Glad to be here!

[zandurian]

Hello all,

I'm basically here to discuss and learn about others views (and particularly atheists views) on life and morality and on building a better world in a practical way. The best label I can find to describe my view of spiritual and physical reality is "panentheist" which (if your not familiar) basically says that although the Creator transcends creation the Creator also is immanent in creation.

That said - I am not into the study of ancient (or modern) religions related to panentheism but just use the definition of the word itself to describe my world view.

I've lived in the bible belt (South Texas) my whole life and actually worked many years with Christian churches and outreaches to the poor and also provide music and sound services for charitable and commercial events.

I'm walking a fine line right now because a few years ago I finally spoke up (big time!) on my disgust with hell doctrine and such which is so prevalent in some evangelical circles. I've actually lost some work over it and am sort of experiencing the protestant equivalent of an "excommunication" right now.  

[LoneMateria]

 

Welcome to the forum.  I've never heard of Panentheism before and it looks like a shoot-off of pantheism from what I can tell.  Start a thread about what you want to discuss and people will go to it.  I'm interested in what people believe and why, and it's always nice to learn about a new belief (even though I probably won't agree with it).  Why do you believe Panentheism to be correct or at least your personal view of it?

From the rest of your post it seems that you have a lot in common with atheists.  Many atheists are anti-superstition/myth/etc.. and are often times interested in myth origins.  Many of us advocate separation of church and state and are human rights advocates (i think we can all agree that slavery is bad but i'm not sure how you advocate it or how it applies to daily society, that would be an interesting thread).

Anyway welcome again to the forum and I hope you enjoy your time here.

[zandurian]

 
Welcome to the forum.  

Thanks for the warm welcome.

I've never heard of Panentheism before and it looks like a shoot-off of pantheism from what I can tell.  

As I understand it Pantheism is more in line with the strict atheist view that the physical universe is all there is and for lack of anything else to call "God" is considered to be the ultimate supreme "being". Panentheism maintains that there is an unseen (ie: spiritual) force which transcends the physical universe although (in opposition to orthodox Christian doctrine) the physical universe cannot be separated from the Creator as all things exist within the Creator.

Start a thread about what you want to discuss and people will go to it.  I'm interested in what people believe and why, and it's always nice to learn about a new belief (even though I probably won't agree with it).  Why do you believe Panentheism to be correct or at least your personal view of it?

I had a transcendent experience in my youth (age 20) which changed everything. At some point in the future (after folks get to know me better) maybe I'll put my story up for review. Should be interesting.

From the rest of your post it seems that you have a lot in common with atheists.

Atheists are so demonized in evangelical circles and honestly - I hung around some of those folks for so long that I bought into the hype a little. Since I got booted out (for heresy) and got away from that group think environment I soon realized the exact same unselfish love and common morality touted as being exclusive to Christianity (yeah right :eek: Nuts! That's why I'm curious to exactly how the majority of atheists view morality. I understand there is no 'creed' for this - but just to see what the general consensus is.

(i think we can all agree that slavery is bad but i'm not sure how you advocate it or how it applies to daily society, that would be an interesting thread).

There are literally millions of slaves in the world today and it can and must be stopped. I'm learning what can be done about it and will start a thread about it.

Anyway welcome again to the forum and I hope you enjoy your time here.

Looking forward to sharing ideas!

[LoneMateria]

As I understand it Pantheism is more in line with the strict atheist view that the physical universe is all there is and for lack of anything else to call "God" is considered to be the ultimate supreme "being". Panentheism maintains that there is an unseen (ie: spiritual) force which transcends the physical universe although (in opposition to orthodox Christian doctrine) the physical universe cannot be separated from the Creator as all things exist within the Creator.

Okay thanks for clearing it up some.  I don't agree with the notion that the physical universe is a creator, because in this context "creator" implies intelligence... is your position that the "creator" is intelligent?  I would say that we are made from the universe just not created.  Anyway this is still an interesting belief and i'm interested in learning more.  

I had a transcendent experience in my youth (age 20) which changed everything. At some point in the future (after folks get to know me better) maybe I'll put my story up for review. Should be interesting.

Well i'd be interested in hearing it.  If you want I could tell you how I became an atheist ^_^ ... its pretty boring though :hmm: !) was also found in atheists. It's kind of confirmation to what I've always known. I'm now a bit of an outcast, even in my own family and It hurts a bit but I don't care - I'll sacrifice anything (I hope) to be true to my convictions as I am of much lesser value to others when being dishonest.    [/quote]  

I'm sure atheists are demonized by evangelicals.  Only the apologists every really confront us everyone else is too scared.  I've honestly never been in those type of circles before.  What's it like to be in that type of delusional state?  This reminds me of Dan Barker's book, "Godless: how an evangelical preacher became one of america's leading atheists".  He goes through his whole deconversion story and its great.  I'd recommend reading it if you haven't.  

Even I am a believer in God I also believe the government needs to stay the hell out of religion! Recipe for disaster. Freedom is EVERYTHING. Christianity and Islam (through a belief in the devil) believes that if government doesn't enforce morality the whole world will turn into one big satanic orgy or something.   Nuts! That's why I'm curious to exactly how the majority of atheists view morality. I understand there is no 'creed' for this - but just to see what the general consensus is.

I think the late George Carlin said it best, "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death. "

I'm pretty sure someone has done an absolute morality thread or an objective morality thread.  I don't think I participated in them (wasn't a member at the time).  

There are literally millions of slaves in the world today and it can and must be stopped. I'm learning what can be done about it and will start a thread about it.

I heard a few years ago that there are more slaves today then when slavery was legal in the U.S. and U.K.

[zandurian]

As I understand it Pantheism is more in line with the strict atheist view that the physical universe is all there is and for lack of anything else to call "God" is considered to be the ultimate supreme "being".

Okay thanks for clearing it up some.  I don't agree with the notion that the physical universe is a creator, because in this context "creator" implies intelligence... is your position that the "creator" is intelligent?  I would say that we are made from the universe just not created.  Anyway this is still an interesting belief and i'm interested in learning more.  

Again - to further clarify: "Pantheism" AKA "All is God" is generally the belief that only the physical universe exists and does not necessarily denote any kind of intelligence or special creative power. Maybe what throws people off is the actual term "theism" being in the word. It basically redefines the word "God" to mean "the entirety of the physical universe" as opposed to the religious use of the word "God".

As opposed to "Panentheism" which says all the physical universe is part of a transcendent greater unseen intelligent force - which is my personal belief and experience.  

I had a transcendent experience in my youth (age 20) which changed everything. At some point in the future (after folks get to know me better) maybe I'll put my story up for review. Should be interesting.

Well i'd be interested in hearing it.  If you want I could tell you how I became an atheist ^_^ ... its pretty boring though :hmm: !) was also found in atheists. It's kind of confirmation to what I've always known. I'm now a bit of an outcast, even in my own family and It hurts a bit but I don't care - I'll sacrifice anything (I hope) to be true to my convictions as I am of much lesser value to others when being dishonest.    

I'm sure atheists are demonized by evangelicals.  Only the apologists every really confront us everyone else is too scared.  I've honestly never been in those type of circles before.  What's it like to be in that type of delusional state?   [/quote]  
Well, it's group think at it's worst. They show these statistics about how all the atheists want to destroy God and destroy morality and how MM O'hare destroyed the country by having prayer removed from schools etc etc. When people believe in a literal personal devil and eternal hell then of course - it's very disturbing to them. Scary stuff.

Most of the groups I worked with were just 'regular' sweet helpful loving Christians. Non-judgemental, helpful to all, I do not wish to demonize the whole bunch as my experience was LARGELY very positive. But when the right wing Christian political thing got going in earnest things got CRAZY (from the general leadership) and I had to get out.

This reminds me of Dan Barker's book, "Godless: how an evangelical preacher became one of america's leading atheists".  He goes through his whole deconversion story and its great.  I'd recommend reading it if you haven't.  

I'll check that out. I have read a little about him.

Even I am a believer in God I also believe the government needs to stay the hell out of religion! Recipe for disaster. Freedom is EVERYTHING. Christianity and Islam (through a belief in the devil) believes that if government doesn't enforce morality the whole world will turn into one big satanic orgy or something.  

I'm pretty sure someone has done an absolute morality thread or an objective morality thread.  I don't think I participated in them (wasn't a member at the time).  

I'll look around for one...

There are literally millions of slaves in the world today and it can and must be stopped. I'm learning what can be done about it and will start a thread about it.

I heard a few years ago that there are more slaves today then when slavery was legal in the U.S. and U.K.

The good news is that slavery in technically illegal worldwide. The bad news is that many governments turn a blind eye to practices which basically put folks into forced labor even though it is illegal. Bribes, greed - you know, the general corruption issue. We can help by not buying products made by the exploitation those poor folks. I'll get some specific practical info up here soon.  

[LoneMateria]

Again - to further clarify: "Pantheism" AKA "All is God" is generally the belief that only the physical universe exists and does not necessarily denote any kind of intelligence or special creative power. Maybe what throws people off is the actual term "theism" being in the word. It basically redefines the word "God" to mean "the entirety of the physical universe" as opposed to the religious use of the word "God".

As opposed to "Panentheism" which says all the physical universe is part of a transcendent greater unseen intelligent force - which is my personal belief and experience.  

Ahh okay okay now I understand it.  Much clearer thank you.

 

I'd love to here it. I was raised a Christian and deconverted as a teen - spent a few years as an atheist, so I relate very well to deconversions!

Okay well were pretty similar then.  My dad is presbyterian and my step mom is Catholic (never knew my mom so I don't know what her religion is).  My step mom went to church more then my dad ... she wen't about 3 or 4 times a year ... and i've never seen my dad in church.  The majority of my personal religious experience was when my grandma would take me to church when I was a kid (she lived in Michigan so it was a few times during the summer).  I mostly stayed in the back and hung out with my friend.  Anyway I stopped going up north when I was 12 and I went to  church ... maybe once since then for service (southern baptist friend took me) and a few times for weddings.  Religion was never really pressed on me.  When I started high school my friend was an atheist ... but I didn't know.  About halfway through my sophomore year I was staying at his house and he asked me a few religion questions.  He asked me why I believed in God and such.  I never thought about it and I didn't know how to answer.  I thought about it for a while and decided that I had no good reason to believe in a god.  So I called myself an atheist for a while.  I started a job when I was 16 and called myself agnostic because it didn't have the stigmas attached.  I soon realized that agnosticism is just weak atheism and so I started calling myself an atheist again.  This is pretty much my story.

Well, it's group think at it's worst. They show these statistics about how all the atheists want to destroy God and destroy morality and how MM O'hare destroyed the country by having prayer removed from schools etc etc. When people believe in a literal personal devil and eternal hell then of course - it's very disturbing to them. Scary stuff.

Is there really any thinking involved?  Are pastors providing the misinformation and its all just dogma?

Most of the groups I worked with were just 'regular' sweet helpful loving Christians. Non-judgemental, helpful to all, I do not wish to demonize the whole bunch as my experience was LARGELY very positive. But when the right wing Christian political thing got going in earnest things got CRAZY (from the general leadership) and I had to get out.

You said you got the equivalent of excommunication right?  Those same loving Christians liked you because of a pretense(you believe) and when it was no longer valid (you no longer believe) they no longer liked you.  Am I right?  This is common amongst the atheist community.  Religion is very divisive and it creates an "us and them" scenario and when someone breaks from religious circles they are often times shunned because you are no longer with them.  

I'll check that out. I have read a little about him.

Yeah Dan's story is very good.  He used to make religious music when he was a preacher which he still gets royalties for today (such as the C.  He lost a ton of money though since he essentially gave his music away and others made a fortune off of it.  He thought it was his duty when he was an evangelist ... and now he wishes he'd have charged [/quote]

Cool.  I look forward to reading some info on it.

[zandurian]

Well, it's group think at it's worst. They show these statistics about how all the atheists want to destroy God and destroy morality and how MM O'hare destroyed the country by having prayer removed from schools etc etc. When people believe in a literal personal devil and eternal hell then of course - it's very disturbing to them. Scary stuff.

Is there really any thinking involved?  Are pastors providing the misinformation and its all just dogma?

Well, the history is quite dramatic as Madalyn Murray O'Hair's 1963 lawsuit basically opened the door for the banning of school prayer right when the cold war was escalating and Americans were terrified of communism and atheism (and NUKES!) since the USSR was communist and religion was banned there. Many current pastors were teens in the 60's and 70s when all this hype was going on and that whole scenario made a deep deep impression. Really though - the ROOT of the militant passion to fight atheism and to have Christianity in government etc. is the belief that all atheists and non-Christians are going to hell. So in their minds - surely if they care for you (as an atheist) and love your soul at all they will fight against your beliefs (for your own good)  and the good of those you may influence. It all makes a sort of sense if you put yourself in their mindset. It's a terrifying place to be.    

Most of the groups I worked with were just 'regular' sweet helpful loving Christians. Non-judgemental, helpful to all, I do not wish to demonize the whole bunch as my experience was LARGELY very positive. But when the right wing Christian political thing got going in earnest things got CRAZY (from the general leadership) and I had to get out.

You said you got the equivalent of excommunication right?  Those same loving Christians liked you because of a pretense(you believe) and when it was no longer valid (you no longer believe) they no longer liked you.  Am I right?  This is common amongst the atheist community.  

Actually my close Christian friends are concerned but treat me well and we are still friends, although things are a bit strange at times. They are top notch people and we have been through a lot together and a few have even sought my counsel concerning some of THEIR questions about Christian doctrine - particularly eternal hell doctrine. It's the leadership who were forced to take a stand on my position that God is not punishing anyone for 'sin' (AKA 'not being perfect') in this life or the afterlife). That is considered very very dangerous heresy.  lol. [/quote]
There is SO MUCH B.S. going on in Christian media (TV) and with traveling evangelists and so on it's ridiculous. Especially TBN    

[Tom62]

Welcome to the forum, Zandurian. To be honest, I'd never heard of Panentheism before. After I ). When I was approx. 12 years old, I lost my faith in the Christian believe-system. The idea that God, the Son and the Holy Spirit would only be interested in the ape-descended beings of this small planet, located somewhere in the outskirts of the universe, sounded preposterous to me at that time. By then, I started to believe, that if there was a God, he (she or it) must be much more than the silly Christian caricature of the great Boogieman in the sky. So, I developed the idea that the Universe, with everything in it, was God.

I can't really recall, when I lost my "faith" in the idea of "All is God". When I grew older, I learned that the forces in nature don't really need a "super-human" intelligence to run their course. There was also the problem, that the more I related God to the Universe (Life and Everything   ) the more abstract he (she or it) became. I also found it hard to believe that, this God could be the source of any universal morality, because natural forces don't have a need for morals and all  the morals (that I were taught), came from the society that I lived in. Therefore, the idea of of God became less and less relevant to me over time, which basically means that I slowly moved from Panentheism to Atheism (via Apatheism).

My ultimate goal (call me crazy) is to see peace between all people groups and to assist in the continued transformation of society from ancient tribal barbarianism (and current fundamentalism) to mutual respect and co-habitation through helping define universal human goals. Like I said - call me crazy!

I wouldn't call that crazy. What I do believe however, is that theism stands in the way of reaching that goal. Among the different religious sects there is little of no mutual respect and most religions don't respect the views of people who think differently. As long as people are lead by silly myths, superstition, immoral "holy" books and deluded priests, there is little hope of gaining mutual respect and co-habitation.

[zandurian]

Welcome to the forum, Zandurian. To be honest, I'd never heard of Panentheism before. After I ). When I was approx. 12 years old, I lost my faith in the Christian believe-system. The idea that God, the Son and the Holy Spirit would only be interested in the ape-descended beings of this small planet, located somewhere in the outskirts of the universe, sounded preposterous to me at that time. By then, I started to believe, that if there was a God, he (she or it) must be much more than the silly Christian caricature of the great Boogieman in the sky. So, I developed the idea that the Universe, with everything in it, was God.

I can't really recall, when I lost my "faith" in the idea of "All is God". When I grew older, I learned that the forces in nature don't really need a "super-human" intelligence to run their course. There was also the problem, that the more I related God to the Universe (Life and Everything  :idea:      )
 
If taken on it's own and not tacked on to any existing creed (I think Muslims are largely Panentheistic  

Anyway sorry for the loooong explanation needed - but at least you won't forget me now!

Thanks for telling your story. I actually lost all faith in Christianity per-say or any other God concept at a similar age as you did simply because of what you described - I saw no evidence whatsoever of any Creator. And in fact if I looked around at the state of the world I was sure that if there was a creator 'he' was a bad character to let/cause all this to happen. I went straight to atheism. So I am TOTALLY sympathetic with the atheist view.

I wouldn't call that crazy. What I do believe however, is that theism stands in the way of reaching that goal. Among the different religious sects there is little of no mutual respect and most religions don't respect the views of people who think differently. As long as people are lead by silly myths, superstition, immoral "holy" books and deluded priests, there is little hope of gaining mutual respect and co-habitation.

I am anti-religion - especially creedal religion and (of course) what you're saying about the present state of religion is so true. But I don't see theism per-say as the obstacle anymore than I see atheism as the great catalyst to bring world peace. For now I'll just say that humans with empathy and conscience (of any ethnicity or any religion/non religion) are the answer.

The ultimate moral standard (AISI) is treating others as yourself and being willing to sacrifice and suffer for the benefit of others.

I would say the minimum moral standard should be "Live and let live" as empathy and self sacrifice for another cannot be externally imposed. Agreed?

I also agree with your assessments about myth, superstition and literal "Word of God" writings and the like. I am constantly in a tussle with my Christian friends about this and hopefully am making some headway.  

[LoneMateria]

Is there really any thinking involved?  Are pastors providing the misinformation and its all just dogma?

Well, the history is quite dramatic as Madalyn Murray O'Hair's 1963 lawsuit basically opened the door for the banning of school prayer right when the cold war was escalating and Americans were terrified of communism and atheism (and NUKES!) since the USSR was communist and religion was banned there. Many current pastors were teens in the 60's and 70s when all this hype was going on and that whole scenario made a deep deep impression. Really though - the ROOT of the militant passion to fight atheism and to have Christianity in government etc. is the belief that all atheists and non-Christians are going to hell. So in their minds - surely if they care for you (as an atheist) and love your soul at all they will fight against your beliefs (for your own good)  and the good of those you may influence. It all makes a sort of sense if you put yourself in their mindset. It's a terrifying place to be.    

This wasn't really what I was asking.  I wanted to know if people come to this conclusion on their own or do the higher-ups bring this up and try to demonize atheists ... or something else?  And O'Hair's removed mandatory prayer from school.  In those days you were required to pray which would be a blatant violation of separation of church and state today (and probably back then).  Today in school kids can pray wherever they want whenever they want (permitted they aren't doing it in a way that distracts class) but teachers or other authority figures cannot lead them in prayer or force any kid to pray like they were able to in O'Hair's days.

Actually my close Christian friends are concerned but treat me well and we are still friends, although things are a bit strange at times. They are top notch people and we have been through a lot together and a few have even sought my counsel concerning some of THEIR questions about Christian doctrine - particularly eternal hell doctrine. It's the leadership who were forced to take a stand on my position that God is not punishing anyone for 'sin' (AKA 'not being perfect') in this life or the afterlife). That is considered very very dangerous heresy.  :upset: . I better stop before I go into a raging screaming rant!!! After all - I am a happy theist peacelover      

I don't watch it so I don't know.  

Do you mean "after his de-conversion"? Well - now I'll have to read it and find out what you mean!  

yeah his de-conversion from Christianity or his conversion to atheism however you like to look at it.  I don't see that much of a difference so I use them interchangeably.

[zandurian]

This wasn't really what I was asking.  I wanted to know if people come to this conclusion on their own or do the higher-ups bring this up and try to demonize atheists ... or something else?  

It just kind of permeates the American Christian culture.

And O'Hair's removed mandatory prayer from school.  In those days you were required to pray which would be a blatant violation of separation of church and state today (and probably back then).  Today in school kids can pray wherever they want whenever they want (permitted they aren't doing it in a way that distracts class) but teachers or other authority figures cannot lead them in prayer or force any kid to pray like they were able to in O'Hair's days.  

Yes, it was a blatant violation. The reason I brought the whole thing up is because I was a preteen in the 60s and experienced the phenomenon. There were even Christian scare movies - very graphic. I remember one movie they showed at church where the atheist/communist Soviets invaded America and rounded up and routinely slaughtered all the Christians if they would not denounce Jesus. One young brave schoolboy would not recant and they drove a pencil through his head!  

Do you mean "after his de-conversion"? Well - now I'll have to read it and find out what you mean!  

yeah his de-conversion from Christianity or his conversion to atheism however you like to look at it.  I don't see that much of a difference so I use them interchangeably.

Understood.

[LoneMateria]

Yes, it was a blatant violation. The reason I brought the whole thing up is because I was a preteen in the 60s and experienced the phenomenon. There were even Christian scare movies - very graphic. I remember one movie they showed at church where the atheist/communist Soviets invaded America and rounded up and routinely slaughtered all the Christians if they would not denounce Jesus. One young brave schoolboy would not recant and they drove a pencil through his head! People my age raised the Christian children who are fresh out of college about now so the paranoia is passed on.        

For some reason that does not surprise me.  This sounds like dogma at its finest.  Well i'm glad you took the risk of having a pencil stabbed in your head when you stopped being a Christian.

[G-Roll]

This is the most educational welcome I have ever seen. I just stopped by to say hello. I have heard of pantheists/ism but I admit this is the first I have really experienced of it. Gotta love the interweb!
Anyways welcome.

[zandurian]

This is the most educational welcome I have ever seen. I just stopped by to say hello. I have heard of pantheists/ism but I admit this is the first I have really experienced of it. Gotta love the interweb!
Anyways welcome.

 :blink:  
Thanks for the welcome...

[Renegnicat]

Hello Zandurian. I'm sorry I missed this thread until just now. Welcome.