Still in the Closet

[roadrunner]

Im still in the closet. I dont think I'll ever be the Hitchens or Harris of Atheism since its sucjh a taboo right now in society but I do have the personality for it. But I feel like I cant be myself. I would describe myself as an intellectual. I know a lot about a lot of things and wish to know more because I've always thought that the more you know, the more you can learn about yourself that would make you a better person along the way. I am intrigued by social sciences and cosmology/astronomy. 

I just need a place to vent. I've built a world around Christianity and if I come out I am scared I'll lose it all. I've got a wife and kids who I've dedicated to the church. My wife is devout and old school fundamentalist. I havent been here for the years fo the same reason so many others wont and never will, its wrong to doubt. Doubt is a sin.Its wrong to question god. I agree with the moral aspect of the teachings (not OT stuff) but the rational law. I dont like writing checks every week to the church. I've been approached by my wife as not reading the bible to our kids. Its because I cant in good faith lead them stray. I also would hate to die and be wrong. though Im 99.9999999% sure Im right. thats a chance I'll take. but Id hate to FORCE my kids to believe what i believe and be wrong. I am probably agnostic (i dont know what I am but its not christian). I dont know where we came from but I think religion is WAAAAY off.  I think atheism (there is no god and thats that) is the same rigid, stick in the mud, close minded mentality that I hated about christianity. So I am reluctant to use atheist to describe myself. I cant believe Im writing this. Just needed to vent know that there is a guy out there who sits in church every sunday watching people be moved by their own deep emotion and feel guilty.

The one thing I do admit when I look around at all the old people at church out there, is they have hope. hope that they will one day see each other again, the rapist will pay for his crime, babies are in gods arms, they are not alone. I look out there and I see that and think, WOW. they would be devestated if they took off their glasses for 2 seconds. i also dont want them to cry for me becuase I understand more how it all works. I know this is all over the place but there is so much i needed to say and forums arent exactly

[Whitney]

Welcome to HAF.  I'm sure that we have quite a few members here in similar situations.

Btw, an atheist is someone who doesn't believe in god; not necessarily someone who claims to know one can't possibly exist...philosophically that's a very important distinction.

[Stevil]

You are in a sticky dilemma. You certainly don't need to force your kids down any particular path.
Atheism does not require teaching or force. The problem is with young children, that they are so trusting, they will believe everything you tell them.

If you tell them that god does exist and that he is described in the Christian bible and that he had a son called Jesus, then they will believe you.
If you tell them that god does exist and that he is described in the Qu'ran and that he had a prophet named Mohammad, then they will believe you.
If you tell them that gods do exist and that they are described in Vedas and that the supreme Brahman combined with Shiva and Vishnu are the three aspects of the supreme god, then they will believe you.
If you tell them that there are no gods then they will believe you.

But as the saying goes "give a man a fish and he will eat today, teach him to fish and he will eat for the rest of his life", so it might be better that you explain that many people from all over the world believe in different gods or no god at all. That there is no evidence either way and that no religion can be proven to be more right than others. It comes down to personal choice hence they should be respectful of people with different beliefs.

[Recusant]

Hello and welcome to HAF, roadrunner. The life you have doesn't sound terrible (wife and kids you love), and it also sounds like you can hold up your end. At least you aren't a Christian minister who doesn't believe in the god whose gospel he preaches. I'm glad you found a place to let down your hair! You might consider using the "private browsing" feature of your browser when you visit, just as a precaution.  

I honestly don't blame you for living in the closet as you do. If your wife isn't the understanding sort, and is a particularly unbending fundamentalist, coming out could have results ranging from rather unpleasant to disastrous for your family. It's sad that you don't think you can trust her to reconcile herself to your views on religion. As for your kids, well, along with bringing them up Christian, there's no reason you can't also try to help them to learn to think for themselves. After all, the two aren't absolutely mutually exclusive, even if some Christians seem to believe they are.

I imagine some will advocate honesty as the best policy (and I generally agree), but you know your situation better than any of us, and I'm willing to accept that you know what you're talking about.

Notes for new members from Tank:

The Rules.

Users who comply with forum rules will graduate to full membership after 10 posts. Till that time your ability to post is limited to the "Getting to Know You" section of the forum. It is our hope that this small restriction improves the overall atmosphere of HAF.

Some threads you might find interesting.
Where did you get your username from?
10 Things About Yourself
Tell us A Bit About Where You're From
Photography
Non-religious pet peeves
Pets...what do you have?
How to tell your family you are an atheist.*

*You will need 10 posts before you can add a post to this thread, but you can read it at any time.

In addition, you may find the following of interest: "Rules for Conducting a Discussion" by Dr. Mortimer J. Adler.

I hope you enjoy your time reading and posting here!

[xSilverPhinx]

Welcome!

[Crow]

Hi Roadrunner and welcome,

I honestly can't say anything better than what Whitney, Stevil and Recusant said so wont try and give any half arsed opinion on what you may be able to do as I have absolutely no experience with anything like the situation you have described. I hope the forum will be a place you can express your feelings which you have needed to bottle up so far and look forward to reading your input into the various discussions.

At least you aren't a a Christian minister who doesn't believe in the god whose gospel he preaches.

The basis of that article needs to be made into a TV series and I would certainly watch it. There are so many unique storylines/arcs and emotions it can play with. Somebody pitch it to HBO or AMC. Though if it was about a priest (or whatever) trying to find god again that would be boring. It should be about seeing the world through new eyes, the facade they need to wear, how it slowly beings to get pulled away and the interaction of people when it does.

[Amicale]

Hi, Roadrunner, and welcome!

I'm glad you found HAF. In the short time I've been here, I've really appreciated the community. For someone like yourself who's very much interwoven into a Christian community, having something else to read online and people to speak with may just go a long way towards helping keep you sane.

You may still be in the closet, but that's OK, you can always think of this forum as the "secular Narnia" buried deep in the back of that closet. *grin* A different world to explore, for sure!

[Firebird]

Welcome roadrunner!
Hopefully you'll find we're a little more open-minded than you think. Many of us (like myself) don't claim to know for absolutely sure that there is no god. We're just very, very convinced I echo Recusant in saying you should use the privacy setting on your browser. Ctrl+shift+p should do it

[pytheas]

hi there, family man who hit the streets

I recommend you do not dwell so much in what you are Not, like not christian, not athesit etc.
but instead focus on what you are

human
thinking
emotional

single out the value of reasoning, in correspondant cause and effect, that is,  what I think caused something another person can witness.
See how hope and blind faith is an emergency mode for when you hit a wall that cannot be bypassed. An emegrency mode for when reason is useless

it boils down to the egoist fear feeling of impending self-discontinuity, known as death.
Apart from this single constructed (false) case
every other anguish depends on earthly variables and human characteristics, love, justice, equality, security, sufficience
that need humans to get together in a sincere direct way, without "divine representatives" to dictate questionable morality and without "god" to provide a comfort label for the great unknown and uncertain.

I hope you exit the closet and use it as firewood, attracting friends in loving company by your fire

[Tank]

Hello Roadrunner

The thing that comes over from your introduction is that you appear to be in a state of turmoil over your own world view and your responsibilities to your family. Not a good place to be, you have my sympathies and please feel free to use the forum as a place to vent and relieve a little of your frustrations.

It is my experience that what Christians understand of atheism is not what atheists think of atheism, so first things first, forget what you have been told about atheism by your fellow Christians. The first thing to understand about people who identify themselves as atheists is that there are two general groupings and all kinds of caveats around them. The two main groupings are often refered to as 'weak' and 'strong'. A weak atheist does not dismiss the miniscule possibility that a god of some kind could exist. The view is based on the impossibility of proving a negative; one can never prove that a god could not exist. Be aware this is a deistic god, a non-interventionist creator if you like. The weak view is also related to the lack of objective evidence that a god exists. The strong atheist goes further and believes that this lack of evidence is so great that there is no possibility that a god of any type exists. About 75% of atheists are 'weak' and 25% 'strong' with reference to an as yet unidentified deistic god.

When it comes to an interventionist theistic God(s) e.g. Allah, the picture becomes more problematic. When it comes to a theist God then I would say the vast majority (98%+) of atheist are 'strong' in that they actively deny the existence of such an entity.

Thanks for making the effort to sign up and join in I hope the discussions you have here will be helpful and interesting.

Welcome to HAF.

Regards
Chris

[roadrunner]

Tank, I think that I'm more in aa panic now. My wife Im sure would eventually understand. She is a smart person, she sees some of the flaws in christianity but sweeps them under the rug. Im not sweeping anymore. As for my kids, my daughter is 3 and very smart she doesnt understand about how some one can be watching her that she cant see.

[Tank]

Tank, I think that I'm more in aa panic now. My wife Im sure would eventually understand. She is a smart person, she sees some of the flaws in christianity but sweeps them under the rug. Im not sweeping anymore. As for my kids, my daughter is 3 and very smart she doesnt understand about how some one can be watching her that she cant see.

Well that all sounds good. My wife and I have always been atheists although my mum dragged me to church and my wife attended a Christian school so we were both inoculated rather than indoctrinated. I have three grown up children and one recent grand child who still lacks bladder and bowel control!  

Institutionalised superstitions (religions) have always required the skeptical/cynical to keep their mouths shut to survive. Good to see you're making a difference, however localised it may be.

[Crocoduck]

Hello roadrunner and welcome to HAF
I'm happy you joined up and shared your story. Hopefully you'll find this a helpful place.

[roadrunner]

sorry for continuing on the subject but one of the reasons I think Im nervous about it all is that my wife and I built everything around god thinking it was the right thing to do, we bought a house close to church, had kids who we later dedicated to the church and I feel like Im bailing out on the plan...even if it was lame. Its almost like betrayal. but my wife is very smart and if she dared to remove her glasses shed agree. too many tough questions and to make christianity work you have to bend it further and further to make sense of life as we know it with dinosaurs, old earth, star formation, etc. Its like you are building your testimony for denying what the evidence is telling you. I have friends that post daily "Faith is believing wwhen everything is telling you not to." I want to scream so bad. "NO THATS STUPIDITY" we sweep it under the rug to build this lie and keep this thing going. You guys dont worry im not in a state of turmoil or anything because Ive stragled further and further from where i used to be. not reading bible prayers are short, monotonous, vain repititions

When I was a believer some of the shallowest reasons that I heard were turning people from the faith are actually good questions. They mainly question the consistency of gods character and pick it apart from there when on a personal level I mainly questioned his existence. Personally I never understood people who were bitter toward god or devil worshiping in resentment. Thats silly to resent a fictitious being. Its like hating santa for not giving you presents. I have come to the conclusion that based on how big the cosmos is and how tiny we are and what we know now abnout how it all works, its insane to think that people 3000 years ago who thought a FLAT earth was the center of the universe got it right.

My hope is that someone will see my posts and quit lying to themselves. Im sure there are millions out there trying to gain favor of the community and look good by swimming against reality. I talk a good game online but I'll be in church sunday against my will. I'll check back in later.

[Stevil]

Be funny if your wife is thinking the same thing, holding back her disbelief in case you will be disappointed in her.