News:

There is also the shroud of turin, which verifies Jesus in a new way than other evidences.

Main Menu

Happy Atheists, I need help being happy with death

Started by Im_Freaking_OUT, December 25, 2010, 01:10:06 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

ragarth

Quote from: "februarystars"
Quote from: "ragarth"I don't think anyone but the deluded ever 'get over' the fact that they're going to die.

I really disagree. I don't think I'm deluded, and I'm already way over the fact that I'm going to die. I'd rather not die right now, but if I did, it's not like I would look back and regret all the things I didn't finish or accomplish, or miss my friends and family. I think people who fear death don't actually fear death itself but what comes after death. Many people fear the judgement that will affect their eternal souls, and many fear the uncertainty of what exactly happens after the body dies. I firmly believe that when the body dies, the consciousness dies, and there's nothing that suggests to me that anything to the contrary could possibly happen. I'm very comfortable with this.

:D

Seriously though, it's not the dying itself that scares people, it's the enforced nonexistence of it. Your argument makes it seem like only theists fear death, which is utterly untrue. I'm an atheist, I'm completely comfortable with materialist explanations and not having a big sky daddy, but I fear death. I don't want to cease thinking, to cease existing against my will. I want control over when and how I become worm-food or whatever state of cognitive mutation I choose to substitute for death. Some argue that because we didn't exist previously, the fact that we'll cease to exist later is okay. I disagree, just because a previous state existed does not mean it's okay to reenter that previous state. I am conscious now, I can contemplate my nonexistence, that makes any future nonexistence different in my mind than any previous nonexistence.

Given your descriptions as to why people fear death do not apply to me (they're dualistic, not materialistic in nature), I really don't have much to attack in your post. Quite simply, materialism provides no comfort to those who have a fear death. It doesn't comfort me, and so instead of ignoring the issue I work to eliminate that which I fear.

Wilson

Here's something that may help a little.  I find that when I worry about something - money, relationships, mistakes at work, etc. - at first I can't sleep and can't imagine ever coming out of the blues unless the situation changes.  And then the situation doesn't change right away, but magically the fears become less important, and a few days later I've accepted the facts, and while there may still be a little bit of anxiety over the problem, it's no longer a big deal.  I suspect the same is true about the concept of death.  Don't avoid thinking about it, because it'll just fester; talk with yourself or other people until you've examined the implications honestly.  The unknown really is scarier than the reality, in most cases.  Get familiar with thinking calmly about death and maybe the fears will gradually subside.

And I agree that most people never really get over the fear of death.  It's in our DNA.  But for me and a lot of others it's a pretty minor worry, not an obsession, easily dealt with.

februarystars

Quote from: "ragarth":D First thing that came to mind when reading your post is totally inappropriate and doesn't apply to you, since it applies to a different form of delusion than what we're talking about, but it's funny enough that I gotta say it: "Do the deluded ever really think they are?" This is wrong on multiple levels, but I thought it was amusing. :raised:

I don't know if there is a point to all this rambling, other than I just wanted to say that I don't think it's fair to say that anyone who claims they don't fear death is just pretending, when there are as many different concepts of human existence as there are humans living in the world.

Edit: BTW, thank you for going back and explaining your point of view a little more in depth. And just take my arguments with a grain of salt. I will never imply that you are wrong in what you think, I just want to present a different point of view than your own, because I really find it fascinating the way every person can interpret something a completely different way.  :)
Mulder: He put the whammy on him.
Scully: Please explain to me the scientific nature of "the whammy."

Will37

Quote from: Im_Freaking_OUT on December 25, 2010, 01:10:06 PM
I don't know where to post this, I'm looking for some calming opinions and words so I figured philosophy is the best bet. A lot of forums can get touchy about posts not being in the correct section, so I apologise if this isn't in the section you would prefer it to be in (if any).

Erm, well, I'm 21 years old, I was born November 29th, so I have been 21 for a little less than a month.

I'm an Agnostic, I have declared myself a Christian when I was a kid, and then after I declared myself an Atheist in my teens, but since my late teens I pretty much felt like an Agnostic, I personally don't know if there is a god or not, the only things that I'm pretty sure about, are:
1, That this god is nothing that we know about.
2, And that an after life is completely inconceivable.

I think I will be blunt, the thought of death freaks me out, and has given me many a sleepless night over the past two months.
The thought of myself not existing in 5 billion years from now, whatever becomes of the earth and the human race, the thought of me not existing whilst whatever is going on freaks me out, and the concept of eternity scares me too.
I know death is natural, and our only certainty, and I know you can't experience death, because I think the mind dies with the body, but at the same time, its knowing that I will one day be like that is what freaks me out, and knowing that there is an eternity afterwards which is what freaks me out a lot, I believe its called "Apeirophobia" (fear of eternity, not of death).

I'm not looking for sympathy or looking for everybody to be nice to me and treat me like some kid who is sensitive or anything, and if I come across that way then I apologise because that's not what I am trying to do, I'm just trying to explain why I am freaked out by death
I posted something similar to this, probably a shorter version, on Yahoo! Answers, and I got treat with a lot of hostility, when I was just looking for peoples opinions and philosophy about death, and how so many Atheists and Agnostics death with that thought of death, and how it doesn't bother them.
Because, to me it seems like a bad fate, to be in oblivion, and its like being a Christian and knowing you will go to hell, and you can get on with your life, but its always at the back of my mind, telling me that I will one day die and its all over, and it puts this weird feeling in my stomach, and scares me to be honest, and its always in my mind, so as long as I never stop doing something that takes my mind off it, which is too expensive, then I will always be laying there in bed every night, staring at the ceiling, with my stomach churning over something that can happen at any time, and will happen at some point in my life, and it will be the end.
I have told myself there is nothing I can do about and and I should just live my life and enjoy, but it still wont go away, I have spoken to councillors and they tell me the same thing, they are no more qualified to help me than anybody.

I thought I would try this place because, by the title of the place I assume that this place has a pretty positive vibe and might be able to just say something that I can learn from and realize that might make me chill out a bit when it comes to death.
I know a lot of Atheists are comfortable with their fate, and  was wandering what makes you some comfortable, and what you can tell me, if anything that might change my world view, and might help me forget about death, or make me accept it?
I just want to go back to normal again, before this all started a few months ago, I just don't want to live with this fear that lurks on my shoulder like it has been doing since late September.

Thanks, if you think that something I wrote was wrong, or if there is anything here that you feel the need to confront me over, please don't just mention it and I will explain once I am less tired tomorrow morning.

Thanks again.

I used to fear death a lot.  The I started reading Wittgenstein in high school.  A bit after that, once I lost my faith, I really got what he meant by asserting, "death is not an event in life".  Death is not an event in life.  You never experience death.  You are alive until you are not.  And once you are not alive nothing matter, including death.

Made me feel better. 

'Out of a great number of suppositions, shrewd in their own way, one in particular emerged at last (one feels strange even mentioning it): whether Chichikov were not Napoleon in disguise'
Nikolai Gogol--> Dead Souls

'Коба, зачем тебе нужна моя смерть?'
Николай Иванович Бухарин-->Letter to Stalin

'Death is not an event in life: we do not live to exp

DeterminedJuliet

This might sound strange, but do you know what makes me feel better about death? Thinking about all of the other people who are dead.

Gandhi, Groucho Marx, Einstein, Anne Frank, Plato, Bob Marley and countless other people. If death (and whatever happens after it) is good enough for them, then who am I to be upset by it? People have been dying since the moment they existed. Death is everywhere. I try to think of the commonality that we have in it, and I find it less scary. We all die alone, but everyone we know will die, so it makes it seem less lonely to me.
"We've thought of life by analogy with a journey, with pilgrimage which had a serious purpose at the end, and the THING was to get to that end; success, or whatever it is, or maybe heaven after you're dead. But, we missed the point the whole way along; It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing, or dance, while the music was being played.

palebluedot

#35
Look,  when you fell asleep last night did it hurt?  Did you suffer torment after you fell asleep?  Were you aware that you were no longer conscious?  Were you aware, at 4.00am that it 3 hours time you would be conscious again?

No.

Dying is only ceasing to be conscious for the final time.

Why worry about not being here for the billions of years to come?

Was it so scary not being here for most of the last 13.74 billion years?

Fear of death is only for those who have God's "loving pastoral care".   The fear that you have been taught to have only serves to keep you in the cult - its classic mind-control.

When you can see your life in the context of the bigger picture, you realise that there is nothing to fear, especially as you are not that special - it comes to all of us.

But don't imagine that this means life is worthless - quite the contrary.   You have every right to be here, no less than anyone who ever lived.  The unimaginably small chance that you were born you, and you have this one chance to enjoy consciousness and to witness a small part of the universe should fill you with enough wonder and excitement to make the most of your life - starting today!



Crow

What is the cause of your fear? as you said it has mainly been happening for the last two months, before that you didn't have this fear (or not so bad). Has there been an event in your life that has triggered this fear? Perhaps a way to overcome this is to try and look at where this thought started. Try not to look at this as something that will go away overnight and death may be something that you always fear but can manage.

It seems to me that you can't switch of when going to sleep and once the thought gets into your head it repeats and repeats, this is something I use to suffer from (still do time to time) but was usually work related. Start looking at ways to create a sleeping pattern that relaxes your mind and body a few hours before you go to sleep to help your brain not be so active. From my point of view it seems that your suffering from a mixture of sleep anxiety and your fear which are creating an endless cycle and therefore impacting on your daily life.

As others have said there is no such thing as "one shot in life" try reading the book 'Shantaram' by Gregory David Roberts, the book is basically about how a persons life goes to shit then manage to make something out of it again. Life is what you make it, not what other perceive how you should live. Don't live by others or the media standards of what makes you a success that will just bring you unhappiness, check out this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CP6L5S14ygY that highlights the bullshit that media forces down your throat.
Retired member.

Medusa

You shouldn't be happy with death. You should be fucking pissed. At some point the ride is over. But don't waste your time on it being a debbie downer. You don't get to do this again.
She has the blood of reptile....just underneath her skin...

Wilson

We evolved to fear death.  Fear of death keeps us from doing ridiculously dangerous things; it was essential that our species fears death.  We can't completely talk ourselves out of that fear; it's emotional, not rational.  There are things we can do to ease the fear.  Talking about death and getting familiar with the idea as a part of what life on Earth is may help some, as compared with letting your fears run wild and unexamined.  For most of us the unknown is scarier than facing the truth. 

Now some of us have much greater fear of death than others.  Some on this forum say that they don't fear death because it's just like permanent sleeping.  May be true for them, more likely sort of true, perhaps they're just whistling in the dark.  There's something about the concept of nonexistence that is creepy and depressing for almost all of us.  Me, I hardly ever think about death, but when I do, there's a little anxiety - but not much.  Luckier than some, I guess.  If you aren't a believer, at least you don't have to worry about eternal torment.

The Magic Pudding

None of the consolations are very convincing, the ability not dwell on it too much is a useful life skill.
Death to a twenty five year is likely to be different than what it is to a ninety five year old, eventually you may welcome it or the loss of life may not seem such a great loss.  The thought of a ninety five year old with knees knocking in fear is kind of pathetic.

Squid

I much like the Zen/Taoist view of something like this:

QuoteZen student says, "So, master, is the soul immortal or not? Do we survive our bodily death or do we get annihilated? Do we really reincarnate? Does our soul split up into component parts which get recycled, or do we as a single unit enter the body of a biological organism? And do we retain our memories or not? Or is the doctrine of reincarnation false? Is perhaps the Christian notion of survival more correct? And if so, do we get bodily resurrected, or does our soul enter a purely Platonic spiritual realm?

Zen master responds, "Your breakfast is getting cold". (Smullyan, 1977)

Smullyan, R. (1977). The Tao is Silent.  Harper Collins: New York, NY.

palebluedot

#41
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on July 16, 2011, 02:09:37 AM
None of the consolations are very convincing...........

In your humble opinion?   What does the person to whom they were directed think?

The Magic Pudding

Quote from: palebluedot on July 16, 2011, 01:56:44 PM
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on July 16, 2011, 02:09:37 AM
None of the consolations are very convincing...........

In your humble opinion?   What does the person to whom they were directed think?

I think anyone reading this would see this as my opinion, opinions are all that's on offer here I think. "Im_Freaking_OUT" doesn't seem to be about any more.
Sometimes I have a humble opinion, perhaps if I suggest the US should build a space telescope I'd be humble.
Sometimes my opinion is strident, here I think it is resigned.

CHI83

I am probably too young to answer this but ill give it a go. If I were you I wouldn't worry about death because i would be busy living. When I get to the point of being close to death I wouldn't mind as long as Im satisfied with my life and I did all that I could with it.

xSilverPhinx

Not to state the obvious here, but death is a part of life, things naturally end. The worst part is when they do prematurely, as if the case with other things.

It's pointless to let your existential angst get in the way of you living your life, though I know that's easier said then done.
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey