Any Atheists Here Opposed to Abortion?

[Stevil]

This is harsh because I understand why a father would absolutely have a vested interest in the decision, but I don't think the father's opinion ultimately matters - it's not his body.

Would a father be justified in acting violently towards a mother whom is attempting to kill his baby?
I'm sure once the baby is born, most people would say yes.

What about when the baby is in the womb?
If the father believes abortion is murder then is he justified in violently protecting the life of his unborn child?

Legally, he probably is justified if the pregnancy is at 38 weeks and the mother is attempting an unlawful abortion.

But what about human nature wise even when it is legal to have abortion? Surely there must be some fathers that have tried to save the lives of their unborn babies. If they have, could you judge them as being a bad person for this act?

[Whitney]

I think the decision should be left to the woman who is pregnant under the guidance of her doctor.  Whomever is involved past that should also be her decision.

What about the father, does his opinion matter?

This is harsh because I understand why a father would absolutely have a vested interest in the decision, but I don't think the father's opinion ultimately matters - it's not his body.  He shouldn't be able to force a woman to go through a pregnancy against her will, and he shouldn't be able to force her to undergo a surgical procedure (abortion) against her will either.  Hopefully most couples can come to a consensus together, but in situations where they disagree and cannot come to a meeting of the minds, the woman wins because it's her body. 

^yup

Ideally the mother and father would be on the same page but, in a society where personal freedom is important, since he's not the one who is pregnant the decision can't ultimately be his until such a time that it is possible to remove the fetus from the mother (in a way that is no more invasive than the abortion alternative) and place it in a pod for continued development.  And even at that point it would then potentially be an issue for the courts, much like custody battles over children...because perhaps the woman wants to abort to prevent suffering of the fetus as it will be born with something bad yet the father disagrees because he could pray the disease out of it or something stupid like that.

[Whitney]

Surely there must be some fathers that have tried to save the lives of their unborn babies. If they have, could you judge them as being a bad person for this act?

Yes, being violent towards a pregnant woman is the same as being violent towards the developing baby; everything that happens to her gets relayed to the fetus via hormones.  So if the father actually did believe that the developing cells were the same as a full baby then he shouldn't be violent towards the mother either physically or verbally.  It would also make him a bad person since the only way to make the woman have the baby would be to lock her away for the remainder of the pregnancy...kidnapping is bad. 

Men who know they'd feel that way if a woman became pregnant on accident need to either abstain from sex, make sure multiple forms of protection are being used, or find a partner who feels the same way so that abortion wouldn't be up for consideration if accidental pregnancy did occur.  The same goes for women since it's also not a good idea to end up pregnant with a man who wants the baby when you don't.

[Stevil]

Yes, being violent towards a pregnant woman is the same as being violent towards the developing baby; everything that happens to her gets relayed to the fetus via hormones.  So if the father actually did believe that the developing cells were the same as a full baby then he shouldn't be violent towards the mother either physically or verbally.  It would also make him a bad person since the only way to make the woman have the baby would be to lock her away for the remainder of the pregnancy...kidnapping is bad. 

But, by law, I think people are allowed to apply degrees of violence towards a person committing a crime.
In the case that a woman is 38 weeks pregnant and is going to have an illegal abortion, I would guess that a person could attempt to physically stop her, e.g. hold her against her will, then call the police for further assistance.
Kidnapping is less severe than murder and could possibly be seen as justified given the situation.

[Sweetdeath]

Ultimately the decision is up to the woman. I'm sorry. :\

[Harmonie]

I'm pro-life. It's an issue that I have looked into and seen many arguments for, but I have never been persuaded to the pro-choice side. It's just not that clear-cut of an issue to me. I do make exceptions for those who have been raped or are at great risk of losing their life if they delivered the baby, however I just can't get over the fact that I consider that fetus a life and I am against killing of all kinds.

[Whitney]

Yes, being violent towards a pregnant woman is the same as being violent towards the developing baby; everything that happens to her gets relayed to the fetus via hormones.  So if the father actually did believe that the developing cells were the same as a full baby then he shouldn't be violent towards the mother either physically or verbally.  It would also make him a bad person since the only way to make the woman have the baby would be to lock her away for the remainder of the pregnancy...kidnapping is bad. 

But, by law, I think people are allowed to apply degrees of violence towards a person committing a crime.
In the case that a woman is 38 weeks pregnant and is going to have an illegal abortion, I would guess that a person could attempt to physically stop her, e.g. hold her against her will, then call the police for further assistance.
Kidnapping is less severe than murder and could possibly be seen as justified given the situation.

last I checked, thought crimes aren't illegal so he'd have no basis to restrain her just for her indicating she wanted a late term abortion.  And if she planned to go have it done somewhere that does allow late term then it wouldn't be a crime at all anyway.  Citizens are only allowed to take physical action when doing so can prevent immediate harm (like if you don't' act that second someone will be harmed or dead in moments) and even then such action can be illegal in some cases and areas (it's not legal everywhere to, for example, shoot to kill an intruder in your home).

The only thing he could do is inform the police and follow her so he could provide the location of the illegal clinic.

Anyway, my previous comment wasn't directed at late term abortions because I didn't catch that is what you were referring to...

[Sweetdeath]

I'm pro-life. It's an issue that I have looked into and seen many arguments for, but I have never been persuaded to the pro-choice side. It's just not that clear-cut of an issue to me. I do make exceptions for those who have been raped or are at great risk of losing their life if they delivered the baby, however I just can't get over the fact that I consider that fetus a life and I am against killing of all kinds.

So are you also against birth control? Or pre marital sex?

[Stevil]

Anyway, my previous comment wasn't directed at late term abortions because I didn't catch that is what you were referring to...

It is always murky, especially when we try to arbitrarily apply a cut off point, 20 weeks, 22 weeks, 30 weeks, after birth...
The law is one thing, but law isn't always justified. If we try to think outside of law, as if we were the potential law makers, then I think we can start to see some of the dilemmas that law makers have. Law is imposing your will on other people, on grown-ups, telling them that their government knows best and is making decisions for them rather than letting them make their own decisions.

Personally, I am for people making their own decisions especially when society will not become unstable, therefore it is not of the government's concern.
So I am thinking about what conflict can arise. The mother/father conflict is an issue, I understand why ultimately the mother has most of the say, but I can also understand a father becoming emotional and violent in this situation.
Yes, I think he would have time to notify police as abortions don't happen quickly, but I don't know if police would get there in time and if not whether the father would be justified (legally or human nature wise) in acting to save the life of his unborn baby.

[Asmodean]

I consider that fetus a life and I am against killing of all kinds.

A vegan, are you..? 50 years of beef is better than 100 years of carrots, if you ask me.

[Sweetdeath]

I consider that fetus a life and I am against killing of all kinds.

A vegan, are you..? 50 years of beef is better than 100 years of carrots, if you ask me.

I was also going to ask if she's ever swatted a bug dead. I've killed plenty of insects to  protect my home/bedroom.
I am eatng chicken right now.


Saying you have never killed before is not possible.

[Stevil]

I consider that fetus a life and I am against killing of all kinds.

A vegan, are you..? 50 years of beef is better than 100 years of carrots, if you ask me.

LOL,

Carrots are alive, they get killed so that people may feed. Nobody cares about the poor carrots.
Oh well, moving on.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

The line should be drawn at viability since at that point the baby could just be removed alive instead of aborted.

So you are against late-term abortions, assuming the fetus is viable?  

Generally, the decision should be the woman's. She is a more competent moral agent than the government or anyone else, since she alone truly knows the circumstances of that particular pregnancy.  I still struggle with this concept, however, in the context of late-term abortions, when the fetus is ready to live on its own. It's like it has finished its school work and all that is left is to walk across the stage and get the diploma. To deny it the diploma seems unjust and cruel in those circumstances, whatever the reason the school (alma mater) can come up with. Abortion at that point seems, well, horrible.  But the woman's autonomy as a moral agent is crucial, so I'm still torn. I'm interested in hearing other peoples' views and think conversations like this one are valuable.

[DeterminedJuliet]

Yes, being violent towards a pregnant woman is the same as being violent towards the developing baby; everything that happens to her gets relayed to the fetus via hormones.  So if the father actually did believe that the developing cells were the same as a full baby then he shouldn't be violent towards the mother either physically or verbally.  It would also make him a bad person since the only way to make the woman have the baby would be to lock her away for the remainder of the pregnancy...kidnapping is bad. 

But, by law, I think people are allowed to apply degrees of violence towards a person committing a crime.
In the case that a woman is 38 weeks pregnant and is going to have an illegal abortion, I would guess that a person could attempt to physically stop her, e.g. hold her against her will, then call the police for further assistance.
Kidnapping is less severe than murder and could possibly be seen as justified given the situation.

Where does it end, though? Does the husband have a right to lock her in a room if she smokes because that might endanger the baby? What if she drinks caffiene/alcohol/eats junk food? I hate to be pragmatic about it, but as some point you have to acknowledge that a mother is almost always "more" of a person than an un-born baby and should, proportionally, have more rights.

[Sweetdeath]

Yes, being violent towards a pregnant woman is the same as being violent towards the developing baby; everything that happens to her gets relayed to the fetus via hormones.  So if the father actually did believe that the developing cells were the same as a full baby then he shouldn't be violent towards the mother either physically or verbally.  It would also make him a bad person since the only way to make the woman have the baby would be to lock her away for the remainder of the pregnancy...kidnapping is bad. 

But, by law, I think people are allowed to apply degrees of violence towards a person committing a crime.
In the case that a woman is 38 weeks pregnant and is going to have an illegal abortion, I would guess that a person could attempt to physically stop her, e.g. hold her against her will, then call the police for further assistance.
Kidnapping is less severe than murder and could possibly be seen as justified given the situation.

Where does it end, though? Does the husband have a right to lock her in a room if she smokes because that might endanger the baby? What if she drinks caffiene/alcohol/eats junk food? I hate to be pragmatic about it, but as some point you have to acknowledge that a mother is almost always "more" of a person than an un-born baby and should, proportionally, have more rights.

Thank you, DJ.
Seriously, to me  an  adult woman is more important than any unborn fetus.