capitalism = exploitation

[ped]

No, such a business would quickly go under.  You forget that "the income they generate" must not only pay worker incomes, it must pay overhead and capital costs.

okay lets reword it to say the net profits they create.

Governments and other non-profits, obviously.

obviously that wouldnt be capitalism.

No, it's because the options (taking out a loan, securing a location, developing a product, organizing its manufacture and distribution, etc) are a helluva lot of work that most people do not wish to undertake, and so they work for less in order to let the business owner handle these headaches.  In a very real sense, the profit they generate is the reward to the owner for being willing to assume not only these responsibilities, but the risks of putting one's own money up for risk.  How would you propose to get these things done without incentivizing them?

oh i see so the vast majority of the population work for less than they're worth because they dont want to own the means to produce or service? would there or has there ever been a case where someone wanted to take a loan but could not, had no capital to develop a product, and had no possible means to organize manufacture and distribution? is it ethical for risk to be rewarded with infinite profit?

hypothetically, is paying $.27 hr. to employees in a 3rd world child labor sweatshop not exploitation and justified with a $9,000,000,000.00 annual profit margin? they are making a market rate afterall.

Why single out capitalism?  Socialism exploits as well: if a state business turns a profit, it is exploiting customers who don't have a choice of product, and if it doesn't turn a profit, then it is exploiting taxpayers (who may not agree with the way the business is run at all) by forcing them to subsidize it.

if you want to start a thread about socialism thats fine, i was asking specifically about capitalism for a particular discussion.

Sad fact:  all of life is exploitation.  For you to live, something else must die, be it plant or animal.  There is no way around that blunt reality, and no sense in wringing one's hands over it.

so capitalism is exploitation?

[Heretical Rants]

I´d define capitalism as "the exchange of goods and services for mutual benefit."

You use sweatshops as an example in your argument. Fine. Indentured servitude and slavery are exploitation, whether they´re placed under an outside framework of capitalism or not.

[The Magic Pudding]

Exploitation can be defined with or without victimisation.

In a free market a business making an excessive profit per employee ratio, will find new entrants in the market, profitability will drop bringing the ratio back to a normal range.

[ped]

Exploitation can be defined with or without victimisation.

In a free market a business making an excessive profit per employee ratio, will find new entrants in the market, profitability will drop bringing the ratio back to a normal range.

why is the exact oppostite happening with 3rd world labor?  what is stoping a company from seeking lower wages instead of a lower profit margin?

I´d define capitalism as "the exchange of goods and services for mutual benefit."

You use sweatshops as an example in your argument. Fine. Indentured servitude and slavery are exploitation, whether they´re placed under an outside framework of capitalism or not.

they're not slaves, they have a choice. they're simply somewhat extreme expamples of the exact sample principle everyone else is subject to under capitalism. which is the difference between what you earn in total versus what you recieve for compensation, minus overhead and risk, is always a negative sum.

[Asmodean]

I still fail to see any kind of ethical problem that was implied at some point...  

[The Magic Pudding]

Exploitation can be defined with or without victimisation.

In a free market a business making an excessive profit per employee ratio, will find new entrants in the market, profitability will drop bringing the ratio back to a normal range.

why is the exact oppostite happening with 3rd world labor?  what is stoping a company from seeking lower wages instead of a lower profit margin?

If a company moves production to china, for a while their return on investment is high through low employee costs.
Other companies will move production, price competition will result, you get a lower profit per employee ratio.
The employees haven't benefited, the fat, nose-less, capitalist scum dog western consumers have.

And you can only drive wages so low.

[Thumpalumpacus]

No, such a business would quickly go under.  You forget that "the income they generate" must not only pay worker incomes, it must pay overhead and capital costs.

okay lets reword it to say the net profits they create.

In that case, the business model is doomed to failure.

Governments and other non-profits, obviously.

obviously that wouldnt be capitalism.

Capitalism doesn't hire anyone, organizations do, no matter what economic system they operate in, and they still have to meet budgetary accountability to the consumer, at the end of the day.

oh i see so the vast majority of the population work for less than they're worth because they dont want to own the means to produce or service?

No.  I'd advise you go back and read what I actually wrote, rather than injecting your own strawman into my words.  I said they don't want to do the work of setting up a company, and taking the risks.

would there or has there ever been a case where someone wanted to take a loan but could not, had no capital to develop a product, and had no possible means to organize manufacture and distribution? is it ethical for risk to be rewarded with infinite profit?

I'm certain that's happened in certain places.  Also, the profit is not, and cannot, be infinite, because neither the money-supply nor the consumer-base is.

hypothetically, is paying $.27 hr. to employees in a 3rd world child labor sweatshop not exploitation and justified with a $9,000,000,000.00 annual profit margin? they are making a market rate afterall.

Well, that's certainly a representative case <snort>.  Were I to deploy the same sort of rhetoric, I'd cite how GM's overly generous health and pension plans damned near put the company out of business, saved only by a taxpayer bailout.  I won't, because I'm smart enough to see that neither of these cases are typical.

if you want to start a thread about socialism thats fine, i was asking specifically about capitalism for a particular discussion.

Yeah, I gathered that.  My question remains unanswered, but to be honest, it doesn't erally matter.  Your bias is about as subtle as a kick to the groin.   I just wanted to see if you would be honest enough to put it in the open.

Sad fact:  all of life is exploitation.  For you to live, something else must die, be it plant or animal.  There is no way around that blunt reality, and no sense in wringing one's hands over it.

so capitalism is exploitation?

Re-read my point, and try to land closer to the bull's-eye this time.  Here's your cue:  All life is exploitation.  Got it?

Also, if you're truly interested in discussion, rhetoric is not the best way to go about it.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Also, a snippet of lyric from Neil Peart seems appropriate here:

So the maples formed a union, and demanded equal rights --
"The oaks are just too greedy, we must make them give us light!"
Now there's no more oak oppression, for they passed a noble law,
and the trees are all kept equal,
by hatchet,
axe,
and saw.

[SSY]

Ped, you seem to have some funny views. As a self employed person, and therefore, a kind of business owner, would you ever employ someone? Would you pay them exactly the amount of profit they "generate"? How would determine how much of the profit they generate?

[hunterman317]

It is because they have no other options. It's hard to explain, but corporations choose to pay less and consider their effort pushing paper more than the one building their 50 million dollar house. I swear if I didn't know the entire system (being as beautiful as it is) didn't have just that one flaw, greed, then I would drop out of college and get hired immediately. Private businesses are the same. Intelligence is crucial.

[Thumpalumpacus]

It is because they have no other options. It's hard to explain, but corporations choose to pay less and consider their effort pushing paper more than the one building their 50 million dollar house. I swear if I didn't know the entire system (being as beautiful as it is) didn't have just that one flaw, greed, then I would drop out of college and get hired immediately. Private businesses are the same. Intelligence is crucial.

The greed is human, not systemic, and shows in any system men devise.

[Asmodean]

Ped, you seem to have some funny views. As a self employed person, and therefore, a kind of business owner, would you ever employ someone? Would you pay them exactly the amount of profit they "generate"? How would determine how much of the profit they generate?

...Which was the reason I thought he was unemployed... Or a kid. Or both.

[hunterman317]

It is because they have no other options. It's hard to explain, but corporations choose to pay less and consider their effort pushing paper more than the one building their 50 million dollar house. I swear if I didn't know the entire system (being as beautiful as it is) didn't have just that one flaw, greed, then I would drop out of college and get hired immediately. Private businesses are the same. Intelligence is crucial.

The greed is human, not systemic, and shows in any system men devise.

If that's true, what hope can we have in government? How does this relate? Look at the federal reserve. Now look at the national debt (bank bailouts).

[ped]

Ped, you seem to have some funny views. As a self employed person, and therefore, a kind of business owner, would you ever employ someone? Would you pay them exactly the amount of profit they "generate"? How would determine how much of the profit they generate?

...Which was the reason I thought he was unemployed... Or a kid. Or both.

really? linking capitalism to exploitation is odd views? is this the first time you've heard the comparison?
no if i need help i split the profit like any decent person would do.  generally i have a friend or two help out when work becomes too much to handle myself. i would be totally ripping them off if i just said id give them $8 hr (or "market rate")......and they would have to be really desperate to even consider it. on the other hand i do like to pay bums with bags of pennies and some grape 20/20 to fight each other for my entertainment.

you guys seem to have a very odd ethics and be really bogged down in the capitalism dogma, which is why i thought you might be kids or something..

[ped]

Also, a snippet of lyric from Neil Peart seems appropriate here:

So the maples formed a union, and demanded equal rights --
"The oaks are just too greedy, we must make them give us light!"
Now there's no more oak oppression, for they passed a noble law,
and the trees are all kept equal,
by hatchet,
axe,
and saw.

neal peart....the libertarian. lmao. you going to quote rand next too?