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irreducible complexity

Started by yepimonfire, December 28, 2011, 08:02:54 PM

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Ali

Quote from: Guardian85 on January 13, 2012, 11:26:08 PM
The blood vessels in the eye are in front of the optic nerve. That's like designing a camera with all the wiring in front of the lens. Very bad design!

Well, and I think I recall from my anatomy class that the optic nerve is crossed so that when the images come in to the brain, they are upside down, and then our brain has to flip them right side up.  Or something like that.  That's also a silly design.

AnimatedDirt

Quote from: Ali on January 13, 2012, 11:33:48 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 13, 2012, 11:26:08 PM
The blood vessels in the eye are in front of the optic nerve. That's like designing a camera with all the wiring in front of the lens. Very bad design!
Well, and I think I recall from my anatomy class that the optic nerve is crossed so that when the images come in to the brain, they are upside down, and then our brain has to flip them right side up.  Or something like that.  That's also a silly design.

Yet they work perfectly.  I have yet to see anyone come up with even a schematic of a "better" design.

Ali

#17
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 13, 2012, 11:35:41 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 13, 2012, 11:33:48 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 13, 2012, 11:26:08 PM
The blood vessels in the eye are in front of the optic nerve. That's like designing a camera with all the wiring in front of the lens. Very bad design!
Well, and I think I recall from my anatomy class that the optic nerve is crossed so that when the images come in to the brain, they are upside down, and then our brain has to flip them right side up.  Or something like that.  That's also a silly design.

Yet they work perfectly.  I have yet to see anyone come up with even a schematic of a "better" design.

Really?  Even just uncrossing the nerves would be a better design than that.  Crossing the nerves and then having to flip the image again makes no sense and just leaves more places for things to go wrong.

Edited - sorry, the image is not backwards, it is flipped.  So left is on the right, and right is on the left.

Some people think this is why many Siamese cats have crossed eyes - they are not "flipping" the images correctly, and they are compensating by looking at things cross eyed.

http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/users/08/ajb/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Optic_chiasm.html

AnimatedDirt

Quote from: Ali on January 13, 2012, 11:37:30 PM
Really?  Even just uncrossing the nerves would be a better design than that.  Crossing the nerves and then having to flip the image again makes no sense and just leaves more places for things to go wrong.

So, have you tried or know of anyone that has made a schematic of how the uncrossing would be best...laying out a plan of sorts for all that makes the eye work?

Are you having a problem seeing?

xSilverPhinx

#19
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 13, 2012, 11:35:41 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 13, 2012, 11:33:48 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 13, 2012, 11:26:08 PM
The blood vessels in the eye are in front of the optic nerve. That's like designing a camera with all the wiring in front of the lens. Very bad design!
Well, and I think I recall from my anatomy class that the optic nerve is crossed so that when the images come in to the brain, they are upside down, and then our brain has to flip them right side up.  Or something like that.  That's also a silly design.

Yet they work perfectly.  I have yet to see anyone come up with even a schematic of a "better" design.

Eagle eyes are way better designed than ours.  8)

The good thing about using the eye as an example is that it arose independently many times in nature, in lineages that did not share a close common ancestor with eyes, so it just goes to show that it's a good solution given natural possibilities. Eyes can happen and once they do, they're excellent for survival in a huge majority of species that have them.

But the problem with evolution is that it works with what it's got. There's no revolutionary change in blueprints going on. If at some point blood vessels appeared in front of the optic nerve, they're there until some mutation happens that gives the animal an edge, thus permitting them to pass on that mutation to their offspring. Or a mutation that doesn't confer any advantage or disadvantage, but is randomly selected and passed on along because of other genes that animal has (piggy-backing with selected genes).

Another similar example is that of a nerve giraffes have that go from the chest to the head and back to the chest. Closely related antelopes have the same nerve, which goes from point A to point B actually quite close to eachother. In the case of the giraffe, the same nerve goes all the way to it's head just to go back down to it's chest again. It was there before they got longer necks, and it's part of the animal's evolutionary history. Thing is, it's totally pointless few meters extra nerves for its function.  

If we were to redesign giraffes, or the eye for instance, we would be taking the blueprint and changing it in accordance to what doesn't happen evolutionarily. Starting from scratch or totally ignoring parts of it's evolutionary history.  Removing or lessening the blood vessels in front of the optic nerve, or not making the nerve in the giraffe's neck go all the way round just to go from point A to point B, bypassing point C altogether.  
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Tank

Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 13, 2012, 11:35:41 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 13, 2012, 11:33:48 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 13, 2012, 11:26:08 PM
The blood vessels in the eye are in front of the optic nerve. That's like designing a camera with all the wiring in front of the lens. Very bad design!
Well, and I think I recall from my anatomy class that the optic nerve is crossed so that when the images come in to the brain, they are upside down, and then our brain has to flip them right side up.  Or something like that.  That's also a silly design.

Yet they work perfectly.  I have yet to see anyone come up with even a schematic of a "better" design.
Octopus eye. Very simple.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Guardian85

Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 13, 2012, 11:35:41 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 13, 2012, 11:33:48 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 13, 2012, 11:26:08 PM
The blood vessels in the eye are in front of the optic nerve. That's like designing a camera with all the wiring in front of the lens. Very bad design!
Well, and I think I recall from my anatomy class that the optic nerve is crossed so that when the images come in to the brain, they are upside down, and then our brain has to flip them right side up.  Or something like that.  That's also a silly design.

Yet they work perfectly.  I have yet to see anyone come up with even a schematic of a "better" design.

The only reason the human eye has a chance in hell of working is because we have evolved an entire section of the brain devoted to clarifying the image and correcting for the errors of the eye. With a better "designed" eye, we would have freed up a lot more brain capacity for other stuff.


"If scientist means 'not the dumbest motherfucker in the room,' I guess I'm a scientist, then."
-Unknown Smartass-

Tank

Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 13, 2012, 11:35:41 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 13, 2012, 11:33:48 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 13, 2012, 11:26:08 PM
The blood vessels in the eye are in front of the optic nerve. That's like designing a camera with all the wiring in front of the lens. Very bad design!
Well, and I think I recall from my anatomy class that the optic nerve is crossed so that when the images come in to the brain, they are upside down, and then our brain has to flip them right side up.  Or something like that.  That's also a silly design.

Yet they work perfectly.  I have yet to see anyone come up with even a schematic of a "better" design.
They do not work perfectly. If you don't believe this please ignore all the opticians and sunglasses you ever see. Our eyes work adaquatly to suit our evolved lifestyle. Go and live with the eskimos and discover what snow blindness is. Evolution never produces perfection, it produces pragmatic solutions to facilitate reproduction nothing more and nothing less.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

The Magic Pudding

Quote from: Tank on January 14, 2012, 12:12:34 PM
They do not work perfectly. If you don't believe this please ignore all the opticians and sunglasses you ever see. Our eyes work adaquatly to suit our evolved lifestyle. Go and live with the eskimos and discover what snow blindness is. Evolution never produces perfection, it produces pragmatic solutions to facilitate reproduction nothing more and nothing less.

God created an eye beauteous in its flaws.
You can't know what the sightless see.

And god created science,
and from his beneficence we have the eye surgeon.

The worthy may see again.
Praise the lord.

Tank

Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 13, 2012, 11:35:41 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 13, 2012, 11:33:48 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 13, 2012, 11:26:08 PM
The blood vessels in the eye are in front of the optic nerve. That's like designing a camera with all the wiring in front of the lens. Very bad design!
Well, and I think I recall from my anatomy class that the optic nerve is crossed so that when the images come in to the brain, they are upside down, and then our brain has to flip them right side up.  Or something like that.  That's also a silly design.

Yet they work perfectly.  I have yet to see anyone come up with even a schematic of a "better" design.

You have now.



Please choose A or B and explain your reasoning for the choice you made.
You chose which is the more reasonable arrangements of elements.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Davin

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 14, 2012, 03:23:15 AM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 13, 2012, 11:35:41 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 13, 2012, 11:33:48 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 13, 2012, 11:26:08 PM
The blood vessels in the eye are in front of the optic nerve. That's like designing a camera with all the wiring in front of the lens. Very bad design!
Well, and I think I recall from my anatomy class that the optic nerve is crossed so that when the images come in to the brain, they are upside down, and then our brain has to flip them right side up.  Or something like that.  That's also a silly design.

Yet they work perfectly.  I have yet to see anyone come up with even a schematic of a "better" design.

Eagle eyes are way better designed than ours.  8)
Our eyes work perfectly, eyes from other animals work even more perfectlier.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Asmodean

Quote from: Davin on January 16, 2012, 04:25:24 PM
Our eyes work perfectly, eyes from other animals work even more perfectlier.
No.  >:(
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Davin

Quote from: Asmodean on January 16, 2012, 04:27:48 PM
Quote from: Davin on January 16, 2012, 04:25:24 PM
Our eyes work perfectly, eyes from other animals work even more perfectlier.
No.  >:(
More prefectesterer?
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Asmodean

Quote from: Davin on January 16, 2012, 05:04:03 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on January 16, 2012, 04:27:48 PM
Quote from: Davin on January 16, 2012, 04:25:24 PM
Our eyes work perfectly, eyes from other animals work even more perfectlier.
No.  >:(
More prefectesterer?
Nono, what I meant was, an Asmo's eyes are imperfect. Require external lenses for optimal performance. SOME perfect instrument, that.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Crow

Also men can't perceive as many colours as some women. Some women have a forth cone cell receptor so they can perceive more colours, they are known as tetrachromats. Men have 3 types of cone receptor cells and 3 iodopsins (green, red, blue) but women that are tetrachromats have four cone receptors and 5 iodopsins (green, shifted green, red, shifted red, and blue). However it is rare and even though they are called tetrachromats they are not the same type of tetrachromats when the term is used for birds, insects or reptiles as they see an ultraviolet colour in addition.
Retired member.