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Started by Huxley, July 26, 2006, 01:09:28 AM

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Recusant

#195
Ignoring the problems (and there are plenty of those) with what you said in your attempted defense of the "great flood" story, Earthling, I'd like to ask you to explain to me how all of the salt water fish survived the huge drop in salinity of the oceans that would have occurred, and how the fresh water fish survived their immersion in a much saltier environment than they were equipped to deal with. It seems to me that unless there were a large number of aquariums aboard the ark, the only fish that would have survived the osmotic shock induced by the flood would have been those adapted to a brackish environment.

It's clear to me that the only way for a believer to accept the flood story is to ignore science, and rely on the miraculous intervention of YHVH. He would have needed to perform some serious direct manipulation of the physical world, making multiple adjustments to reality to produce the world we presently inhabit, while at the same time petulantly wiping out almost all life on the planet in a fit of divine pique.
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Stev13jay

Quote from: Whitney on July 16, 2006, 02:45:37 PM
I was bored and answering yahoo questions...one came up about Noah's ark so I decided to do a little math:

"Noah's Ark was taller than a 3-story building and had a deck area the size of 36 lawn tennis courts. Its length was 300 cubits (450 feet, or 135 meters); its width was 50 cubits (75 feet, or 22.5 meters); it had three stories and its height was 30 cubits (45 feet, or 13.5 meters)."
http://www.users.bigpond.com/rdoolan/arksize.html

Even at that size, it would not be able to hold the diversity of life we see today...even if they were all babies:

"The United Nations Environment Programme's Global Biodiversity Assessment is often cited, which estimates the number of described species at approximately 1.75 million. One study done by prominent biologist E.O. Wilson and others estimate known species at approximately 1.4 million, while another study estimates the number at approximately 1.5 million."
http://www.enviroliteracy.org/article.php/58.html

That also doesn't include what these creatures would have eaten (many of which are meat eaters) or where their waste would go and how Noah's family could have possibly kept up with feeding and cleaning. Plus, add in that there were 7 of each 'clean' animal and 7 of each "birds of the air".

Now, someone trying to defend the Noah story could say that Noah didn't have to bring ocean creatures into the ark...but it would have been necessary. As the rain fell it would have quickly changed the salinity (salt content) of all bodies of water. Fresh and Salt water creatures would not be able to survive under such conditions.

Someone could also say that 'kind' isn't the same as species, however that would require accepting evolution. Also, even with just taking 'kinds' of animals, they still wouldn't all fit on the ark and some of them would try to eat the others. http://www.answersingenesis.org/... claims that 16,000 individual animals would be on-board the ark (of coarse, they also think dinosaurs would have been on the ark...lol)

Here's an idea of why they wouldn't fit. We first have to remember that the animals couldn't just be crammed in with each other...they need some space. So, assuming that on average they would need 10sf of space per animal. (this is probably a low estimate..especially if dinosaurs are included). The ark is 450ft by 75ft..that's 33,750 sft per floor. Divide that by 10sf and get 3,370 then take 3,370 and multiply by 3 levels (they can't use the roof because of the weather) and we have room for only about 7,200 individual animals (give or take a thousand since I didn't actually calculate how much average room an animal would take up...it was just an estimate).

More about the myth:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/oldearth2.htm
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html
http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/6flood.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_proof1.htm
http://www.mystae.com/restricted/stream ... flood.html
http://www.tccsa.tc/articles/wyatt.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_noah.htm

Also one on continental drift (how far can a land animal swim?)
http://www.historyoftheuniverse.com/cdmovie.html

Well I've been saying the same thing less math but that is just not possible ill have to use your math from now on also someone else posted about the pressure ill have to add it on to my debates. Thanks everyone and I want to say I share the same opinion with all of you.

envilid

#197
Quote from: Jassman on July 17, 2006, 04:16:45 AM
I always tell people that the Noah story is stupid because of facts like this.

Also, after it had been raining for 5 days or so, didn't anyone else decide to build their own boat before they drowned?

And no one else had built their own boat before hand? I mean no one owned a boat?

Also man the smell of ammonia and shit would be terrible in there...

And if God is omnipotent (nothing impossible for him to do) couldn't he just insta kill everyone.
Question everything.

Sweetdeath

Quote from: envilid on December 30, 2011, 04:46:59 PM
Quote from: Jassman on July 17, 2006, 04:16:45 AM
I always tell people that the Noah story is stupid because of facts like this.

Also, after it had been raining for 5 days or so, didn't anyone else decide to build their own boat before they drowned?

And no one else had built their own boat before hand? I mean no one owned a boat?

Also man the smell of ammonia and shit would be terrible in there...

And if God is omnipotent (nothing impossible for him to do) couldn't he just insta kill everyone.

Nahh, he enjoyed watching his little creations struggle til their final gasps. :D
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

Twentythree

I just wanted to weigh in on the geological side. Where did all the water go. Even if we melted all the ice locked up in the ice caps it would not be enough to flood every dry piece of earth on the planet. so in order for the earth to be covered in water that excess water had to go someplace. Water does not just vanish, it becomes vapor clouds or ice. Where is all the extra water?

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/spaceart/earthicefree.jpg

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/environment/waterworld.html

Sweetdeath

Quote from: Twentythree on December 30, 2011, 06:59:58 PM
I just wanted to weigh in on the geological side. Where did all the water go. Even if we melted all the ice locked up in the ice caps it would not be enough to flood every dry piece of earth on the planet. so in order for the earth to be covered in water that excess water had to go someplace. Water does not just vanish, it becomes vapor clouds or ice. Where is all the extra water?

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/spaceart/earthicefree.jpg

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/environment/waterworld.html

Bleh, facts!! Facts , reason, and logic are the tools of the devil.

J/k

I totally bring that up in my argument as well. There is not enough water to flood to such capacity. But religious morons don't wanna hear it.
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

The Magic Pudding

Quote from: Twentythree on December 30, 2011, 06:59:58 PM
I just wanted to weigh in on the geological side.

He just shrunk the earth allowing water to cover the earth, then he returned it to its original size.
Honestly, some of you are so narrow minded.

Twentythree

Quote from: The Magic Pudding on December 31, 2011, 01:04:28 AM
Quote from: Twentythree on December 30, 2011, 06:59:58 PM
I just wanted to weigh in on the geological side.

He just shrunk the earth allowing water to cover the earth, then he returned it to its original size.
Honestly, some of you are so narrow minded.

great point and to the same effect he could have just..."Honey, I Blew up the Water!"

Mocha Chief

Makes alot of sense. Glad I decided to read this thread

fester30

Quote from: Twentythree on December 30, 2011, 06:59:58 PM
I just wanted to weigh in on the geological side. Where did all the water go. Even if we melted all the ice locked up in the ice caps it would not be enough to flood every dry piece of earth on the planet. so in order for the earth to be covered in water that excess water had to go someplace. Water does not just vanish, it becomes vapor clouds or ice. Where is all the extra water?

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/spaceart/earthicefree.jpg

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/environment/waterworld.html

Perhaps it went back through the floodgates to the other side of the firmament where it came from.  Remember, the skies aren't just atmosphere dwindling into space, but an actual firmament separating the seas.

Icarus

Stumbled across a Holy Jesus video that proves the validity of Genesis, the Ark, and a lot more.  A fun video if you are at leisure and have an ample supply of a reliable antacid.  Some of it is humorous but do keep the Pepto Bismol handy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTqA4iWgglE  Bill Maher is marginally involved. Have fun all. 

The vid is a long one but you can skim it to find the high spots. This is a reminder for the ancient admonition: "Know thine enemy".