I'm being brave..

[Heretical Rants]

Yes. If I am to believe that God is to blame for both good and bad things, then I have to believe He put the bad things there so that I could learn the good things. (There are many BAD situations that I haven't had to go through, and my opinion isn't meant to negate them.)

Certainly an omnipotent god could devise a less-cruel method of education.  Unless he didn't want to.

...perhaps this actually is the best possible way of life, though.

We can hypothesise about better worlds, but we can't actually test them and see if they're better.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Yes. If I am to believe that God is to blame for both good and bad things, then I have to believe He put the bad things there so that I could learn the good things. (There are many BAD situations that I haven't had to go through, and my opinion isn't meant to negate them.)

Certainly an omnipotent god could devise a less-cruel method of education.  Unless he didn't want to.

...perhaps this actually is the best possible way of life, though.

We can hypothesise about better worlds, but we can't actually test them and see if they're better.

This is entirely possible, but it undercuts the possibility of an omnipotent god.

[Heretical Rants]

This is entirely possible, but it undercuts the possibility of an omnipotent god.

I don't see how...

[Being_Brave]

Being Brave:

You asked how atheists deal with disasters when they have no one to blame. I can only speak for one atheist, of course.

I believe we are party crashers. We weren't invited to this crazy party called the universe, and yet here we are. The universe went along just swimmingly for 13.7 billion years before we showed up, with our crazy ideas of morality and justice and fairness. But it is just those ideas, which we created for ourselves, that make us special, that make our lives worth living.

The world is unfair. Death is stupid. Ridiculous things happen for absolutely no "reason" at all. What we have is each other, fellow moral agents in this sea of unreason.

When we try to find meaning and reason and purpose in the world, it is a misfiring. Reason and meaning and purpose do exist - they exist in our fellow human beings. That's where these searches are properly directed, not at the hurricane or the disease or the horror of predation.

If a human had designed the system of the universe, we would consider that person incompetent at best, a psychopath at worst. A thousand sea turtles scramble down the beach. Nine hundred ninety-nine will die before they ever grow up. Asteroids fly about willy-nilly. Every once in a while, one smashes into a planet, spreading horrors. Nearby stars go supernova and flood surrounding solar systems with deadly gamma rays, killing every single thing in their path. This is the best God could do?

Instead, atheists (OK, I) look out at the universe and accept the evidence I see. The universe looks completely unplanned. Let's live our lives as if that is true. We are lucky, amazingly lucky, to be here at all. There's no one out there to take care of us. So what do we do? Huddle in a corner and wait for the inevitable end? NO! We (humanity) take care of ourselves.

That's how I see things. So far, so good.

Wow, that's the first time anyone has taken the time to explain it like that. Thank you!!

[Being_Brave]

BB

I feel that the human animal has evolved to see cause and infer effect. It's a hugely advantageous survival trait. I see a predator, it will eat me unless I do xyz, I see a prey animal, if I go this way it will go that way so if I go the other way I'll get to catch it. Note: to do the latter (the prey case) we have to imagine what the prey animal will do, we imagine the effect. Now, given we automatically process cause to effect we also do the reverse predict cause from effect. When we can't predict cause from effect we get stressed. Think about it yourself. You come home and there is post on the floor, one immediately sees the unexpected item (the post on the floor) and know that the post was delivered while you were out. Now think what you would do if you came in and there was a brick on the floor, far too big to get through the letter box. Think how confused and frustrated you would be, you may even be concerned and worried. What you have been faced with is knowledge (there is a brick on the floor) without understanding (why is there a brick on the floor), this dichotomy is really stressful, I would contend intolerably so.

Imagine you are a human ancestor on the cusp of becoming aware of abstract concerns 'Why does the Sun rise?' I contend that the creature that could dismiss this concern or through imagination substitute a cause would suffer less stress and thus have a better survival potential. I think superstition was a seriously important positive survival trait that helped humans get through the period where they had knowledge but not understanding. We now know more than we ever have and in a lot (most) cases we know enough to understand what is really happening thus when the Sun rises we know it's because we are on a large round rock orbiting 92 million miles from a huge round globe of fissionable gas. Thus the dichotomy our ancestors faced is less of a problem for us, but we still have our evolved propensity to defensive superstition and anthropomorphism thus we now have institutionalised superstition and we call it religion.  

Does this make any sense?

Regards
Chris

Yes, it does make sense. Thank you

My next question then, is about the universal superstitions that humans have. The way I understand it civilizations from the beginning have always had a "higher power" of some kind. Religious folk will say it's because there is a natural "calling" to know God. Similarly, civilizations have always had irrational (or rational..whatever) fears of things like snakes, darkness, death, angering the gods, etc. Am I just lumping religion in with the other superstitions or does that make sense? I mean, we can see snakes, darkness, and die, but they used to think we could hear gods (thunder, wind) and see them (storms, lightening)...so would it be the same?

I used to work with an athiest who got livid if a broom crossed her feet because it was "bad luck", and was afraid of black cats. That makes me think (but I'm not sure so I'm going to ask) that some atheists do buy into some superstitions, is that right?

[Tank]

My next question then, is about the universal superstitions that humans have. The way I understand it civilizations from the beginning have always had a "higher power" of some kind. Religious folk will say it's because there is a natural "calling" to know God. Similarly, civilizations have always had irrational (or rational..whatever) fears of things like snakes, darkness, death, angering the gods, etc. Am I just lumping religion in with the other superstitions or does that make sense? I mean, we can see snakes, darkness, and die, but they used to think we could hear gods (thunder, wind) and see them (storms, lightening)...so would it be the same?

I used to work with an athiest who got livid if a broom crossed her feet because it was "bad luck", and was afraid of black cats. That makes me think (but I'm not sure so I'm going to ask) that some atheists do buy into some superstitions, is that right?

In my experience and vicarious observation (TV programmes, books etc) superstition is universal when there is nothing to realistically replace it as a world view. Consider a dream. What is it? Is it a memory, message or hallucination? Consider the noises one can hear in the jungle at night. What makes those noses and why? Consider the wish fulfilment of eternal life and the emotional links with ancestors amplified by the fear of death. The Chinese are particularly well know for their worship and veneration of ancestors. Consider also the effect writing had on folk superstitions. People could attempt to create a common interpretation of their superstitions which they could pass on and reinforce with each generation. Most isolated tribal societies appear to have a pantheistic and animist view of the supernatural where lots of little spirits each have a little bit to do with how the world works. They are not a 'higher power' as such, just an explanation for the day to day coincidences our minds view as cause and effect (our perpetual pattern matching mind).

Mix tribalism, politics and alpha-male power play  with superstition and one has all the ingredients for selfish (at the personal and group level) behaviour. If a group can delude itself that they are right and justified in their actions because they have a divine authority to support them that group can justify any behaviour they want. When God is on your side nothing, absolutly nothing, inhibits the behaviour of the individual within the group.  So institutionalised superstition becomes the norm and childhood respect for adult authority binds the generations to the dogma of the particular belief. Orthopraxy (dogma of behaviour) defines the group (all men have beards all ladies a vail) and becomes the norm and thus defines the 'us' and the 'them'.

Superstition has been universal in human history and when institutionalised into religion. However there is another human trait, curiosity, which is the antithesis of superstition. It is the drive to discover, to explore and to learn about what is really going on. I would contend that science is institutionalised curiosity. Knowledge always trumps superstition in the end, it might take a while to do to as it's quick, cheap and easy to say 'goddidiit' while it is slow, expensive and hard work to discover the Earth orbits the Sun. Superstition has always been the glib easy answer in my opinion.

So are some atheists superstitious? I would think so simply because we are each unique and a mix of ideas and motivations. Would I expect an atheist to be less superstitious than a theist? Probably I would because the vast majority of atheists I have met online and in real life are not superstitious, in fact the only superstitious atheist I know is my wife! She still has a residual enjoyment of the superstitious and visits mediums and watches John Edwards. She reads tarot cards as well.

I hope that rambling post had something useful in it!

[Being_Brave]

Thanks Tank.

[jduster]

welcome.

it's very good that you are fair and open minded

i must commend you for that

[Islador]

Welcome and first question!

What is your stance on homosexuality?

[Heretical Rants]

Welcome and first question!

What is your stance on homosexuality?

That is an odd first question.

For balance, what is your stance on heterosexuality?

[Islador]

Welcome and first question!

What is your stance on homosexuality?

That is an odd first question.

For balance, what is your stance on heterosexuality?

I do not consider other peoples sexual orientation to be any of my business and neither do I hold any prejudice against those of any given sexual orientation, heterosexuality included. I only ask because you mentioned you were Catholic and I was wondering if you allow your religion to dictate your stance on issues or not?

[Being_Brave]

Welcome and first question!

What is your stance on homosexuality?

That is an odd first question.

For balance, what is your stance on heterosexuality?

I do not consider other peoples sexual orientation to be any of my business and neither do I hold any prejudice against those of any given sexual orientation, heterosexuality included. I only ask because you mentioned you were Catholic and I was wondering if you allow your religion to dictate your stance on issues or not?

I have three "best" friends: my sister, a "BFF" (Baptist children's minister), and a gay man.

I like to think the three of them keep me generally as balanced as I can be. Personally, I don't care if someone is attracted to the same gender or not, and I don't feel like it's a "choice". I think you're just born how you're born, and the only choice you have is to have sex or not. When my friend first came out he told me that if he had a choice he would be attracted to women and he'd tried, but that they grossed him out. I'm straight, so I can certainly see the attraction to men . Our relationship is solid because we know where we stand with each other on the topic, and we just leave it at that. We respect each other enough not to put the other down for what we feel is right or wrong. He knows that I'll always love him because he is a good, kind person, but that I don't like the idea of him with a man. Vice-versa, I know that he'll always be there for me, and that it's not my place to tell him how or what to do.

The actual teaching of the CC isn't that homosexuals are evil, but I have a feeling the "official" teaching may have the same response anyways:

Homosexual desires, however, are not in themselves sinful. People are subject to a wide variety of sinful desires over which they have little direct control, but these do not become sinful until a person acts upon them, either by acting out the desire or by encouraging the desire and deliberately engaging in fantasies about acting it out. People tempted by homosexual desires, like people tempted by improper heterosexual desires, are not sinning until they act upon those desires in some manner.

The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. "

...but also teaches that the act of homosexual sex is a sin and can not be approved. I.e. "Love the sinner not the sin."

((When I was in college I read a study in a sociology class of twin boys, one of whose circumcision was botched so badly that his entire penis was cut off. His parents chose to raise him as female (with horrible guidance from their doctors). Eventually their "girl" came out as lesbian to them...that study proved to me that sexual attraction is something that can not be "helped". Because of the emotional and mental trauma caused by "therapy" and family pressure, both twins committed suicide. If that's not a story that PROVES the negative impact of trying to change a person I don't know what is.))