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Icons and falling from grace.

Started by Dave, April 06, 2018, 05:34:22 PM

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Dave

Quote from: hermes2015 on April 07, 2018, 10:11:36 AM
Quote from: Dave on April 07, 2018, 08:58:43 AM
I wonder if there is a "universal set of rules" for srt?

No, and there cannot and should not be any rules. If there there were a set of rules, we would have had no progress in the visual arts and music. I believe the best "guideline" we have is consensus among academics in the field and other cognoscenti. Second best is probably what happens at the international art sales at houses like Christie's, Sotheby's and Bonhams auctioneers.

Hmm, perhaps I am going to expose what some might consider my "philistine", or perhaps "plebian", roots here. I rarely hold in opinion of tge cognoscenti in high regard. Probably goes back to the days of a TV programme with George Melly, some large woman dressed in black (and smoking cheroots) plus a guest who discussed some piece of art. I saw it as "jargonised-peer-opinion-pumping-aren't-I-clever"ness. There was, to my mibd, a feeling of mutual sycophancy, if one of these "experts" thought a piece was superb the others, if they did not like it, were very muted and conciliatory in their critical responses. If they also liked it they were ebullient in their support of the other's opinion.

So, for me, art is "that representation of the universe which has a meaning/message". By "universe" I mean absolutely anything, from the micro upwards, concrete or abstract, as interpreted and depicted/constructed by a human - art as in "artifice". A few marks on a postcard can, for me, be more meaningful than a huge oil painting. A hint of an eye with a raised eyebrow and the very corner of a smiling mouth in black and white - cah't remember where I saw it and wish I had bought it!

So, is art that which resonates with sonething in one's mind? I can appreciate good workmanship but it may not "move" me.

Sorry, folks, I am rambling. Have had these sort of internal debates all my life but never a chance to express, and test, them with others. And I have to come to my conclusions, not adopt another's just because they are considered an expert. A friend, a mild homophobic, hated Brian Sewell until I persuaded her to actually listen to him. Sewell had the knack of explaining art without stuffing it down one's throat, he offered and his own, obvious, emotionality played a part. But I also like the more ascerbic style of Jonathan Meades, though he has a wider field of interest.

Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Passed Monday 10th Dec 2018 age 74

xSilverPhinx

Quote from: hermes2015 on April 07, 2018, 04:48:15 AM
I have always wanted to visit Brasilia to experience those lovely buildings in person.

:grin:

My favourite building (though not designed by Niemeyer) would be the JK Bridge:



Especially at night:



:tellmemore:
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


hermes2015

Quote from: Dave on April 07, 2018, 11:43:28 AM
Quote from: hermes2015 on April 07, 2018, 10:11:36 AM
Quote from: Dave on April 07, 2018, 08:58:43 AM
I wonder if there is a "universal set of rules" for srt?

No, and there cannot and should not be any rules. If there there were a set of rules, we would have had no progress in the visual arts and music. I believe the best "guideline" we have is consensus among academics in the field and other cognoscenti. Second best is probably what happens at the international art sales at houses like Christie's, Sotheby's and Bonhams auctioneers.

Hmm, perhaps I am going to expose what some might consider my "philistine", or perhaps "plebian", roots here. I rarely hold in opinion of tge cognoscenti in high regard. Probably goes back to the days of a TV programme with George Melly, some large woman dressed in black (and smoking cheroots) plus a guest who discussed some piece of art. I saw it as "jargonised-peer-opinion-pumping-aren't-I-clever"ness. There was, to my mibd, a feeling of mutual sycophancy, if one of these "experts" thought a piece was superb the others, if they did not like it, were very muted and conciliatory in their critical responses. If they also liked it they were ebullient in their support of the other's opinion.

So, for me, art is "that representation of the universe which has a meaning/message". By "universe" I mean absolutely anything, from the micro upwards, concrete or abstract, as interpreted and depicted/constructed by a human - art as in "artifice". A few marks on a postcard can, for me, be more meaningful than a huge oil painting. A hint of an eye with a raised eyebrow and the very corner of a smiling mouth in black and white - cah't remember where I saw it and wish I had bought it!

So, is art that which resonates with sonething in one's mind? I can appreciate good workmanship but it may not "move" me.

Sorry, folks, I am rambling. Have had these sort of internal debates all my life but never a chance to express, and test, them with others. And I have to come to my conclusions, not adopt another's just because they are considered an expert. A friend, a mild homophobic, hated Brian Sewell until I persuaded her to actually listen to him. Sewell had the knack of explaining art without stuffing it down one's throat, he offered and his own, obvious, emotionality played a part. But I also like the more ascerbic style of Jonathan Meades, though he has a wider field of interest.

I don't think you are being a philistine, just pragmatic. Yes, these questions have been debated for years and I don't think will ever be resolved. The best is to choose what speaks to one, and not be too concerned what others say or think about it. There is a lot of "great" art I would not want in my home. On the other hand, some buy for investment and not necessarily for enjoyment, and they would be wise to see how the experts value a piece before they buy it.
"Eventually everything connects - people, ideas, objects. The quality of the connections is the key to quality per se."
― Charles Eames

xSilverPhinx

Quote from: hermes2015 on April 07, 2018, 05:05:26 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on April 06, 2018, 10:27:13 PM
I think it's a little unfair to a person when one places them on a pedestal as if they were some infallible human being letting others bask in the light of their incorruptible perfection. 'Followers' may not actually know the person they consider to be an icon, and so are surprised with a subsequent fall from grace. Why the grace in the first place?

A lot of it is image, which is marketed just as any other brand is.

I am the world's biggest Charles Eames fan, but that is because I adore his designs, especially his furniture, but I know very well that he was not a perfect human being (who is?). He had quite a few affairs that caused his wife Ray a lot of sorrow. He also rarely acknowledged the talented people who executed his designs under his direction, and took sole credit, with Ray, for the design icons the Eames Office produced. That was a reason why the masterly Harry Bertoia left the office after receiving zero credit for his contribution to some of the classics we label "designed by Charles Eames".

There is also an opposite effect, where people refuse to enjoy works of art produced by nasty people. Wagner is a good example. I wonder whether the world would have adored The Kiss (Gustav Klimt) as much if it had been painted by Hitler.

Maybe, in a parallel universe, Hitler painted something people liked and he got into the art school of his choice, going on to be come a famous artist. Maybe WW2 would have never happened, or at least never had him as a leader in that conflict. Maybe this type of speculation is pointless. :P

I don't know much about how the brain processes aesthetics, but there is clearly an emotional aspect involved. I doubt some people would be able to enjoy Wagner's Ride Of The Valkyries knowing that Hitler enjoyed that piece immensely, because of the revulsion people in general feel for the dictator. I think many people might find it easier to forgive Wagner's character flaws, because like you said, who's perfect? but don't want to be linked to Hitler in any way by association. The revulsion may seep...

Others find it easier to compartmentalise I guess. Or simply don't care what Hitler liked and didn't like and associate their own emotions and memories with Wagner's music. Maybe they heard it for the first time in an emotionally charged state of mind, maybe they heard it before knowing that Hitler loved the piece, I don't know.
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


No one

The pedestals erected in the name of an idol, often can not bear the weight of their gremlins of perversion.

xSilverPhinx

Quote from: Dave on April 07, 2018, 11:43:28 AM
Quote from: hermes2015 on April 07, 2018, 10:11:36 AM
Quote from: Dave on April 07, 2018, 08:58:43 AM
I wonder if there is a "universal set of rules" for srt?

No, and there cannot and should not be any rules. If there there were a set of rules, we would have had no progress in the visual arts and music. I believe the best "guideline" we have is consensus among academics in the field and other cognoscenti. Second best is probably what happens at the international art sales at houses like Christie's, Sotheby's and Bonhams auctioneers.

Hmm, perhaps I am going to expose what some might consider my "philistine", or perhaps "plebian", roots here. I rarely hold in opinion of tge cognoscenti in high regard. Probably goes back to the days of a TV programme with George Melly, some large woman dressed in black (and smoking cheroots) plus a guest who discussed some piece of art. I saw it as "jargonised-peer-opinion-pumping-aren't-I-clever"ness. There was, to my mibd, a feeling of mutual sycophancy, if one of these "experts" thought a piece was superb the others, if they did not like it, were very muted and conciliatory in their critical responses. If they also liked it they were ebullient in their support of the other's opinion.

So, for me, art is "that representation of the universe which has a meaning/message". By "universe" I mean absolutely anything, from the micro upwards, concrete or abstract, as interpreted and depicted/constructed by a human - art as in "artifice". A few marks on a postcard can, for me, be more meaningful than a huge oil painting. A hint of an eye with a raised eyebrow and the very corner of a smiling mouth in black and white - cah't remember where I saw it and wish I had bought it!

So, is art that which resonates with sonething in one's mind? I can appreciate good workmanship but it may not "move" me.

Sorry, folks, I am rambling. Have had these sort of internal debates all my life but never a chance to express, and test, them with others. And I have to come to my conclusions, not adopt another's just because they are considered an expert. A friend, a mild homophobic, hated Brian Sewell until I persuaded her to actually listen to him. Sewell had the knack of explaining art without stuffing it down one's throat, he offered and his own, obvious, emotionality played a part. But I also like the more ascerbic style of Jonathan Meades, though he has a wider field of interest.

I sometimes struggle to understand what goes on in people's heads when it comes to items such as art. My father, for instance, buys paintings that, to me, look a little cartoony and childish, which I would never buy for myself if I had money to spare. He adores them, I don't see the appeal.

I also can't stand the "expert talk" when it comes to art. I think one might comment on the technique employed but as far as aesthetic value goes, each person knows whether they like a piece of art or not. It's not for another to say whether a piece should be appreciated or not, these things seem to 'click' in people's brains and it seems people see things based on their own emotions, expectations and "baggage". 

Literature can also be the same way, especially poetry, when it comes to interpretation. There are so many cases of experts interpreting a poem in a way that is different from how the poet meant for it to be read, and this happens so often that universities here don't use a living poet's work in their entry exams!
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


hermes2015

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on April 07, 2018, 12:42:06 PM
Literature can also be the same way, especially poetry, when it comes to interpretation. There are so many cases of experts interpreting a poem in a way that is different from how the poet meant for it to be read, and this happens so often that universities here don't use a living poet's work in their entry exams!

I have an embarrassing confession to make: I struggle very hard, and usually fail, to understand poetry. I really only understand and appreciate Walt Whitman and Allen Ginsberg. There, I feel so much better now.
"Eventually everything connects - people, ideas, objects. The quality of the connections is the key to quality per se."
― Charles Eames

xSilverPhinx

Quote from: hermes2015 on April 07, 2018, 12:50:12 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on April 07, 2018, 12:42:06 PM
Literature can also be the same way, especially poetry, when it comes to interpretation. There are so many cases of experts interpreting a poem in a way that is different from how the poet meant for it to be read, and this happens so often that universities here don't use a living poet's work in their entry exams!

I have an embarrassing confession to make: I struggle very hard, and usually fail, to understand poetry. I really only understand and appreciate Walt Whitman and Allen Ginsberg. There, I feel so much better now.

I don't understand it either, I would just read it for the rhymes. :secrets1:
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


xSilverPhinx

I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Sandra Craft

Quote from: hermes2015 on April 07, 2018, 12:50:12 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on April 07, 2018, 12:42:06 PM
Literature can also be the same way, especially poetry, when it comes to interpretation. There are so many cases of experts interpreting a poem in a way that is different from how the poet meant for it to be read, and this happens so often that universities here don't use a living poet's work in their entry exams!

I have an embarrassing confession to make: I struggle very hard, and usually fail, to understand poetry. I really only understand and appreciate Walt Whitman and Allen Ginsberg. There, I feel so much better now.

Most of it just baffles me.  Dickinson and Frost are the only poets I can count on being able to make sense of.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany