is foolishness.  
"We've thought of life by analogy with a journey, with pilgrimage which had a serious purpose at the end, and the THING was to get to that end; success, or whatever it is, or maybe heaven after you're dead. But, we missed the point the whole way along; It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing, or dance, while the music was being played.

Recusant

Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on February 15, 2012, 12:14:53 AMAs much as those two Inn owners look like the biggest idiots in the world, I do actually agree with their right to exclude whoever they want from their B&B. They're a private business. Most private businesses have the stipulation that they can "refuse service to anyone for any reason."

As far as I know, it's legal for B&B owners to discriminate based on age ("adults only" accommodations) in the UK, but I doubt that it's legal to exclude somebody on the basis of ethnicity, religion or sexual orientation. I also doubt that the common poster which asserts the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason is defensible in court. Maybe it's different in the UK, but I know for certain that in the US, discrimination based on the criteria I mentioned is illegal.
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Ali

Quote from: Too Few Lions on February 14, 2012, 03:17:15 PM
We're getting a lot of this in the UK at the moment, Christians claiming they're being persecuted because they can no longer automatically subject everyone else to their mumbo jumbo, and lots of rubbish being written by Christians about us being 'a Christian country'
http://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2012/02/council-prayers-unlawful-rules-high-court

This is the standard MO for the poor widdle persecuted Christians here in the US.  "What?!?  My children are free to pray any time at all they like, but the teacher won't lead it and thus try to coerce your children into praying too?  Persecution!!!!" ::)  Sorry that mentality has spread to your side of the pond.  One of the US's most pernicious exports? (Well, that and McDonald's.)

DeterminedJuliet

Quote from: Recusant on February 15, 2012, 01:10:21 AM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on February 15, 2012, 12:14:53 AMAs much as those two Inn owners look like the biggest idiots in the world, I do actually agree with their right to exclude whoever they want from their B&B. They're a private business. Most private businesses have the stipulation that they can "refuse service to anyone for any reason."

As far as I know, it's legal for B&B owners to discriminate based on age ("adults only" accommodations) in the UK, but I doubt that it's legal to exclude somebody on the basis of ethnicity, religion or sexual orientation. I also doubt that the common poster which asserts the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason is defensible in court. Maybe it's different in the UK, but I know for certain that in the US, discrimination based on the criteria I mentioned is illegal.

Whether it's legal or not, I don't think the way to fight bigotry is to legislate bigots from acting like bigots. I'd argue the same point if this couple didn't want to serve Jews or Atheists or Circus clowns. They're assholes, sure, but I just don't think preventing that kind of assholery should be the domain of the courts.

Of course, I know a lot of people feel very differently.
"We've thought of life by analogy with a journey, with pilgrimage which had a serious purpose at the end, and the THING was to get to that end; success, or whatever it is, or maybe heaven after you're dead. But, we missed the point the whole way along; It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing, or dance, while the music was being played.

The Magic Pudding

Quote from: Guardian85 on February 14, 2012, 04:09:40 PM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on February 14, 2012, 03:17:15 PM

anyway, here's the other side of the story, from the National Secular Sopciety who helped support the atheist councillor's case;


Sopciety?   ;D
is that anything like a society?


Quote from: Too Few Lions on February 14, 2012, 10:50:33 PM
sorry about the typo G85, I was surreptitiously typing while at work inbetween doing job related things (O & P are next to each other on the keyboard - most of my typos occur that way!)

I find it very disappointing that sopciety was a typo, it's an excellent word.
Sop: A concession given to mollify or placate.

I think we offer sops to the religious but it's only temporary, we can only put up with this crap for so long.

DeterminedJuliet

To add to my last thought:

Say we wanted to open up our own little HAF-Inn. Should we not be allowed to do that because it discriminates based on religion? Part of the reason we like HAF so much is because we're able to make our own community, based on our own rules, and we fully acknowledge that we discriminate (we don't allow preaching). If one of us owned a business that was a known "Atheist-hang out", should we legally, HAVE to allow people that we would ban on the forum as trolls into our business? Even if it completely destroyed the ethos of the place? I'm not convinced that we should.

I mean, these are Inn keepers. Their business is probably, literally, run out of their home. It's not Walmart or a fortune 500 that employs 15,000 people, should we really treat them exactly the same because they're both "businesses"?
"We've thought of life by analogy with a journey, with pilgrimage which had a serious purpose at the end, and the THING was to get to that end; success, or whatever it is, or maybe heaven after you're dead. But, we missed the point the whole way along; It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing, or dance, while the music was being played.

Crow

Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on February 15, 2012, 02:13:14 AM
To add to my last thought:

Say we wanted to open up our own little HAF-Inn. Should we not be allowed to do that because it discriminates based on religion? Part of the reason we like HAF so much is because we're able to make our own community, based on our own rules, and we fully acknowledge that we discriminate (we don't allow preaching). If one of us owned a business that was a known "Atheist-hang out", should we legally, HAVE to allow people that we would ban on the forum as trolls into our business? Even if it completely destroyed the ethos of the place? I'm not convinced that we should.

I mean, these are Inn keepers. Their business is probably, literally, run out of their home. It's not Walmart or a fortune 500 that employs 15,000 people, should we really treat them exactly the same because they're both "businesses"?

Yes you would and it's to try and stop bigotry happening on a larger scale. If an individual chooses to open up a business that deals with providing a service that will attract a varied clientele then they better be prepared to do business with that varied clientele.
Retired member.